Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Maybe I am dense. Just show me where it says the verb is in the present tense in Romans 6:1. I guess I'm just missing it in the links you provided.

My source says it's in the future tense.




In your little fable here.....I mean.....table (just being funny, lol), how is the last column directly connected to the usage of the word in Romans 6:1 in the source you cite? It's an honest, serious question. Maybe I'm just missing it in the links. I want to know why my source and your source do not agree.

I highly doubt anything you say....and the word translated is given and the tense....PRESENT and the mood--> subjunctive and the VOICE--> Active and the person--> 1st and it is plural...

 

[dcontroversal]

Say! That's a rather LARGE portion of unwarranted condemnation you've dished out there!

AMEN....I almost responded but it would do no good....he would just spin it away and deny......and the funny (sic) thing is the truth that Bill is one of the most decent, honest believers on this site.....

 

[Seohce]

Can you make one post without lying? Show where I said the bolded or be found a liar....end of story, and do not ever address me again if you cannot tell the truth and keep from embellishing what I have said into an accusation filled with lies.....

Did you not say that works are works are works and forgiven is forgiven? I'll be a liar if you did not say that. PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE SINS FORGIVEN is obviously in your man-made doctrine.

1 John 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[dcontroversal]

Did you not say that works are works are works and forgiven is forgiven? I'll be a liar if you did not say that. PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE SINS FORGIVEN is obviously in your man-made doctrine.

1 John 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

See how you operate....leave off the rest of what John writes.....just proves your dishonesty

If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.....

SO....do you have the truth or are you claiming to be sinless...which is it...

My doctrine includes all verses...not just cherry picked verses that support my stance....NONE are sinless and GOD deals with SIN by GRACE in those who have trusted him....maybe you should trust him and admit the truth and not be so terrified of losing that which is unlosable....

 

[stonesoffire]

Blessing Bill,

I am grieved how quickly you dismiss the work Christ has done in your life,
how weak and tossed around in the sea that you are no example for others
to be inspired by. Why do you disown the work you say God has done in
your heart like it is nothing, you are like any other sinner, not worthy to be
listened to or regarded, a hypocrite who fails at too many levels to be a help.

Everyone has their own walk, but leaders are there to demonstrate leadership,
to show the fruit of the very gospel that is preached and to help others in
their need and weakness.

Are leaders, stealing, commiting adultery, lying, self serving, bearing false testimony,
not honouring their parents, dishonouring the word, commiting blasphemy, greedy, self
indulgent individuals. Now some are and have been caught doing exactly that.

But Paul puts a model for leaders and how they are to behave. Or is this part of the
bible been excluded in your version and it would be evil to suggest these standards and
encouragements are of the Lord?

This is not exactly rocket science of church governance and obvious leadership.
Maybe people are so jaded, only hypocrites run churches now!!!!!!!

Maybe this is the level of church ministry you are into. I do not recognise it
unfortunately, and would never be part of church with such unspecified standards.

Be prepared to be judged by the same judgement you mete out to Bill. Or repent.

 

[Seohce]

Is it too much to ask.....honesty.....90% of the time we have to defend what we say because it gets embellished, changed, twisted, things added or completely changed into something we did not say....this thread is about biblical salvation by grace through faith....I get sick of saying the sky is blue only to be accused of saying it is green...because we believe in eternal salvation based upon the work and faith of Christ, and our sins being nailed to the cross while having the righteousness of Christ imputed we get accused of pushing a live as you please or lifestyle of sin.

We get accused of not answering when we answer, we post charts of Greek words and verb tense and get accused of making up the chart ourselves....and the list goes on and on and on.....this is what fires me up...the lack of integrity and honesty...the inability to read something a see what is actually written.....this is why I pour heat sometimes.....it is the one thing I cannot stand the most in this world...to have something attributed to me that I have not said nor implied.....

I have no problem in apologizing openly for firing so heavy upon those who have done this.....cannot we all be honest with what is said without twisting and or embellishing or adding to what is said to imply something not said?

If all you said was true then set the example and initiate the action as I have always said, "it is one thing to say or claim and another thing to do and walk the talk. I'm with you on this.

 

[Budman]

Growing up into godly love and doing right is how we know that we have the faith that justifies and will save us when Jesus comes back.

It's that red bolded part that is so aberrant, Ralph. You seem to think we won't be saved until Jesus returns, looks at our works, and says, "Okay, I pronounce you saved because of the evidence of your good deeds."

 

[ElAmor]

See how you operate....leave off the rest of what John writes.....just proves your dishonesty

If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is not in us.....

SO....do you have the truth or are you claiming to be sinless...which is it...

My doctrine includes all verses...not just cherry picked verses that support my stance....NONE are sinless and GOD deals with SIN by GRACE in those who have trusted him....maybe you should trust him and admit the truth and not be so terrified of losing that which is unlosable....

it's one thing to say and claim and another thing to do and walk the talk. Who is the liar according to that scripture, is it not the one who are just saying and claiming?


Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

 

[Ralph-]

It's that red bolded part that is so aberrant, Ralph. You seem to think we won't be saved until Jesus returns, looks at our works, and says, "Okay, I pronounce you saved because of the evidence of your good deeds."

Only those who are saved ahead of time will go to the right and be saved when Jesus comes back. Everybody who's walked the proverbial aisle in this life to get saved has made peace with the coming king BEFORE he gets here.

“while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace."-Luke 14:32



The saving that happens when Jesus comes back is the separating of the sheep from the goats. They're already going to be sheep or goats at that time. Jesus will just do the separating between them at his return, and he will use their deeds to determine who is a goat and who is a sheep. Their lives will be the evidence that they were saved ahead of time in this life.


"31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels”-Matthew 25:31-34,41

 

[BillG]

Blessing Bill,

I am grieved how quickly you dismiss the work Christ has done in your life,
how weak and tossed around in the sea that you are no example for others
to be inspired by. Why do you disown the work you say God has done in
your heart like it is nothing, you are like any other sinner, not worthy to be
listened to or regarded, a hypocrite who fails at too many levels to be a help.

Everyone has their own walk, but leaders are there to demonstrate leadership,
to show the fruit of the very gospel that is preached and to help others in
their need and weakness.

Are leaders, stealing, commiting adultery, lying, self serving, bearing false testimony,
not honouring their parents, dishonouring the word, commiting blasphemy, greedy, self
indulgent individuals. Now some are and have been caught doing exactly that.

But Paul puts a model for leaders and how they are to behave. Or is this part of the
bible been excluded in your version and it would be evil to suggest these standards and
encouragements are of the Lord?

This is not exactly rocket science of church governance and obvious leadership.
Maybe people are so jaded, only hypocrites run churches now!!!!!!!

Maybe this is the level of church ministry you are into. I do not recognise it
unfortunately, and would never be part of church with such unspecified standards.

What on earth are you on about?

 

[joefizz]

Can you provide a real example from your own life? Just curious. Not a trick question.

Do you honestly want to sit here for hours reading what could be a very long answer?(honestly anything that is so personal as that subject will be a very long answer just giving you a heads up on this before answering because respectfully I wouldn't want to pester you or annoy anyone with such a thing if you really don't like "long stories" so if you still wouldn't mind then I'll answer)

 

[Ralph-]

I highly doubt anything you say....and the word translated is given and the tense....PRESENT and the mood--> subjunctive and the VOICE--> Active and the person--> 1st and it is plural...

I guess you're just not getting what I asked. Can you give me the link to the table you posted that says 'continue' in Romans 6:1 is in the present tense?

[TABLE="class: cms_table_cms_table_maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_cms_table_strongsnt"]1961 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_cms_table_translit"]epimenōmen[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_cms_table_greek2"]ἐπιμένωμεν[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_cms_table_eng"]Shall we continue[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_cms_table_pos"]V-PSA-1P <-----Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present
Mood: Subjunctive
Voice: Active

Person: 1st Person
Number: Plural[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Who compiled this table? Who put these links together? BLB says the verb is in the future tense. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/6/1/t_conc_1052001

I'm curious why these sources differ.

 

[Ralph-]

Do you honestly want to sit here for hours reading what could be a very long answer?(honestly anything that is so personal as that subject will be a very long answer just giving you a heads up on this before answering because respectfully I wouldn't want to pester you or annoy anyone with such a thing if you really don't like "long stories" so if you still wouldn't mind then I'll answer)

Can you give me a Reader's Digest condensed version?

Here's a condensed version from my own life. I was acting badly and I was literally clunked on the head with an attic ladder. I got the message.

You don't need to share what sin was committed and the story around it. Just what it was that God did to discipline you and bring you back in line.

 

[Ralph-]

Do you honestly want to sit here for hours reading what could be a very long answer?(honestly anything that is so personal as that subject will be a very long answer just giving you a heads up on this before answering because respectfully I wouldn't want to pester you or annoy anyone with such a thing if you really don't like "long stories" so if you still wouldn't mind then I'll answer)

Here's a short example.

My pastor shared a story one time about a man who had a secret adult book store habit (this was before computers brought the adult book store into our homes). He was in the parking lot of an adult book store and a sudden gust of wind blew the door open so hard it busted the hinges so the door wouldn't close. He had to call a tow truck to come get him. BUSTED!

 

[Ralph-]

It's that red bolded part that is so aberrant, Ralph. You seem to think we won't be saved until Jesus returns, looks at our works, and says, "Okay, I pronounce you saved because of the evidence of your good deeds."

Just so I can be careful to understand what a person is saying I sometimes Google a word they have used, especially if it is not a normal part of everyday language. I did that with 'aberrant'. (I wondered if you did not mean to use 'abhorrent'.) This is what I got.

ab·er·rant
ˈabərənt,əˈberənt/
adjective

• departing from an accepted standard.
  
  
  It's a good choice of word. I have noticed that Matthew 25:31-46 is very much a departure from the accepted standard of the church's doctrine of the coming of Christ. I think that's because it can only be viewed as teaching a works gospel, so it has been discarded from our understanding of the coming of Christ. But I think it's easy to see this and other teachings of Jesus are not works gospel teachings where you earn your salvation by doing works. Works are the evidence of the presence of saving faith. I think we see this best in Luke 7:47-50. Jesus says the woman is forgiven because of HOW SHE LOVES. He says HER FAITH HAS SAVED HER. The link between the obedience of love (works) and faith is unmistakable. We know where saving faith is by where love for Jesus/people is.

 

[joefizz]

Blessing Bill,

I am grieved how quickly you dismiss the work Christ has done in your life,
how weak and tossed around in the sea that you are no example for others
to be inspired by. Why do you disown the work you say God has done in
your heart like it is nothing, you are like any other sinner, not worthy to be
listened to or regarded, a hypocrite who fails at too many levels to be a help.

Everyone has their own walk, but leaders are there to demonstrate leadership,
to show the fruit of the very gospel that is preached and to help others in
their need and weakness.

Are leaders, stealing, commiting adultery, lying, self serving, bearing false testimony,
not honouring their parents, dishonouring the word, commiting blasphemy, greedy, self
indulgent individuals. Now some are and have been caught doing exactly that.

But Paul puts a model for leaders and how they are to behave. Or is this part of the
bible been excluded in your version and it would be evil to suggest these standards and
encouragements are of the Lord?

This is not exactly rocket science of church governance and obvious leadership.
Maybe people are so jaded, only hypocrites run churches now!!!!!!!

Maybe this is the level of church ministry you are into. I do not recognise it
unfortunately, and would never be part of church with such unspecified standards.

And here I thought I had witnessed every ridiculous view point,obviously not,you just topped every false doctrine poster and troll here with your post,with lines like "only hypocrites run churches now" and politely calling Bill g a "hypocrite" whom only stated his view point,politely to you,and the kicker telling him "you are no example to others to be inspired" now forget "lasagna" and "bologna" you are spewing polite "Garbage" I myself find Bill g an inspiration because he is not only polite but "patient" and "is not easily upset" those are qualities many people would like for themselves.
Now whoopee yeah noone here is necessarily going to "entirely agree" but "belittling someone" is not "A Christian" let alone God "approved" action,and you are certainly not God so you don't get to tell "anyone" what their "worth is" if you have a problem with "this fact" then take it up with the lord in prayer,
never even politely "devalue" someone it's a horrible thing to do.

 

[Ralph-]

And here I thought I had witnessed every ridiculous view point,obviously not,you just topped every false doctrine poster and troll here with your post,with lines like "only hypocrites run churches now" and politely calling Bill g a "hypocrite" whom only stated his view point,politely to you,and the kicker telling him "you are no example to others to be inspired" now forget "lasagna" and "bologna" you are spewing polite "Garbage" I myself find Bill g an inspiration because he is not only polite but "patient" and "is not easily upset" those are qualities many people would like for themselves.
Now whoopee yeah noone here is necessarily going to "entirely agree" but "belittling someone" is not "A Christian" let alone God "approved" action,and you are certainly not God so you don't get to tell "anyone" what their "worth is" if you have a problem with "this fact" then take it up with the lord in prayer,
never even politely "devalue" someone it's a horrible thing to do.

I think he was telling him to not tear himself down the way he was and to recognize what God has done in his life instead of lamenting his failures.

 

[joefizz]

Here's a short example.

My pastor shared a story one time about a man who had a secret adult book store habit (this was before computers brought the adult book store into our homes). He was in the parking lot of an adult book store and a sudden gust of wind blew the door open so hard it busted the hinges so the door wouldn't close. He had to call a tow truck to come get him. BUSTED!

not a bad example,for God says"nothing is hidden from him and our secrets we hide he shall shout them from the roof tops" and yes it can be a "learning experience" or even a "chastening by God" for often we cannot "guess nor fathom" what a day may bring,but particularly said secrets God tells that he will "shout to the roof tops" when one does wrong by him,typically something "spiritually bad" like in your example "adult books" that might bring God to chasten for reminding of "what is most important" but particularly in my life it was the things "uncalled for" that I did that have resulted in chastening from God like saying something "completely insensitive" and then later on realizing what I did was horrible and having to remember the action that to me is one of the toughest chastenings from God,the holy spirit's "bringing remembrance of wrong doings".
Now true satan tries his hand too with "nightmares" and sometimes trying to "put stuff in my head" like "you aren't a child of God just look at your past" but the difference is the holy spirit reminds so as to correct,satan tries to remind to "inflict pain and doubt".
We all have things we wish we had never done but what matters is after we are saved,and gain "security" in that we can "move forward" and "begin Anew" and if our past does "face us" through God's word and the holy spirit we can "be ready" for confronting it,instead of "striving to keep it hidden" and "being caught unawares and despite a possible explanation" "completely ashamed of ourselves and our voice not being able to carry".

 

[joefizz]

Can you give me a Reader's Digest condensed version?

Here's a condensed version from my own life. I was acting badly and I was literally clunked on the head with an attic ladder. I got the message.

You don't need to share what sin was committed and the story around it. Just what it was that God did to discipline you and bring you back in line.

Well I guess I kind of did in one post just recently in response to one of your posts if you feel it's satisfactory,if not I may try again later,I'm rather tired right now,just got home a little while ago from work and if I try posting now I might not make sense or ramble,or fall asleep while typing,talk to you later.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Good night Joe!