Do you support female pastors?

[Arch65]

I firmly believe that women should be pastors. I have found in my professional life that women make good managers. I think that women are equal to men when it comes to leadership and teaching roles.
Maybe if there are more women in leadership and mentor roles in our societies, then things may progress toward a more peaceful world. Men have been running things hitherto – look at all the conflict that has been.

 

[superdave5221]

I firmly believe that women should be pastors. I have found in my professional life that women make good managers. I think that women are equal to men when it comes to leadership and teaching roles.
Maybe if there are more women in leadership and mentor roles in our societies, then things may progress toward a more peaceful world. Men have been running things hitherto – look at all the conflict that has been.

If we were going to assume that your observations and opinions are superior in wisdom to God's, then by all means, we would follow your advice.

My heart tells me however, that God's wisdom is much greater than man's, and in ALL cases, we should seek His wisdom, rather than our own. A portion of God's wisdom has been revealed to us, and can be found in the Holy Scriptures. That is where you will find the correct answers to your questions, not in your personal experiences and biased opinions.

 

[distinctiveministry]

A question for those who have written responses already in which they oppose the pastoral leadership of women on the basis of scripture...

Is there EVER a time when a woman's pastoral leadership should be tolerated or even accepted?

 

[superdave5221]

A question for those who have written responses already in which they oppose the pastoral leadership of women on the basis of scripture...

Is there EVER a time when a woman's pastoral leadership should be tolerated or even accepted?

I can't think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me, using scripture to back up your claims.

Our God is a god of order, not chaos. Throughout the N.T. you will see patterns, (Gr. tupos) for Christian living. There is a pattern for church government, clearly established in the 1st century church. That pattern is similar to the Christian family. Jesus is the husband, and the church is His bride. Just as Christ is the head of the church, the husband is the head of the family. Just as Christ loves and cares for His church, the husband loves and cares for his wife. Consider the following scripture:

Ephesians 5: 22 http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-48Wives, http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-49be subject to your own husbands, http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-50as to the Lord. 23 For http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-51the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-52head of the church, He Himself http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-53being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-54Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-55gave Himself up for her, 26 http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-56so that He might sanctify her, having http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-57cleansed her by the http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-58washing of water with http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-59the word, 27 that He might http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-60present to Himself the church http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-qin all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing ; but that she would be http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-61holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-62love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself ; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-63members of His http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-64body. 31 http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-65FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32 This mystery is great ; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to http://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-66love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she http://christianchat.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-rhttp://christianchat.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-67respects her husband.

Perhaps you can explain to me how a God of order would tolerate a system where the husband is head of his wife at home, and yet must submit to her authority in spiritial matters at church!!

 

[distinctiveministry]

I can't think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me, using scripture to back up your claims.

I didn't have any in mind when I asked the question, but had other reasons for asking.

Having said that, do you agree that in order to fully understand and interpret the written scriptures, we do best to be informed of the written context, and also the historical, geographical, and sociological contexts?

 

[superdave5221]

I didn't have any in mind when I asked the question, but had other reasons for asking.

Having said that, do you agree that in order to fully understand and interpret the written scriptures, we do best to be informed of the written context, and also the historical, geographical, and sociological contexts?

Absolutely!! I am not always correct, butI do attempt to use proper exegetical procedure at all times when interpreting scripture. I also try to consider not only the contexts you listed above, but the relationship of the unit of thought to the thematic construct at hand, as well as how it relates to larger contexts within the book at hand, as well as the bible as a whole.

If I have missed something, please show me the error of my ways.

In particular, I would like to know why the question at the end of my last post is irrelevant, and if not, what your answer is.

 

[Arch65]

If we were going to assume that your observations and opinions are superior in wisdom to God's, then by all means, we would follow your advice.

My heart tells me however, that God's wisdom is much greater than man's, and in ALL cases, we should seek His wisdom, rather than our own. A portion of God's wisdom has been revealed to us, and can be found in the Holy Scriptures. That is where you will find the correct answers to your questions, not in your personal experiences and biased opinions.

Hiya Dave, glad to meet you. Thank you for your feedback on my thoughts, it is much appreciated. I am not well read with respect to scripture. I talk from the heart, so to speak. Therefore I am always glad to get feedback from someone better acquainted with scripture than I.

[FONT=&quot]The poll here suggests that what scripture says is perhaps a matter of interpretation. What are your thoughts on this?[/FONT]

 

[superdave5221]

Hiya Dave, glad to meet you. Thank you for your feedback on my thoughts, it is much appreciated. I am not well read with respect to scripture. I talk from the heart, so to speak. Therefore I am always glad to get feedback from someone better acquainted with scripture than I.

[FONT=&quot]The poll here suggests that what scripture says is perhaps a matter of interpretation. What are your thoughts on this?[/FONT]

Hey Arch,

I can see where you might get that impression about scripture being a matter of interpretation. Certainly scripture is used often to defend both ends of opposite views.

You must remember though, that God's Holy Scriptures is the actual Word of God Himself. As such, it has the authority of God Himself. When you read the bible, and see a commandment of God, or Jesus, it is as if they were speaking directly to you. We must therefore make every effort to understand the bible as it was meant to be understood. This requires effort on our part. Effort to spend the time necessary to become literate in the bible. Effort to learn proper hermeneutical principals and proper exegetical application. Effort spent in praying and applying those things that we learn in our lives. Effort spent in developing a relationship with Jesus Christ, and other Christians. Effort in overcoming the effects of sin in our lives. Effort in overcoming the influence of a godless society that creates a bias in our lives towards the things of this world.

It is not the Holy Scriptures themselves that are imperfect. It is sin in our lives that causes us to misinterpret them. It is a hardness of heart, that makes man think that he is more intelligent than God, that causes us to be led astray. I truly believe that, if we approach the scriptures prayerfully, asking God for Truth, living our lives in accordance with our abilities to obey God's commandments, with humbleness of heart, and a true desire to live and apply those truths to our lives, that God will reveal all Truth that we need to know, through His Holy Spirit, to spread the Gospel, bring glory to Him, and result in our salvation.

 

[Arch65]

Thanks for your prompt and detailed response, Dave.


Many who have endeavoured to study the bible and have made great effort in doing so, have the view that women can be a pastor. One example comes from a church local to me. Recently a woman has become a preacher at that church. In fact I know her and I have every confidence that she has studied scripture in great depth. So we have people like your good self who have made great effort to study scripture, and people like the good Mrs.W who have made great effort too. Yet two distinct and opposite views emerge from scripture study. A conclusion could be, that it is a matter of interpretation.


I have another question for you Dave. I know enough about the bible, to know that the Christian religion is the product of a dynamic process. Jesus was a radical who affected progress by overturning established ideas. What are your views on this?

 

[danb]

What part of I suffer a woman not, don't we get. People changing the bible to fit their doctrine?

 

[superdave5221]

Thanks for your prompt and detailed response, Dave.


Many who have endeavoured to study the bible and have made great effort in doing so, have the view that women can be a pastor. One example comes from a church local to me. Recently a woman has become a preacher at that church. In fact I know her and I have every confidence that she has studied scripture in great depth. So we have people like your good self who have made great effort to study scripture, and people like the good Mrs.W who have made great effort too. Yet two distinct and opposite views emerge from scripture study. A conclusion could be, that it is a matter of interpretation.


I have another question for you Dave. I know enough about the bible, to know that the Christian religion is the product of a dynamic process. Jesus was a radical who affected progress by overturning established ideas. What are your views on this?

Unfortunately I don't have time to go into this in depth as I must leave to go out of town. So I will reply in brief and return on monday to answer your reply.

Now as to interpretation. I would say that just about every attempt to prove that women can be pastors has been adequately refuted in this thread, using sound exegetical interpretation. In order to stand on your ground of "matter of interpretation", there must be sound reasoning, using scripture, to support your viewpoint. I haven't seen it in here.

Next, we must look at history. If you look at the pattern (Gr. tupos) of the early church, there were no women elders, none. There were certainly women who could have filled that position. Prisicilla comes to mind. Anyone who is unbiased would have to admit that the Apostles certainly had the inspiration to interpret scripture correctly, (since many of them wrote it), and none of them condoned women elders. An argument that this was because of the culture at the time falls apart in the face of other scriptures, such as the Ephesians 5 scripture I quoted in a previous post.

I have much more to say on this, but I don't have time now. I will continue on monday.

 

[greatkraw]

and dont forget

women have to wear long hair so the angels can tell the difference

 

[Arch65]

That’s OK Dave my friend take you time; I am a patient man.


You are right to point to the absence of scriptural analysis in my posts. There has been none on my part, and there will remain none from me in this particular discussion. This is because for one thing, there are people here far better placed than I to interpret the bible. But the main reason is that I believe that what is at the core of our difference on this matter, is something beyond interpretation of scripture.


I look forward to and I will appreciate your further thoughts on my questions.
Clive


Oh, and do have a pleasant trip to town.

 

[Lifelike]

Christianity: 2.2 billion
Roman Catholicism: 1.166 billion (does not allow female priests)
Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy: 378 million (does not allow female priests)
Protestantism: about 800 million ( which we will assume half of which allow female pastors/priests)

Number of Christians that reject female pastors/priests: 1.944 billion
Number of Christians that accept female pastors/priests: 256 million

Number of Christians that reject female pastors/priests as a percentage: 88.37%
Number of Christians that accept female pastors/priests as a percentage: 11.63%

Does that get my point across? Also note that Roman Catholicism and Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy excommunicate any female who seeks ordination (even though that ordination would be invalid). For an example of Roman Catholicism's tolerance of female priests look up "Roman Catholic Women Priests".

haha
Number of true christians: 1.3 billion (and some wouldnt be from the 2.2 billion cataloged christians)
Number of false Christians: 0.9 billion+

 

[Lifelike]

And actually yes, it does talk about submitting yourself to men who aren't you husband. It says to submit yourselves to one another.

Jesus wouldnt have his bride submit to another man than Himself...

 

[Lifelike]

I can't think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me, using scripture to back up your claims.

Our God is a god of order, not chaos. Throughout the N.T. you will see patterns, (Gr. tupos) for Christian living. There is a pattern for church government, clearly established in the 1st century church.

There was also a pattern for slavery in the 1st century... or should I say in Jesus' time...

 

[superdave5221]

haha
Number of true christians: 1.3 billion (and some wouldnt be from the 2.2 billion cataloged christians)
Number of false Christians: 0.9 billion+

Wow, what inspiration. With all of the controversy over the centuries over doctrinal issues, it is surprising that no one ever thought of a solution untill now.

Instead of exegetical interpretation of God's Holy Scriptures in search of answers, why not just take a poll!!! Better yet, why not just go out and gather a bunch of meaningless statistics, organize them so that they look meaningful and impressive to those who are biblically illiterate, and present them as an alternative to the bible.

Brilliant!!

I'll never have to study the bible again!

Thanks lifelike.

 

[superdave5221]

That’s OK Dave my friend take you time; I am a patient man.


You are right to point to the absence of scriptural analysis in my posts. There has been none on my part, and there will remain none from me in this particular discussion. This is because for one thing, there are people here far better placed than I to interpret the bible. But the main reason is that I believe that what is at the core of our difference on this matter, is something beyond interpretation of scripture.


I look forward to and I will appreciate your further thoughts on my questions.
Clive


Oh, and do have a pleasant trip to town.

Let me just say this Clive. I wish you could prove me wrong on this issue. Because I actually believe that women should be allowed to pastor, and I personally would like to see it. However, not my will but God's will, be done. And the only place we can find God's will, is in His words, either directly, or by inspiration through His Son, or His apostles.

If we can't agree on the authority of God's Holy Scriptures in all matters, then there is little that we can agree on, pertaining to Christianity.

 

[Kathleen]

My two cents:

1 Corinthians 14:34
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent
i belive the bible is very clear on this subject.
For those that say times r changing - this culture and education teaches that homosexuallioty is okai.
does that now mean that because of the way culture is changing that we should then discard the Lords laws against sexual immorality - remembering that the Lord is never changin.

God Bless
Kath

 

[Stand_Up_4_God]

People should really stop taking one or two verses and using them out of context. If they would read on, they would see Paul did not command or state women can't preach, he questioned it. See 1Corinthians 14:36. Should they pastor? NO they should NOT be the head of the church, but preach sure. I know many women that can preach you a way more powerful message than a man. God uses all those willing.