You are attempting to divert. What does the baptism of Jesus have to do with this issue?
“Born of water...” -- exactly what does it mean?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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agreed.....I really wish those "no baptism" folks would quit using this out of context scripture. If you read the whole passage, it is crystal clear to the simplest of readers that Paul is talking about the issue of believers bragging about "who" baptized them. "I'm better than you because PAUL baptized me", or "I was baptized by PHILIP, so I'm somehow a better believer than you"....
These petty arguments were causing problems in the early church, and Paul was telling them that WHO baptizes you does not matter in the least.... and saying, "man, I'm glad I didn't perform the baptism on but just a few of you, because Jesus didn't send me to see how large a number of people I personally can baptize.... MY job is to teach the gospel, and the other guys can do the actual baptism".....
If Paul saw no need for baptism, please explain to me why the FIRST thing he did, upon regaining his sight (after being blinded, and having nothing to eat for 3 DAYS) was to get up and be baptized. Before eating. Before anything else.... he was baptized.... Sounds pretty unimportant to Paul, doesn't it?
And I am not a Campbellite. We do not need to search far to know what water Jesus is speaking of, unless that water does not fit your theology. You see a metaphoric use of water because you have to, not because of any verbiage. Yes, John 4 and 7 use metaphoric language for water, this is clear by the verbiage used. But these two verses are not tied by verbiage, time or place to John 3.
The natural man can only understand his own sensibilities.
In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect harmony*
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? *The Holy Spirit is the source of living water.
If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Once again, the natural man just cannot understand.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
agreed.....I really wish those "no baptism" folks would quit using this out of context scripture. If you read the whole passage, it is crystal clear to the simplest of readers that Paul is talking about the issue of believers bragging about "who" baptized them. "I'm better than you because PAUL baptized me", or "I was baptized by PHILIP, so I'm somehow a better believer than you"....
These petty arguments were causing problems in the early church, and Paul was telling them that WHO baptizes you does not matter in the least.... and saying, "man, I'm glad I didn't perform the baptism on but just a few of you, because Jesus didn't send me to see how large a number of people I personally can baptize.... MY job is to teach the gospel, and the other guys can do the actual baptism".....
If Paul saw no need for baptism, please explain to me why the FIRST thing he did, upon regaining his sight (after being blinded, and having nothing to eat for 3 DAYS) was to get up and be baptized. Before eating. Before anything else.... he was baptized.... Sounds pretty unimportant to Paul, doesn't it?
who is a no baptism folk? I have yet to see anyone who said it is ok to disobey Gods command to be baptized. who are they?
Living waters is a metaphoric use of water.
Both of your verses are metaphoric. "Did you see that"?
Jesus uses the word "water" not the term "living waters" in John 3:5.
Water is not defined as anything but water unless verbiage is used to change its meaning, hence "living waters". Jesus did not tell Nicodemus, "unless one is born of living water and spirit".
You are shoehorning the word "living" in John 3:5 much like you shoehorn "alone" in John 3:16 and others.
Isn't it easier to just accept John 3:5. John 4:10 and John 7:37 as written? If you don't want the water in John 3:5 to mean H20 fine. But don't put words in verses that are not there. I accept the word baptism is not in John 3:5 ut I am not altering its meaning by adding "living" as you have done.
Once again, the natural man cannot see pass his own sensibilities.
#173 Not only is place different, so is the time and the participants and the conversation.
John 4 is clearly speaking of " living water" which is identified as the Spirit in John 7.
John 3 is speaking of water and the Spirit; if John 3: 5 is living water then you have Jesus saying "you must be born of Spirit and the Spirit." Kind of redundant and deserving of a double wow.
I have always heard that the first rule if Bible interpretation is to take the passage literally unless the context indicates otherwise.
God bless
John 4 is clearly speaking of " living water" which is identified as the Spirit in John 7.
John 3 is speaking of water and the Spirit; if John 3: 5 is living water then you have Jesus saying "you must be born of Spirit and the Spirit." Kind of redundant and deserving of a double wow.
I have always heard that the first rule if Bible interpretation is to take the passage literally unless the context indicates otherwise.
God bless
For the followers of faith alone regeneration theology the first rule of interpretation is if the verse does not fit your sensibilities , twist it until you find a way to make it "harmonize" your theology.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
John 3 is not about water baptism, No place in the passage did Jesus even mention baptism, If baptism was so important, Jesus would not let Nicodemus wondering, he would have flat out told him.
He would have said somethigh like this at the very LEAST,
”That God so loved the world. He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him, and gets baptised what’s eternal life. For God did send his son to condemn the world. But that through his son and water baptism, the world may be saved, He who believes and is baptised is not condemned, He who does not believe, or he who believes, but is not baptised. Is condemned already,. Because they have refused to believe, or believe, yet refuse to get baptised in my name.”
Funny how you demand we take it literal. But you refuse to take what jesus said literal.
I do take water literal.
That which is born of flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born off spirit (spirit) is spirit.
Either way, Whether you believe water is literal as in the flesh, or that it is spiritual as in living water, either one is much better interpretation that you trying to say water means baptism. Which is not only not supported in the text. If it was true, was sadly left out when Jesus finally told him what it meant to be born again (for God so loved the world. Whoever BELIEVES)
It is all there, You just have to open your eyes to see it.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Who is the one trying to make it harmonize. You are my friend, You are. Your trying to pul baptism out of thin air to make it fit your works based regeneration theology stand, plain and simple.
I find the following three rules helps in my study of scriptures;
Take The Bible literally...when ever possible. If typical, figurative, or symbolic language is used then we must look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.
Look for scripture which interprets scripture.
Do not spiritualize The Bible. (PC is not allowed in G-d's word...it says what it says).
Take The Bible literally...when ever possible. If typical, figurative, or symbolic language is used then we must look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.
Look for scripture which interprets scripture.
Do not spiritualize The Bible. (PC is not allowed in G-d's word...it says what it says).
Living water is a reference to spiritual washing or purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation, which is required to become born again which means "born from above" and enter the kingdom of God.
Water is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word (not through plain ordinary H20) which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).
In Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word (not by plain ordinary H20).
Also in 1 Peter 1:22, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God (not through plain ordinary H20) which lives and abides forever
What I see is you ignoring the obvious for the sake of accommodating your biased church doctrine. In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
*So Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect harmony*
Jesus uses the word "water" in John 4:10,14 and qualifies what He means by it -- "living water." Jesus uses the word "water" not the term "baptism" in John 3:5 and since Jesus connects "living water" with receiving everlasting life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39, it makes much more sense that water in John 3:5 is living water, rather than plain ordinary H20, which does not flow through our heart and has no power to cleanse the heart.
Jesus clearly qualifies what He meant by "water" in John 4:10,14 as "living water" and connects it with receiving everlasting life, so why would it be any different in John 3:5 in which water is connected to becoming born again and entering the kingdom of God? Jesus did not tell Nicodemus, "unless one is born of baptism and the Spirit."
*Once again, if "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
Actually, you are "shoe-horning" the word "baptism" in John 3:5 much like you "shoe horn" the word "baptism" in John 3:16. The Bible clearly states in John 3:16 and many other passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus baptism, plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
It's you who is putting words in verses (using your shoe horn) that are not there. I am simply harmonizing scripture with scripture (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39).
Oh the IRONY. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
For the followers of baptismal regeneration theology the first rule of interpretation is to not only "shoe horn" baptism "into" believes in Him/salvation through faith, but also go about distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
Your 5 step plan of salvation comes straight out of Campbellism. Your theology has originated with men, namely THOMAS CAMPBELL, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, WALTER SCOTT, and BARTON W. STONE. Did these men actually "restore" the gospel, the church, and true New Testament worship, as they claim, or did they simply create another sect bent on a more dogmatic sectarianism than others they renounced?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Eph 5: 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing BY THE WORD..It is not the waters in some sanctuary bathtub or river or pool which cleanses us, IT IS THE WORD.
As peter said in john 6, Where are we going to go YOU HAVE THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE!
Are we saved by faith? Certainly. (Eph. 2: 8) More accurately-for by grace you are saved through faith.
Are we saved by faith alone?
No scriptural references are given because there are none. There are many references to salvation by faith, but none to salvation by faith alone. Faith is our introduction to the grace of God (Rom. 5: 2) but it is not the end-all, that distinction belongs to love. (1 Cor. 13: 2, 13)
Are we saved by love? Yes, those that love the brethren have passed from death to life (1 John 3: 14), as have those who hear and believe. (John 5: 24)
What has God promised to those that love Him? (James 2: 12) A crown of life!
Are we saved by hope? (Rom. 8: 24) Yes, we are not saved by faith alone!
Are we saved by calling on the name of the Lord? (Acts 2: 21; 10: 14) Yes!!
Are we saved by confessing His name before men? (Matt. 10: 32, 33; Acts 10: Rom. 10: 10) Yes !!!
Are we saved by repentance? (Luke 13: 3; 2 Cor. 7: 10; Acts 11: 18) Yes!!!
Are we saved by obedience to Christ? (Heb. 5: 9; Rom. 2: 8) Yes!!
Are we saved by persevering in doing good? (Rom. 2: 7) Yes!
Are we justified by faith? (Rom 5: 1) Yes! Are we justified by faith alone? (James 2: 24) No, no!
Is faith essential to our salvation? (Heb. 11: 6) Certainly!! Faith working with love and hope, through works of faith is God’s way to perfect our faith (James 2: 22), but faith alone is dead and useless. (James 2; 17,20)
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall not see death. (John 8: 51)
Thank God, He has given us the word, we do not have to rely on the word of man.
God bless.
Are we saved by faith alone?
No scriptural references are given because there are none. There are many references to salvation by faith, but none to salvation by faith alone. Faith is our introduction to the grace of God (Rom. 5: 2) but it is not the end-all, that distinction belongs to love. (1 Cor. 13: 2, 13)
Are we saved by love? Yes, those that love the brethren have passed from death to life (1 John 3: 14), as have those who hear and believe. (John 5: 24)
What has God promised to those that love Him? (James 2: 12) A crown of life!
Are we saved by hope? (Rom. 8: 24) Yes, we are not saved by faith alone!
Are we saved by calling on the name of the Lord? (Acts 2: 21; 10: 14) Yes!!
Are we saved by confessing His name before men? (Matt. 10: 32, 33; Acts 10: Rom. 10: 10) Yes !!!
Are we saved by repentance? (Luke 13: 3; 2 Cor. 7: 10; Acts 11: 18) Yes!!!
Are we saved by obedience to Christ? (Heb. 5: 9; Rom. 2: 8) Yes!!
Are we saved by persevering in doing good? (Rom. 2: 7) Yes!
Are we justified by faith? (Rom 5: 1) Yes! Are we justified by faith alone? (James 2: 24) No, no!
Is faith essential to our salvation? (Heb. 11: 6) Certainly!! Faith working with love and hope, through works of faith is God’s way to perfect our faith (James 2: 22), but faith alone is dead and useless. (James 2; 17,20)
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall not see death. (John 8: 51)
Thank God, He has given us the word, we do not have to rely on the word of man.
God bless.