Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

You've asked this to the point of ad nauseam, and have been answered many times already. How many more times do you need to ask and receive the same answer before you stop asking in pretense?

At least one more time......The workers for theme song....

We'll work till Jesus comes, we'll work till Jesus comes, we'll work till Jesus comes and then get cast away!

Why.....because of their motto

His blood will not work, his blood will not work, his blood will not work because we need our works.

Emphasis upon the word WORK AND how Jesus said MANY WILL BOAST OF THEIR WORKS IN HIS NAME THAT THEY TRUST IN.....bit he NEVER KNEW THEM<---they were never saved and came by the ONLY DOOR WHICH IS FAITH ALONE FOR SALVATION

 

[dcontroversal]

Ralph as a kid training for the christianchat forum.

Now that is funny as...........haahaahahahaahahahha

 

[dcontroversal]

How about you?

Is the 'believer' who has no works saved despite having no works because of 'once saved always saved'?

Or is the 'believer' who has no works not really born again?

How about the bible...believers will have EVERY SORT OF WORK from Gold, Silver and Precious Stones to wood, hay and stubble <<---both tried by fire, one rewarded, one loses reward yet BOTH SAVED...get with the picture and facts!

How would you describe David's works with Uriah and Bathsheba.....yet he was saved a man after GOD'S OWN HEART!

 

[joefizz]

How about the bible...believers will have EVERY SORT OF WORK from Gold, Silver and Precious Stones to wood, hay and stubble <<---both tried by fire, one rewarded, one loses reward yet BOTH SAVED...get with the picture and facts!

How would you describe David's works with Uriah and Bathsheba.....yet he was saved a man after GOD'S OWN HEART!

Now d don't bring "sense" into this!

 

[dcontroversal]

It matters tremendously. Are you hesitant to answer because you are well aware that you will be completely exposed as a "works for salvation" advocate?



Yes. The believer is saved even without working because Jesus accomplished all that was required on the cross. A Christian is declared righteous at the moment of belief and can never lose that righteousness, because it is the very righteousness of Jesus that is imputed. As long as Jesus is sinless, so is every believer.



Works play no part in receiving salvation, and they play no part in retaining salvation, because our salvation is a gift that cannot be earned in any way, shape, or form. Works only justify us before men and glorify our Father in heaven. They are also the basis for rewards at the Judgment Seat.

We still have free will and can refuse to work, but by doing so, we invite the chastisement of God, and the forfeiture of rewards.

Amen and thank God...if not for the underlined truth and the other truths listed......all of humanity would be toast <<-like the kind that comes out black because toaster was too high!

 

[dcontroversal]

Now d don't bring "sense" into this!

Well you know I cannot side step truth to continually and dogmatically hold to a false position like the working for I keep myself saved crowd.

 

[joefizz]

Well you know I cannot side step truth to continually and dogmatically hold to a false position like the working for I keep myself saved crowd.

So true,so true,carry on sir.

 

[stonesoffire]

Ralph: There is one sense I agree with you: in this that a true faith will produce works (though to different degrees in different people).

I think you are getting pounded because you come across saying a Christian has to do good works. You can't come across with that kind of emphasis without making works a necessary part of what saves you (and it is not works that brings salvation).

We are saved by grace through faith: then we are God's workmanship. Works are a part of the equation, but are not the cause of our salvation.

Some here would make works seem irrelevant and disconnected to faith (or at least it seems that way to some of the rest of us)!

Paul and James come at faith and works from different angles: but I am convinced that what they say agrees together.

In any public forum on a discussion of faith and works you will find "Pauls" and "James" coming at it from different angles. And then you will have the "hyper" Pauls and the "hyper" James! LOL! - and then probably some that are more than "hyper"

Let each be the judge of his own view! I will let you decide who is where in the spectrum of views!

I did a little reading this morning. Chuck Missler. He said Paul teaches justification before God. James teaches justification before men.

My question then, which really matters?

 

[dcontroversal]

I did a little reading this morning. Chuck Missler. He said Paul teaches justification before God. James teaches justification before men.

My question then, which really matters?

The key to James....SHOW ME.........when we justify something before someone we use facts or proof and that is exactly what James is speaking to...the faith that justifies men before God void of works being seen by men by our works....it has nothing to do with being saved and justified by works before God.....

Therefore we CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <-- Before God

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US <--PAST TENSE

and 1 apple proves it is an apple tree, an apple tree is an apple tree the moment it sprouts LONG BEFORE IT PRODUCES 1 WORK (APPLE) It takes years of growth and maturity before production and may or may not produce an abundance, little or haphazardly based upon weather, rain, drought, disease etc......yet by birth (sprouting from apple seed) it will never be anything but an apple tree.

Same is true of us..born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED ETERNALLY BY THE WORD, POWER AND SPIRIT OF GOD thru faith and JESUS WILL FINISH THE WORK HE BEGAN IN US!

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi all...I am weak at the moment , I can not deny this , and every time someone comes in to rock the boat , I get blown from side to side , maybe because I am on my own apart from my brothers and sisters on CC...

So after a good chat with my brother NNM , who reminds me who I am in Christ , I go back to Scripture where ALL truth is found , and this is why I can always count on my LORD ...Ephesians 2:8–10 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...


1 John 5:13 (NKJV)

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God...


1 Corinthians 3:15 (NKJV)

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire...

As for people who have SO much doubt in what our LORD and Savior has done for us , this is to you , you are in this Scripture 1 John 2:19 (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us...

I am so thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ...Everytime I see someone coming in and trying to destroy what Jesus has done , although they may shake me a little while , my roots stand firm and I grow...Ralph , if you had any idea whatsoever who you are in Christ , you would be delighted in building up , not tearing down...You talk is very smooth , and dangerous for those who are just learning how to stand in our LORD...

I want to give a big thank you to ALL the wonderful warriors who swing their sword mighty high for our LORD , for never bending or allowing yourselves to blow in the wind like myself who at times have been taken in by these smooth talkers...Today my shield has been risen higher , and my sword is up in the air , praise God...In Jesus name Amen...xox...

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi all...I am weak at the moment , I can not deny this , and every time someone comes in to rock the boat , I get blown from side to side , maybe because I am on my own apart from my brothers and sisters on CC...

So after a good chat with my brother NNM , who reminds me who I am in Christ , I go back to Scripture where ALL truth is found , and this is why I can always count on my LORD ...Ephesians 2:8–10 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...


1 John 5:13 (NKJV)

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God...


1 Corinthians 3:15 (NKJV)

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire...

As for people who have SO much doubt in what our LORD and Savior has done for us , this is to you , you are in this Scripture 1 John 2:19 (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us...

I am so thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ...Everytime I see someone coming in and trying to destroy what Jesus has done , although they may shake me a little while , my roots stand firm and I grow...Ralph , if you had any idea whatsoever who you are in Christ , you would be delighted in building up , not tearing down...You talk is very smooth , and dangerous for those who are just learning how to stand in our LORD...

I want to give a big thank you to ALL the wonderful warriors who swing their sword mighty high for our LORD , for never bending or allowing yourselves to blow in the wind like myself who at times have been taken in by these smooth talkers...Today my shield has been risen higher , and my sword is up in the air , praise God...In Jesus name Amen...xox...

His strenght is made complete in our weaknesses...stay strong and keep your eyes on Jesus sister God loves you Rose

 

[ElAmor]

Not bearing fruit is a sin. The question is, do we live in a life of fruitlessness as a matter of lifestyle, like an unbeliever? That is the condition of the person Paul says will not inherit the kingdom. Grace is not a license so we can live in our old lives unchanged and still inherit the kingdom. But that is what many Christians think today. They think once saved always saved makes it so they can be unchanged and they will still be saved when Jesus comes back. They do not know that is the new once saved always saved doctrine. The traditional once saved always saved doctrine says the person who is still in their old life and/or does not endure to the end is not born again to begin with.

I agree and one example is this verse:

New International Version 1984 1 Timothy 5:4-8 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Seohce]

I agree and one example is this verse:

New International Version 1984 1 Timothy 5:4-8 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

New International Version 1984 Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME. They worship me in VAIN; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. ThusYOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

 

[Ralph-]

Everytime I see someone coming in and trying to destroy what Jesus has done , although they may shake me a little while , my roots stand firm and I grow...Ralph , if you had any idea whatsoever who you are in Christ , you would be delighted in building up , not tearing down...You talk is very smooth , and dangerous for those who are just learning how to stand in our LORD...

Your personal failures and struggles with sin will not cause you to lose your salvation. There is only one way you can lose your salvation and you don't strike me as even being close to doing that as far as I can see. You believe in Christ, and it shows. Believers in Christ can not lose their salvation because justification is by faith in Christ, not by the merit of your works. You'll have to walk away from your faith in Christ to put yourself in danger of losing your salvation. And even then God doesn't give up on you that easy. You'll have quite a struggle ahead of you trying to wrest yourself from your faith in Christ.

In this thread, once saved always saved is another subject altogether. I've avoided it because people use it to cloud the facts surrounding the necessity of growth in the Spirit for the saved person (growth being the evidence of the born again experience). Christians will literally hate you for not agreeing with them about once saved always saved doctrine. That alone speaks volumes to me about it and why I have chosen to avoid it.

The problem with once saved always saved doctrine is it is making many people turn the grace of God into a license to sin. They can deny it all they want, but when they say they can freely choose to watch filthy movies, get drunk, have sexual relations outside of marriage, etc. because it doesn't matter to my salvation that is making the grace of God a license to sin. They don't realize what they are doing is showing their unbelief. It is this unbelief that will surely deny them entrance into the kingdom when Jesus comes back if they persist in it. And like I say, I'm sure you are not doing that, or even close to discarding your faith in Christ. You're different, you struggle with sin. I don't see you struggling against righteousness and wanting to go back in unbelief to your old life. See the difference?


I'm sorry if my posts have caused you distress. Just know they are not for you. You believe. You want to know Christ. You want to be different than what you used to be. You are not living in sin, you are struggling with it. Many do live in sin and do not struggle with it but embrace it openly (in the name of grace) and it is to those people that the scriptures I shared apply, whoever they are in this forum. As you say, Christ came through for you in your distress and made you strong because by grace you believe and trust in his love.


As far as the scriptures I've been posting, before you can build an unbeliever up into Christ you have to tear them down first. That's what the condemnation of the law does. It's a necessary part of coming to Christ and growing up into Him. My posts are not directed to you and I and others who are struggling with sin and not openly and willingly living in it thinking grace is a license to do that. They are directed to those who live in sin without a care and who need to die to their flesh so they can be saved when Jesus comes back. They are in the category of the sinning fellow at Corinthian who's flesh Paul said had to die so he could be saved. So just know I'm not addressing believers like you who actually care about living for and serving Christ and want to do that. I'm addressing and calling out those among us who think Christ is their license to carry on without a care in the deeds of the flesh. They are not believers. They deny the grace of God by their lives. They show they do not have it and have denied it.

 

[Ralph-]

How about the bible...believers will have EVERY SORT OF WORK from Gold, Silver and Precious Stones to wood, hay and stubble <<---both tried by fire, one rewarded, one loses reward yet BOTH SAVED...get with the picture and facts!

How would you describe David's works with Uriah and Bathsheba.....yet he was saved a man after GOD'S OWN HEART!

He repented. He did not live in sin and have nothing.

You keep defending the worksless person in the church as being saved using people who had, or eventually had works. So there's no comparison possible to those who repent and have works to show when they get to the judgement.

1 Corinthians 3 can NOT be about living in sin and having no works of righteousness (but being saved nonetheless). If that's what Paul was saying then he is contradicting his own doctrine and that of Jesus, John, and James. And besides, you who love to play the context card, he's talking about works of service in the building and field of Christ. THAT'S WHAT THE PASSAGE IS ABOUT.

 

[preacher4truth]

He repented. He did not live in sin and have nothing.

You keep defending the worksless person in the church as being saved using people who had, or eventually had works.

He didn't defend the "worksless" person, you're misrepresenting what he said. Why not end your lifestyle practice of bearing false witness? Like, repent yourself and show us what it looks like in you? That would be a good start.

 

[BillG]

Hi all...I am weak at the moment , I can not deny this , and every time someone comes in to rock the boat , I get blown from side to side , maybe because I am on my own apart from my brothers and sisters on CC...

So after a good chat with my brother NNM , who reminds me who I am in Christ , I go back to Scripture where ALL truth is found , and this is why I can always count on my LORD ...Ephesians 2:8–10 (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them...


1 John 5:13 (NKJV)

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God...


1 Corinthians 3:15 (NKJV)

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire...

As for people who have SO much doubt in what our LORD and Savior has done for us , this is to you , you are in this Scripture 1 John 2:19 (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us...

I am so thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ...Everytime I see someone coming in and trying to destroy what Jesus has done , although they may shake me a little while , my roots stand firm and I grow...Ralph , if you had any idea whatsoever who you are in Christ , you would be delighted in building up , not tearing down...You talk is very smooth , and dangerous for those who are just learning how to stand in our LORD...

I want to give a big thank you to ALL the wonderful warriors who swing their sword mighty high for our LORD , for never bending or allowing yourselves to blow in the wind like myself who at times have been taken in by these smooth talkers...Today my shield has been risen higher , and my sword is up in the air , praise God...In Jesus name Amen...xox...

Remember Rose,

God does not want your perfection. He wants your heart.

A heart that seeks after him, he will never reject.
A heart that seeks after him, is a heart he can work in.

He loves you so much and he knows you love him as well.
Even when we were not constant he is.

Always remember he is for you all times.

He will work in you and it's he who is perfecting you.

God bless you sis.

 

[Ralph-]

At least one more time......The workers for theme song....

We'll work till Jesus comes, we'll work till Jesus comes, we'll work till Jesus comes and then get cast away!

Why.....because of their motto

His blood will not work, his blood will not work, his blood will not work because we need our works.

And your theme song about grace being a license to sin is the right one?

Everyone who thinks that will be rejected when Jesus comes back for being lawless and will try desperately to gain entry into the kingdom based on their church work, Bible studies, pastoring, boasts of his grace, etc. But he will say 'back off, I don't know you.'

Emphasis upon the word WORK AND how Jesus said MANY WILL BOAST OF THEIR WORKS IN HIS NAME THAT THEY TRUST IN.....bit he NEVER KNEW THEM<---they were never saved and came by the ONLY DOOR WHICH IS FAITH ALONE FOR SALVATION

You don't even see the qualifier in your own words. It's the BOAST of works that Christ will not hear. e did not say he will not discard works of people when he returns.

Works of faith are required for entry into the kingdom because those are the evidence of the faith that justifies and makes you eligible for the kingdom. But you keep assassinating any and ALL works as if you are sinning if you do them. You seem to only be able to see works as you trying to justify yourself when in fact there are the works that faith produces and which you HAVE to have to be saved when Jesus comes back or else you are showing yourself to not even be born again.

It's the BOAST of works that will not save. Not the doing of works. You have to do works to be saved at the Judgment or you are not born again.

 

[Ralph-]

He didn't defend the "worksless" person, you're misrepresenting what he said. Why not end your lifestyle practice of bearing false witness? Like, repent yourself and show us what it looks like in you? That would be a good start.

When are you going to stop lying about what he said? I even posted his own words for you to see. Do you want me to post it again for all to see?

 

[Ralph-]

The key to James....SHOW ME.........when we justify something before someone we use facts or proof and that is exactly what James is speaking to...the faith that justifies men before God void of works being seen by men by our works....it has nothing to do with being saved and justified by works before God.....

Therefore we CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <-- Before God

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US <--PAST TENSE

and 1 apple proves it is an apple tree, an apple tree is an apple tree the moment it sprouts LONG BEFORE IT PRODUCES 1 WORK (APPLE) It takes years of growth and maturity before production and may or may not produce an abundance, little or haphazardly based upon weather, rain, drought, disease etc......yet by birth (sprouting from apple seed) it will never be anything but an apple tree.

Same is true of us..born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED ETERNALLY BY THE WORD, POWER AND SPIRIT OF GOD thru faith and JESUS WILL FINISH THE WORK HE BEGAN IN US!

If you don't have ANY fruit the day you receive the Spirit of God your salvation experience is suspect. No change whatsoever means just that......no change. You don't have the salvation you think you do.