mark of the beast

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

Good evening Lucy,

Actually, it is mentioned in scripture. You have to put yourself in John's time period. He is seeing the future where people are receiving a mark in/on the hand or the forehead. John has zero technology to compare and explain what he is seeing the vision that he is being shown. Therefore, John can't describe what he is seeing using our terms of understanding. For example, john can't say:

"He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a chip implant in/on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not perform electronic crediting and debiting on their bank accounts unless they had the electronic chip device implanted, which contains the computer code of the first beasts name within the chip device."

John can't say that! The closest that he can come to is the Greek word "charagma" which is defined as "an etching, branding, engraving, impress like a coin or a seal, etc." The use of this word is as close as he can come to describing something 2000 years in the future.

Forgive me if I have seemed to be on a wild tangent, but I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. I always provide scripture to back up my claims. I am not speaking off the cuff, but am providing information from years of study.

Preterism, along with Amillennialism are two of the most destructive false teachings in the world today.

I'm all for discussing end-time events and any Biblical topic, but there is only one correct view of the order of chronological end-time events. I have been telling MatthewG that there is no way that Jesus could have already returned. For one, he said: "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Yet, the church is still in the process of being built. It will not be completed until the Lord comes to gather it. If Jesus had already come, the church would no longer be here. But even worse than that, he is claiming that Christ has already returned to the earth to end the age.

I'm not missing any of it, because I've gone over all of the other teachings comparing them to scripture, over and over and over and over, etc. I've done the studies and know the answers as to why those views cannot be possible. I can't pretend to not know the word of God regarding these issues.

tanakh · Jan 31, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Its refreshing to read something from a person like yourself who talks sense. I believe the Bible contains all the answers to our questions because the whole of it is Gods revelation to us not just the last book. One reason its difficult for us to fathom is that we have a modern western mind set and the Hebrew way of thinking about these things is very different to ours. Another is to consider that our particular view of scripture is the only right one and that its not possible to change and develop our views over a period of time by studying scripture and learning from others.

followjesus · Jan 31, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

end time prophecy began with isaiah. to understand revelation, we have to do it the Bibles way. for instance the four horsemen . we can guess and try to figure out what the symbolism means ? who are they? are they men? this is what people refuse to do

zechariah 6 "And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. 2In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; 3And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. 4Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? 5And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. .....v 7... and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth. "

revelation 6 " And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

ezekeil 14 " For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? "

ezekeil 5 " A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them."

these are the judgements in the law that God repeatedly warned Israel. Jesus takes the book of the law from Gods hands and the first 4 seals release the judgements of the law which God said maybe 20 times over the famine, the sword, the pestelence death, scattering them into all nations on earth. and following them is the judgements of the Law into all the earth.

they are 4 spirits sent from Heaven into the earth and are given power to execute Gods judgements of the mosaic Law. and then you have this

revelation 7 " And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

ezekeil 9 " 2And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house.

And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head."

the book of revelation cant be understood by itself, all of the symbolism John sees and writes, is explained in prior prophecies. the ned has been near since pauls day, they expected it then. the idea is to live as if tomorrow could be the day, because He says it will happen when no one is expecting it, like a theif who breaks in at night when no one is ready for him. Jesus odnt even Know the day or time of His return. its not something we can calculate or figure out. revelation is not what it seems. its the covenant between God and man that is to be hereafter, spiritual things. those 4 judgements have been spoken of since the law was written they are written in the law itself. 7 punishements for the sins of Israel. the first four are pestelence, the sword, famine and the scattering of the remaining people into the earth. which happened beginnong at 600 bc, the sword is sent our after them and thet then carries the judgements to the earth. it has been happening for centuries. Israel was dispursed from its hmeland in 70 ad, and as of 2012 there were jews in every nation on earth still. the prophets were always saying the things in revelation, they give understanding to the book

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

tanakh said:

And what you have never understood tanakh, is that I've considered all of the those views that you speak of and by cross-referencing and comparing scripture, know why they cannot be the truth. When the Holy Spirit is teaching you as you study the word of God, He is not going to take you through multiple views, so that you change your position over and over again. I heard people say "I used to think like you do, but I changed my position on this." Multiple views is not a sign of the teaching of the Spirit.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

No you haven't because you have have ignored me several times when I mention one very valid point based entirely on scripture. I would trust you more if you were to say something like " I don't have ALL the answers." God has shown me some things. What has he shown you? Lets's talk about it." Instead you just keep claiming you have the entire end time period figured out all on your own. You are refusing to examine anything any further.
Good you have studied for 40 years. I am sure you can teach me some things. But others have studied too. Are you wiser than Solomon? Even he fell into idolatry in his later life. (I'm not accusing you of idolatry btw) but I think we should be working as a body. I & others may have seen some things you've missed.

louis · Jan 31, 2018

Muzungu256 said:

Right now you can make purchases and sales with a smart phone in your hand.
And with headphone, you can probably do it that way too.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 31, 2018

followjesus said:

Indeed, thank you. I'll study into that some more with the verses you have posted. I see the theme running all the way through.

I would add and ask people to consider that the outlook of Bible prophecy is from The Middle East.

I don't mean merely that the focus is ON that region but the OUTLOOK is FROM the Middle East, not Europe or America.
Imagine yourself sitting in a chair in the centre of Jerusalem facing north. That is your point of view. What is happening around you? That is how the world looks FROM the eyes of the Prophets. If you read the books of prophecy including Revelation from that point of view it opens up some understanding that may not be there otherwise.

It helps if you study the history of the Middle East and unfortunately books written after 1950 by Americans aren't always the best sources of information. If you overlook what life for Christians and Jews is like there you are missing some important fulfilments of prophecy. Not all prophecy is fulfilled only once in our distant future. Some things repeat like a pattern and are fulfilled over several time periods.

garee · Jan 31, 2018

Like the movie; Back to the Future?

We are not to compare technology to technology and in the end making technology the new god, Hollywood style. We walk by faith the unseen hidden in parables as the hidden manna and not after what the eyes see as if salvation came by observation.

The signs in Mathew 24 are signs of observation not signs and or with wonders, with wonder being the faith principle men seek after .

There are no signs to seek after as wonder .Christ said it’s an evil generation ...the generation of natural man (666) that does require a sign before they will exercise faith .

We are to compare the spiritual truth to the spiritual truth. Again we do not compare technology to technology. What one buys today will be obsolete tomorrow. As technology increases so does sin in the world .Technology is the new god of the millennium

It’s the buying and not selling of that truth. It has nothing to do with the goods of this world food needed for these bodies of death . But does with the mark of Cain a restless wander, assigned the number 666 the number of natural unconverted man .The number God assigned to him make sure others did not kill him. Its not a literal mark we walk by faith not after what the eyes see ..Like the kind of mark the Catholic put on their forehead as a sign of those who are fasting .

Cain’s punishment was not more that he could bear but was that which he did bear .God marked it to make it so (666) un converted man.

And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.Gen 4:15

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Esau is another who had the mark as a restless wanderer (666) .He sold the spiritual truth for a bowl of soup without a electronic chip.

And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? Gen 25:31

Something in the future like the god of technology?[/QUOTE]

Right hand or on their forehead signifies the will of a person. Its the right hand of God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure .It has nothing to do with the flesh that Hollywood uses to bring drama and special affects.

Hollywood is not concerned with the buying and selling of spiritual matters .

Nessuno · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Actually, the fact that this technology exists is only YOUR opinion that it relates to God's word- nothing more.

Being marked in scripture, as it relates to this topic, rarely-if ever had anything to do with a physical mark. In example: The mark of Cain, the men in Ezekiel, those in Revelation sealed with a mark on their foreheads, etc.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

Nessuno said:

So, let's do a comparison:

Scripture = Mark will go hand or the forehead

Currently = People being implanted under the skin of the hand

Scripture = Unless anyone has the mark they will not be able to buy or sell

Currently = People using implant to make purchases

I'd say we have a match! Therefore, it can't be my opinion if we can see the fulfillment of God's word. This technology for the mark will continue to evolve, but what will remain the same is where that mark/device goes which will be in/on the hand or the forehead and will come about after the antichrist/beast is revealed.

If you don't believe me just keep watching and you will begin to see more and more people here in the US and around the world, beginning to make purchases by having their hands scanned, instead of swiping their cards or using cell phone apps.

Regarding Cain, you are just repeating an established apologetic to refute what I am saying. Since the mark will be used to buy and sell, then it cannot be a spiritual mark. Nor was there technology back in Cain's time. As I said, those sealed are the 144,000 out of Israel, which is not a mark, but a seal on the forehead, which is not used for buying and selling, but a mark of ownership to God which those demonic beings can see. The fact is that, it doesn't say whether the seal is visible or invisible, but one is a seal and the other a mark. Two different words are being used which need to be taken into consideration.

Nessuno · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Not only an opinion, one that is such a stretch that it surprises me that someone would present it as such.

Ahwatukee said:

And people not using implants are also making purchases. Another example of an over-inflated opinion.

You can believe what you want.

Bible vs. Ahwatukee Opinion:

Rev. 13:17 people can buy if they have: "the mark, the name of the wild beast, or the number of it's name." (Not an RFID chip!)

LightLoveHope · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

If the chip goes in your shoulder would that then make it ok?
Is it the location that describes this as evil?

What about it being implanted between the thumb and forefinger,
so it is not visible?

Does visibility mean it is the mark, while an electronic tag means it
is not a mark?

And let us say I have an electronic instrument implanted in my hand to operate
a device, like a drug pump that keeps me alive, does this mean I am not part of
the mark, but if it is used to identify me as me, I am?

Surely part of the idea of the mark is to identify loyalty to the evil rebellion against
God, which is why it is so damnable, not about identifying the individual as an individual
which is just another way of saying, yes this is me.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

Well, the shoulder is not mentioned as being where the mark will go, but the hand or forehead.

Currently, the chip device is being implanted under the skin of the hand and is not visible, but is only detected when being scanned in order to credit or debit ones bank account. It will work in the same way as swiping your debit card does, except the device used to access your account will be under your skin.

Scripture states that without the mark no one will be able to "buy or sell" therefore if you have something that is implanted to keep you heart pumping, then you are not using it to buy or sell.

This device under the hand or forehead will become the way in which people will be performing their financial transactions of crediting and debiting their bank accounts. This process is currently being done via card swiping and the use of cell phone bank apps, etc. Now we have this chip implant that is performing the same function by allowing people to make purchases by having their hand scanned, which like the debit card, will access the individuals bank account debiting it in real time.

This electronic crediting and debiting system is the system that the mark is going to utilize and during the time of the beast will become the only valid method of electronic buying and selling.

you absolutely correct! Just as the debit and credit cards have different identifying codes within the electronic strip, I believe that the number of his name will be included in that code within that device/mark. Those who receive it will be aligning themselves with the beast have his name contained within that mark. The word "charagma" is the Greek word translated as "mark" and it has the following definition:

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

I believe that during the middle of that last seven years when the beast has the abomination set up and stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God, that all other methods of buying and selling will be deemed obsolete, leaving that mark as the only valid method of making a purchase or receiving a deposit (crediting and debiting). This will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand forcing people to make a decision to receive it or reject it. And since receiving it will be the only way to buy anything, then many who love their lives more than God will receive it. Those during that time known as the great tribulation saints, who will know what the mark is, will reject it and keep their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and as the scripture says, "they will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death."

LightLoveHope · Jan 31, 2018

Hi Ahwatukee,

I do not have a problem with the idea the beast will use lots of methods to declare loyalty to him.
The problem I have is in declaring having a device in your hand automatically condemns one to
eternity in the lake of fire.

Now there is much talk about the sin against the Holy Spirit, and who has fallen into this or not.
Now if getting a chip in the hand is this, it is a very big statement.

John when writing the prophecy had no idea of such things.

Now a for instance is going to concerts, often a stamp is put on the hand to confirm you have
paid. Sometimes it is a bracelet. This is a mark to the authorities. Because it is washed off,
does this then make it ok.

So I would need more persuading to put my eternal future in jeopardy by getting involved in such
things.

I hope you see this speculation actually has a massive implication if true.
It is linking a technology to a declaration of allegiance, which is where I have a problem.

What if people have such technology implanted in them against their will. Does this still
apply with its consequences?

If the technology is present, and used widely, then is taken over by a new regime, does
this switch doom those who are now using it.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

Regarding your claim above, I would have to refer you to the following scripture:

"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

A stamp to get in and out of a concert or club is not being used to buy and sell nor would it be identifying you with the beast. This mark that is coming will be replacing card swiping and every other method of buying and selling. Being that all other methods of buying and selling will be made obsolete, then the mark will be the only way of performing financial transactions to ones bank account. And you can see from the scripture above the consequences of those who receive the mark, aligning themselves with the beast.

Let me answer that with this, is anyone currently being forced against their will to get a debit or credit card? The mark will be the same. The only difference is that it will be the only method of electronic crediting and debiting and therefore, if one does not receive it, then one will not be able to perform financial transactions. The only people who will refuse it will be Israel and the great tribulation saints and many of them will die because of this, because by refusing the mark they will be an enemy of the beast and his kingdom. For this is what scripture says regarding them:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life (resurrection) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Ellsworth1943 · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

So, let's do a comparison:

Scripture = Mark will go hand or the forehead

Currently = People being implanted under the skin of the hand

Scripture = Unless anyone has the mark they will not be able to buy or sell

Currently = People using implant to make purchases

I'd say we have a match! Therefore, it can't be my opinion if we can see the fulfillment of God's word. This technology for the mark will continue to evolve, but what will remain the same is where that mark/device goes which will be in/on the hand or the forehead and will come about after the antichrist/beast is revealed.

If you don't believe me just keep watching and you will begin to see more and more people here in the US and around the world, beginning to make purchases by having their hands scanned, instead of swiping their cards or using cell phone apps.

Regarding Cain, you are just repeating an established apologetic to refute what I am saying. Since the mark will be used to buy and sell, then it cannot be a spiritual mark. Nor was there technology back in Cain's time. As I said, those sealed are the 144,000 out of Israel, which is not a mark, but a seal on the forehead, which is not used for buying and selling, but a mark of ownership to God which those demonic beings can see. The fact is that, it doesn't say whether the seal is visible or invisible, but one is a seal and the other a mark. Two different words are being used which need to be taken into consideration.

You are delusional. 40 years of study and you make such foolish statements.
Do you have a learning disorder?
I may need to re-think the thinks we agree on.

Ahwatukee · Jan 31, 2018

Nessuno said:

What do you think the implant is going to become? The chip implant or whatever it evolves into is going to become the mark.

I truly hope that you don't depend on your reasoning and receive the very thing that scripture warns us about. A good rule of thumb would be to not receive anything on or in your hand or forehead that has to do with buying or selling. This is exactly what the chip implant is being used for. Do the math! Can't you apply what John was seeing in a vision 2000 years ago to the technology of today? After all, the chip implant is matching what the scripture says regarding buying and selling and going into the hand.

I'm just providing the information of many years of study and watching the technology of the electronic credit and debiting system and the related devices used to perform the crediting and debiting transaction. The chip implant technology which will replace card swiping and cell phone bank apps, it is being used to make purchases and it is under the skin of the hand. What do you want as proof that this is going to become the mark of the beast, dancing girls and neon signs?

claysmithr · Jan 31, 2018

The problem with the chip is that you could theoretically cut it out. I think it's more likely to be an electronic tattoo or something that permanently alters your DNA.

LightLoveHope · Jan 31, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Regarding your claim above, I would have to refer you to the following scripture:

"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

A stamp to get in and out of a concert or club is not being used to buy and sell nor would it be identifying you with the beast. This mark that is coming will be replacing card swiping and every other method of buying and selling. Being that all other methods of buying and selling will be made obsolete, then the mark will be the only way of performing financial transactions to ones bank account. And you can see from the scripture above the consequences of those who receive the mark, aligning themselves with the beast.

Let me answer that with this, is anyone currently being forced against their will to get a debit or credit card? The mark will be the same. The only difference is that it will be the only method of electronic crediting and debiting and therefore, if one does not receive it, then one will not be able to perform financial transactions. The only people who will refuse it will be Israel and the great tribulation saints and many of them will die because of this, because by refusing the mark they will be an enemy of the beast and his kingdom. For this is what scripture says regarding them:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life (resurrection) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Thanks for you reply.

So if the tag is just to identify who I am, and not buy or sell it is ok.
It is the purchasing of things that is the problem not identification of the individual.

But I would suggest this is only about allegiance with the beast, and is just a symbolic
way of representing this.

Would one rather die than pledge allegiance to such a thing? Yes.

Joseppi · Jan 31, 2018

One day I asked the Lord to confirm my understanding about the mark of the beast. I had read the passage above with the understanding that prophecy is given to the saints so that they may overcome the mark of the beast.

My understanding is that we are soldiers of the Lord and Jesus has told us, Fear not, for I have overcome the world.

Knowing that the time of the end has come, I look to prophecy expecting it to be practical and useful at the time of the end. And, I knew that Satan is having developed and installed a global merchantile system. For remember from Ezekiel 28 that Satan is a merchant.

I saw in the quote above that there are three ways to use the coming beast merchantile system, and that two of the means will be available to the saints.
Namely: knowing the name of the beast, and/or the number of his name.

I fell asleep that day and suddenly, with alarm I awoke with the back of my right hand laid on my forhead, and I heard a loud voice say, Skin, for skin; everything will a man give for his skin.

I knew it was a quote of Satan when he answered the Lord about Job having remained faithful when tested.
It is a compelling bit of information about Satan's thinking concerning the saints of God.
And reveals that Satan's ultimate test of whether there indeed be any saints is to test them and see if a man doesn't love the world, or anything in it.

Thus, the satanic merchantile system of the beast is coming.

I saw how the back of my right hand touched my forehead as I awoke, and how that corresponded to the mark of the beast being either in the forehead, or in the right hand.

I saw that in such a perilous time as is coming, that a man without the mark of the beast could literally take the skin of another man having the mark and substitute it for his own in a merchantile transaction at a system interchange portal.

The opprotunity to do so would be unlikely, as well as impractical, to say the least.

But, I was in this manner confirmed in my understanding that the two ways of entering in to the beast merchantile system will indeed be available to the saints who are wise at that time.

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