Matthew Chapter 24 ; Thoughts?
- Thread starter MatthewG
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hokay, what if we say that Matthew 24 et all were fulfilled in 70 AD, and will be again in the future?
The Messiah was offered to the Jews and they rejected Him. And they received their judgment for that in 70 AD.
The Christ was then offered to the world, and the world is rejecting Him. And so the world will receive it's judgment in the future.
The word of God is eternal. One manifestation does not render it moot.
As for the lake of fire, God’s word tells us the world is made of things unseen, which describes the atom and it’s subatomic components. The interesting thing about the atom is that it’s nucleus is composed of like-charged particles,and orbiting that are another set of like-charged particles. The laws of physics dictate that like charged particles repel each other, indicating the whole dang thing should just naturally come apart.
But God says that all things are held together by Him ( Hebrews 11:3; Col. 1:16).
The Lord spoke this creation into existence, putting it together by His very Word (note the similarity of word/world). We are told that at the end of its existence the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Consider what happens when an atom is split - it creates intense heat and fire as the element explodes out of existence.
The lake of fire only appears right after this creation is decreated. Could it be possible that when God speaks it out of existence, the resulting nuclear meltdown of all the created matter that now exists as our earth and heavens will create the lake of fire? Would it seem fitting that those who love this world more than Him, would be given it in its natural state apart from Him?
I believe that in the end, God allows those who love this world to keep it in it's natural state, while He creates a new heaven and earth for those who love Him more.
The Messiah was offered to the Jews and they rejected Him. And they received their judgment for that in 70 AD.
The Christ was then offered to the world, and the world is rejecting Him. And so the world will receive it's judgment in the future.
The word of God is eternal. One manifestation does not render it moot.
As for the lake of fire, God’s word tells us the world is made of things unseen, which describes the atom and it’s subatomic components. The interesting thing about the atom is that it’s nucleus is composed of like-charged particles,and orbiting that are another set of like-charged particles. The laws of physics dictate that like charged particles repel each other, indicating the whole dang thing should just naturally come apart.
But God says that all things are held together by Him ( Hebrews 11:3; Col. 1:16).
The Lord spoke this creation into existence, putting it together by His very Word (note the similarity of word/world). We are told that at the end of its existence the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Consider what happens when an atom is split - it creates intense heat and fire as the element explodes out of existence.
The lake of fire only appears right after this creation is decreated. Could it be possible that when God speaks it out of existence, the resulting nuclear meltdown of all the created matter that now exists as our earth and heavens will create the lake of fire? Would it seem fitting that those who love this world more than Him, would be given it in its natural state apart from Him?
I believe that in the end, God allows those who love this world to keep it in it's natural state, while He creates a new heaven and earth for those who love Him more.
Last edited:
Mathew 24 to begin with is not showing us a sign and a wonder or a sign with wonder .Signs of observation are not necessarily wonders a source of faith hid from the eye. The wonder being the source of faith that men would seek after.
They asked for the sign not signs plural .He did not give them a sign as a wonder for us to seek after. He is coming like a thief in the night without observation,
God used the Israel nation in parables for signs and wonders representing our Lord who dwells in Mount Zion the heavenly city of Christ prepared as His bride .
Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
The time of reformation has come . the nation of Israel is no longer is being used in parables as signs and or with wonders the shadow is gone the veil is rent. The government of Christ is restored to another time period
Therefore it is an evil generation, the generation of natural man that do seek after signs as wonders.
Note.... (purple in parenthesis) my person comments
The Holy Ghost this signifying,(using the the temporal things seen to give us the eternal not seen understanding). that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable)for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them "until the time of reformation."Heb 9:8
Christ had already informed them its an evil generation that seeks after a sign . So he is not changing his mind in Mathew 24.
Luk 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
They asked for that kind of a sign (a sign and wonder) and he give them sign of observation as in things will continue like normal, earth quakes but the end is not yet, wars but the end is not yet., famine but the end is not yet, people giving into marriage but the end is not yet and then after the end will come. No prior direct sign Then he will come as a thief in the night on the "last day"
.
Just as it was in the time of Noah when the hearts of men were evil all the time and most were not walking by the faith that came from hearing God .
No outwards signs to seek after as a wonder today .
The promise is that our invisible God would come as a outward demonstration in the flesh as the Son of man......... once.
Hoping he would appear in the same flesh that he said does not profit the first time ... to come again as if the veil was not rent, according to my understanding is no different than saying he did not come the first time. His kingdom does not come by observation we walk by the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God.
God is not a man as us he remains without mother and father, without beginning of Spirit life or end of Spirit life .
2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
If we are not careful we will simply repeat the work of the Antichrist in the garden of Eden alluring men to walk by sight and not by the faith of God who has no form.
They asked for the sign not signs plural .He did not give them a sign as a wonder for us to seek after. He is coming like a thief in the night without observation,
God used the Israel nation in parables for signs and wonders representing our Lord who dwells in Mount Zion the heavenly city of Christ prepared as His bride .
Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
The time of reformation has come . the nation of Israel is no longer is being used in parables as signs and or with wonders the shadow is gone the veil is rent. The government of Christ is restored to another time period
Therefore it is an evil generation, the generation of natural man that do seek after signs as wonders.
Note.... (purple in parenthesis) my person comments
The Holy Ghost this signifying,(using the the temporal things seen to give us the eternal not seen understanding). that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable)for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them "until the time of reformation."Heb 9:8
Christ had already informed them its an evil generation that seeks after a sign . So he is not changing his mind in Mathew 24.
Luk 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
They asked for that kind of a sign (a sign and wonder) and he give them sign of observation as in things will continue like normal, earth quakes but the end is not yet, wars but the end is not yet., famine but the end is not yet, people giving into marriage but the end is not yet and then after the end will come. No prior direct sign Then he will come as a thief in the night on the "last day"
.
Just as it was in the time of Noah when the hearts of men were evil all the time and most were not walking by the faith that came from hearing God .
No outwards signs to seek after as a wonder today .
The promise is that our invisible God would come as a outward demonstration in the flesh as the Son of man......... once.
Hoping he would appear in the same flesh that he said does not profit the first time ... to come again as if the veil was not rent, according to my understanding is no different than saying he did not come the first time. His kingdom does not come by observation we walk by the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God.
God is not a man as us he remains without mother and father, without beginning of Spirit life or end of Spirit life .
2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
If we are not careful we will simply repeat the work of the Antichrist in the garden of Eden alluring men to walk by sight and not by the faith of God who has no form.
Good day MatthewG,
The lake of fire is not a place of purification, but a place of punishment. Fire as a purification is a Roman Catholic teaching, as in Purgatory.
First of all, you left out a very important part of the scripture. So here it is in its entirety:
”If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
First of all, it does in fact say that God's wrath will be "endless wrath upon them." You just left that part of the scripture out which says that God's wrath will be "poured full strength" which means that there is no grace or mercy mixed in. And second, regarding their torment in the lake of fire it states that the smoke of their torment will rise "forever and ever and there will be no rest day or night." This would remove any notion of their torment as being purifying or temporary.
Once a person dies their record is sealed and grace and mercy are no longer in operation. There is no offer or opportunity to receive Christ after death. If what you said was true, everlasting fire would not be everlasting and that because once a person experienced the torment of flame in Sheol/Hades, there would not be one person who wouldn't except the offer of salvation.
There is no "total reconciliation." Only those who receive Christ are reconciled to God. Anyone rejects Christ and dies in that state are lost and will be judged for their sins.
The lake of fire is not a place of purification, but a place of punishment. Fire as a purification is a Roman Catholic teaching, as in Purgatory.
First of all, you left out a very important part of the scripture. So here it is in its entirety:
”If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
First of all, it does in fact say that God's wrath will be "endless wrath upon them." You just left that part of the scripture out which says that God's wrath will be "poured full strength" which means that there is no grace or mercy mixed in. And second, regarding their torment in the lake of fire it states that the smoke of their torment will rise "forever and ever and there will be no rest day or night." This would remove any notion of their torment as being purifying or temporary.
Once a person dies their record is sealed and grace and mercy are no longer in operation. There is no offer or opportunity to receive Christ after death. If what you said was true, everlasting fire would not be everlasting and that because once a person experienced the torment of flame in Sheol/Hades, there would not be one person who wouldn't except the offer of salvation.
There is no "total reconciliation." Only those who receive Christ are reconciled to God. Anyone rejects Christ and dies in that state are lost and will be judged for their sins.
Revelation 14
in Johns day, people where worshipping the beast.
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
If anyone worships the beast, whom is namely Nero, anyone who worship him, the statues that were around of Him, and worshiping his idologys in their mind. (Present tense)
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, (future tense)
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
Nero commanded people to worship him day and night.
There would be no rest day or night them who were following Nero, who was the beast, the name that is related to 666, being worshipped as a God. (This is on Earth)
There would be no rest day or night, they would have to recieve the mark to be able to trade sell and buy, and eat.
in Johns day, people where worshipping the beast.
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
If anyone worships the beast, whom is namely Nero, anyone who worship him, the statues that were around of Him, and worshiping his idologys in their mind. (Present tense)
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, (future tense)
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
Nero commanded people to worship him day and night.
There would be no rest day or night them who were following Nero, who was the beast, the name that is related to 666, being worshipped as a God. (This is on Earth)
There would be no rest day or night, they would have to recieve the mark to be able to trade sell and buy, and eat.
Last edited:
Brother Rickyz, you are entitled to what you believe brother. I wish I could respond more on the 2 peter.
I see the passing away, and melting away of elements kind of like, when we are saved, in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we start to walk with Him and our old self starts passing away, and walking under the new heaven (holy spirt), and new earth (Having the Kingdom of Heaven in you by believe in the Lord Jesus Christ).
The old Heaven was just the Sky, now the new heaven is the spirit.
The old Earth was the material religious part of it, the new earth, is made new because all of the Material religion the Age of Moses, and the Law, temples, Sacrifices, Preisthoods, geneologys, was destoryed in Ad 70.
So what I am trying to say, is when you become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and walk with Him the earth passes away and becomes new again because we are remained into a new creation, living by the spirit, and having a relationship with God, and we become part of the New Jerusalem a citizen of the heavenly city, having the Kingdom of heaven residing in their hearts as believers.
God bless friend.
I see the passing away, and melting away of elements kind of like, when we are saved, in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we start to walk with Him and our old self starts passing away, and walking under the new heaven (holy spirt), and new earth (Having the Kingdom of Heaven in you by believe in the Lord Jesus Christ).
The old Heaven was just the Sky, now the new heaven is the spirit.
The old Earth was the material religious part of it, the new earth, is made new because all of the Material religion the Age of Moses, and the Law, temples, Sacrifices, Preisthoods, geneologys, was destoryed in Ad 70.
So what I am trying to say, is when you become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and walk with Him the earth passes away and becomes new again because we are remained into a new creation, living by the spirit, and having a relationship with God, and we become part of the New Jerusalem a citizen of the heavenly city, having the Kingdom of heaven residing in their hearts as believers.
God bless friend.
Interesting comments here Matt - I posted this a while ago in regard to the usage of elements in the new testament:
The elements that Peter was talking about "melting with fervent heat" are not chemicals/atoms there are the "elements" of the Jewish religion of the old covenant.
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (Greek - stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat?
----------------------------------------------------------
G4747 stoicheion stoy-khi'-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748;
something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively).
KJV: element, principle, rudiment.
----------------------------------------------------------
Same usage occurs here:
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (Greek - stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If we look back in the old testament we see how the first heavens and earth of Israel were created:
Isa 51:16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
Isaiah is speaking of the "heaven and earth" created when God gave his words to Israel at Mount Sinai not the creation of the physical heaven and earth.
"Heaven" and "earth" represent the two covenants. The new covenant is the new creation/"heaven" and "earth" established in the 1st century AD when the old covenant with it's "heaven" and "earth" passed away.
The elements that Peter was talking about "melting with fervent heat" are not chemicals/atoms there are the "elements" of the Jewish religion of the old covenant.
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (Greek - stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat?
----------------------------------------------------------
G4747 stoicheion stoy-khi'-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748;
something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively).
KJV: element, principle, rudiment.
----------------------------------------------------------
Same usage occurs here:
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (Greek - stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If we look back in the old testament we see how the first heavens and earth of Israel were created:
Isa 51:16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
Isaiah is speaking of the "heaven and earth" created when God gave his words to Israel at Mount Sinai not the creation of the physical heaven and earth.
"Heaven" and "earth" represent the two covenants. The new covenant is the new creation/"heaven" and "earth" established in the 1st century AD when the old covenant with it's "heaven" and "earth" passed away.
Narrow it down though as to who it was who worshiped the beast and bought and sold with it's mark...?
Was it the Jews involved in the war from ad66-70? Was it Roman citizens in general? Was it the Christians who lived then? Who was it that took the image of Nero and used it to buy and sell with and worshiped him?
This is something I thought about a long time ago, 
Because I use to imagine the world exploding, and melting down like a wax paint.
But glad I see really what it talking about now.
Anyone, in the time that Nero the Beast was ruling. Anyone that followed Nero the Beast, received the mark as the scripture states here. They were commanded to worship Him, day and night. There was statues of Him everywhere, people would bow and worship with their hands, and have his ideologys in their heads, because they followed and listened to him.
Rome was a big empire, and there was things going on between them and the Jews, who were involved.
Nero would kill Christians, for fun. He would set them on fire placing them on poles, lighting the way for him towards his parties he would have sometimes. He would use them in the arena, and watch them be torn apart, placing animal skins around them, and things as such...
If they didn't follow him Christians were killed, and those who did follow him received the mark, to buy/sell/trade amongst themselves.
Not sure how much more you want nerrowed down? <- see what I did there lol.
I hope I answered your question is seems like I just went back over it again really.
God bless friend.
Because I use to imagine the world exploding, and melting down like a wax paint. But glad I see really what it talking about now.
Anyone, in the time that Nero the Beast was ruling. Anyone that followed Nero the Beast, received the mark as the scripture states here. They were commanded to worship Him, day and night. There was statues of Him everywhere, people would bow and worship with their hands, and have his ideologys in their heads, because they followed and listened to him.
Rome was a big empire, and there was things going on between them and the Jews, who were involved.
Nero would kill Christians, for fun. He would set them on fire placing them on poles, lighting the way for him towards his parties he would have sometimes. He would use them in the arena, and watch them be torn apart, placing animal skins around them, and things as such...
If they didn't follow him Christians were killed, and those who did follow him received the mark, to buy/sell/trade amongst themselves.
Not sure how much more you want nerrowed down? <- see what I did there lol.
I hope I answered your question is seems like I just went back over it again really.
God bless friend.
This is something I thought about a long time ago, Because I use to imagine the world exploding, and melting down like a wax paint.
But glad I see really what it talking about now.
Anyone, in the time that Nero the Beast was ruling. Anyone that followed Nero the Beast, received the mark as the scripture states here. They were commanded to worship Him, day and night. There was statues of Him everywhere, people would bow and worship with their hands, and have his ideologys in their heads, because they followed and listened to him.
Rome was a big empire, and there was things going on between them and the Jews, who were involved.
Nero would kill Christians, for fun. He would set them on fire placing them on poles, lighting the way for him towards his parties he would have sometimes. He would use them in the arena, and watch them be torn apart, placing animal skins around them, and things as such...
If they didn't follow him Christians were killed, and those who did follow him received the mark, to buy/sell/trade amongst themselves.
Not sure how much more you want nerrowed down? <- see what I did there lol.
I hope I answered your question is seems like I just went back over it again really.
God bless friend.
Because I use to imagine the world exploding, and melting down like a wax paint. But glad I see really what it talking about now.
Anyone, in the time that Nero the Beast was ruling. Anyone that followed Nero the Beast, received the mark as the scripture states here. They were commanded to worship Him, day and night. There was statues of Him everywhere, people would bow and worship with their hands, and have his ideologys in their heads, because they followed and listened to him.
Rome was a big empire, and there was things going on between them and the Jews, who were involved.
Nero would kill Christians, for fun. He would set them on fire placing them on poles, lighting the way for him towards his parties he would have sometimes. He would use them in the arena, and watch them be torn apart, placing animal skins around them, and things as such...
If they didn't follow him Christians were killed, and those who did follow him received the mark, to buy/sell/trade amongst themselves.
Not sure how much more you want nerrowed down? <- see what I did there lol.
I hope I answered your question is seems like I just went back over it again really.
God bless friend.
The premise of thinking is that God pours his wrath out on those who worship the beast or use his money to buy and sell or his name. Now then if the Jews who were killed in the siege of Jerusalem were these who worshiped Caesar as their God this would make sense because Rome did not end in the first century nor did the citizens of Rome suffer any of this (in the Roman empire). So in fact instead of facing it's very end Rome won the war and continued in power for years after this point in time.
As for the Jews as you know from Josephus Josephus: Of the War, Book II (see chapters 9,10...) did not worship Caesar as God nor did they stand idle and let them put their images in Jerusalem but demanded that their customs be honored. These same Jews refused to use Romes money at the beginning of the revolt and minted their own coins and used them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and so it could not be said that they bought and sold with Nero's money nor worship him as God because they "revolted,rebelled" instead.
Really? So then plainly tell me what i have said that is contrary to Scriptures. If then you can do that, then and only then has my admission proved me to be wrong. But just because YOU think i am wrong does not make it so, now does it? If then i have said something contrary to Scriptures then reveal what i said and the Scriptures that contradicts it, this is not hard to do, if indeed you think i have done this.
Tell me, yes or no. Those Believers who sow to their flesh are they appointed to suffer? YES OR NO?
Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
So tell me, if a believer sows to his/her flesh, are they still NOT going to suffer tribulation in their flesh? Just because we are not appointed to suffer His Wrath, does not mean we, by our own doing, will not suffer His wrath because of the choices that we freely make. If you sow to the flesh of that flesh you WILL reap corruption.
So you go ahead and believe that because you are not appointed to wrath, that you are not going to suffer His wrath because of your own sinning, and see if you are not one of those that are weeping and gnashing their teeth because they ARE suffering from His wrath because of their own sinning in the past.
Anyone, and i don't care who you are, even myself is included, ANYONE who claims Jesus is their Master and Lord, that chooses to obey His enemy and live in sins, is going to suffer from His Wrath, that is the TRUTH. Anyone who think they can continue to live in sins, and NOT suffer from His Wrath are deceived and do not know the TRUTH. So even though when we Get saved we are NOT appointed to God's Wrath, which thing is absolutely TRUE, but when we freely choose to live in sin, we will reap what we ourselves have sown, we will reap His Wrath, even though at one time we were not appointed to His Wrath. NOBODY can escape the Word of God that plainly teaches.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Those who do that which is unrighteous is unrighteous Scriptures teaches. So then this verse plainly teaches that the Wrath of God comes upon those who do those things that are unrighteous. Again if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption. If you sow to the flesh you will receive the wrath of God.
Who is wrath for?
Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (live in sin) indignation and wrath,
It goes on to say:
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
So then even though True Christians are not appointed to wrath, IF you do those things YOU WILL SUFFER HIS WRATH.
It is because of your interpreting of 1Thes.4:13-18 as being the same as Matt.24:29-31 as being the same that you err.[/QUOTE]
Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Again, yet another verse that plainly teaches God's wrath is going to come upon ANYONE, even those in the Church, that does evil.
Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Who are they that His Wrath will come upon according to this Inspired by God Scriptures? Children who disobey? Tell me, Since a believer is not appointed to God's Wrath, will that believer suffer God's wrath if they disobey Him like this verse says they will? Are they ABOVE Scriptures?
1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Jesus when we Got Saved, most assuredly paid the cost of all our past sins, took the punishment for those past sins, The day we Got Saved, we were white as snow, HOLY, clean, pure, just, righteous, and were not appointed to the wrath to come. But when we freely chose to continue to live in sin, we have returned to the mire, we have eaten our own vomit again, we have dirtied ourselves up again, we, because of our choosing to live in sins, are now appointed to God's wrath, because we are going to reap what we have freely sown.
1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
This is absolutely TRUE, but if we choose to obey His enemy and continue to live in sins, the we are most certainly appointed for His Wrath. What? Do you think 1Th 5:9 negates all the verses which teach you will reap what you sow, that you will be repaid for the wrongs that you have done, that you will reap corruption in your flesh if you have sown to the flesh. You do error if you think one verse negates, or makes void another verse in Scriptures.
We are NOT appointed to His Wrath. FACT and TRUE. But if we freely choose to disobey, freely choose to live in sins, freely choose to obey the enemy of God, if you freely choose to sow to your flesh, then i assure you all those other verses that say and teach you are appointed for wrath is also FACT and TRUE.
You teach that believers are not appointed to wrath. i have shown you verse after verse that proves those who continue to live in sin, whether they are believers or not, are appointed to His wrath.
So then you say i am wrong based on your own interpretations and NOT what Scriptures actually teaches.
And i can likewise say the following:
It is because of your interpreting of 1Thes.4:13-18 as being different as Matt.24:29-31 as being different that you err.
Scriptures teach that Jesus is coming back a second time.
You teach He is coming back a second time and then going back to Heaven then coming back to Earth a third time. This is NOT what Scriptures teach anywhere at all, nor does Scriptures even implies such a thing.
Woe to men who take it upon themselves to interpret the Word of God, they fail to understand Scriptures which teach "Interpretations belong to God" Not to men.
Do you not interpret Scriptures that Jesus comes back a third time? This is a perfect example why men should not try interpreting the Word of God.
Jesus came the first time in meekness and humbleness. He will come the second time with Power, and might, and He will be King of all the kingdoms of the Earth, He will reign with a rod of iron over all the sinners of the Earth. All the nations that come against Him when He gets here the second time with the Holy City, will utterly be destroyed. Those who did not attack the Holy City and did not get raptured up with Jesus will comes and worship Jesus year to year, and if they don't come up to worship Jesus, Jesus will cause it not to rain on their lands and their lands, no matter where they are at on the Earth will become barren, Then those sinners will indeed come up year to year to worship Jesus. And they will hate it, but will do it anyways.
There is not a coming of Jesus a third time. That teaching is a lie and most certainly NOT Scriptural. But leave it to the interpretations of men and women to corrupt the TRUTH of Scriptures, to make Scriptures fit into their own thinking. Instead of changing their belief to line up with Scriptures.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
The Rapture is revealed in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
When Jesus comes back the second time to the Earth is when the Rapture takes place.
Tell me, When Jesus Gets here the second time and the first dead person rises first. Do all the other dead people see that dead person rising? No. So then all the dead SAINTS rise first correct, then the living? Correct? Yes that is correct. So then the first living person that sees Jesus coming from the EAST will be accompanied by all the dead SAINTS that were previously risen, correct? So then then living see Jesus coming with the Saints, is this not correct?
People wake up from your sleeping. Jesus is coming back a second time, He teaches us to be ready, ready for what? Him coming back the second time. There is not a third time coming back. Scriptures does not teach that nonsense. When Jesus comes back to the Earth, He is here to stay and reign over the entire World. And when He gets here with the Holy City, He will go around the Earth collecting the dead Saints first then He will go around the Earth again with the Saints and the Angels with Him, collecting the living Saints. The Holy City will rest upon four mountains over where Jerusalem is now. A great valley will be under the Holy City. Rivers of living water will proceed from the Holy City to water the whole Earth. Wherever the Water touches will become like the Garden of Eden.
When Jesus gets here the second time, is when we the Saints will reign with Him over the entire Earth. For the next 3 1/2 years the vials will be poured out on the Earth, this is to wipe all those who were not taken in the Rapture off the face of the Earth. When all the wicked people have ceased to be at the end of the 3 1/2 years, is when satan and his followers will be cast into confinement, for the next 1,000 years we the Saints reign with Jesus here on Earth over the children that were redeemed from the Earth, His firstfruits, these are humans, they are virgins, they are the 144,000 that will repopulate the Earth, and Jesus and us Saints will reign over them for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years satan is freed and he tries to Capture the Holy City. If he gains access to the Holy City he will have free roam of the entire universe. But as long as he can, he is trying to get more souls to fight for him during this last battle for the Holy City. he will wait his day of confinement, and then attack the City. If he succeeds, which he thinks he will, because he will have the numbers, he will escape the confinement of planet Earth, and be freed from this prison. If he does not succeed, he will be cast into Hell for all eternity never to tempt another soul again to sin against God. This is what is going to Happen, and even if you don't believe me now, you will when you see it happening exactly as i said it is going to happen.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
When Jesus comes back the second time to the Earth is when the Rapture takes place.
Tell me, When Jesus Gets here the second time and the first dead person rises first. Do all the other dead people see that dead person rising? No. So then all the dead SAINTS rise first correct, then the living? Correct? Yes that is correct. So then the first living person that sees Jesus coming from the EAST will be accompanied by all the dead SAINTS that were previously risen, correct? So then then living see Jesus coming with the Saints, is this not correct?
People wake up from your sleeping. Jesus is coming back a second time, He teaches us to be ready, ready for what? Him coming back the second time. There is not a third time coming back. Scriptures does not teach that nonsense. When Jesus comes back to the Earth, He is here to stay and reign over the entire World. And when He gets here with the Holy City, He will go around the Earth collecting the dead Saints first then He will go around the Earth again with the Saints and the Angels with Him, collecting the living Saints. The Holy City will rest upon four mountains over where Jerusalem is now. A great valley will be under the Holy City. Rivers of living water will proceed from the Holy City to water the whole Earth. Wherever the Water touches will become like the Garden of Eden.
When Jesus gets here the second time, is when we the Saints will reign with Him over the entire Earth. For the next 3 1/2 years the vials will be poured out on the Earth, this is to wipe all those who were not taken in the Rapture off the face of the Earth. When all the wicked people have ceased to be at the end of the 3 1/2 years, is when satan and his followers will be cast into confinement, for the next 1,000 years we the Saints reign with Jesus here on Earth over the children that were redeemed from the Earth, His firstfruits, these are humans, they are virgins, they are the 144,000 that will repopulate the Earth, and Jesus and us Saints will reign over them for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years satan is freed and he tries to Capture the Holy City. If he gains access to the Holy City he will have free roam of the entire universe. But as long as he can, he is trying to get more souls to fight for him during this last battle for the Holy City. he will wait his day of confinement, and then attack the City. If he succeeds, which he thinks he will, because he will have the numbers, he will escape the confinement of planet Earth, and be freed from this prison. If he does not succeed, he will be cast into Hell for all eternity never to tempt another soul again to sin against God. This is what is going to Happen, and even if you don't believe me now, you will when you see it happening exactly as i said it is going to happen.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
At the time of the Rapture. Jesus gathers up the Saints to be with Him where He is, and that is in the Holy City, and the 144,00 are already sealed humans. During this time there will be three types of people.
1) The Saints, those taken
2) The Lost, those not taken
3) The 144,000 human children that are sealed
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
1) The Saints, those taken
2) The Lost, those not taken
3) The 144,000 human children that are sealed
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Hello DD,
The "sign of his coming" is all of the events leading up to the "end of the age." It is speaking in regards to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, not the gathering of the church. Everything that Jesus says in answer to the disciples question is leading up his literal return to the earth which is fulfilled in Matt.24:29-31
The "sign of his coming" is all of the events leading up to the "end of the age." It is speaking in regards to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, not the gathering of the church. Everything that Jesus says in answer to the disciples question is leading up his literal return to the earth which is fulfilled in Matt.24:29-31
And who told you, or what Scriptures say, that the gathering of the church is NOT the end of the age? When Jesus comes the Second time and takes up the Church with Him, and destroys all the wicked off the Earth, i assure you then end of this age has happened?
What is this age? Is not this the age of sinners on Earth? Does it not say satan is the God of this World? Is Jesus reigning right now, or is satan reigning on Earth right now? This is the age of satan. That end comes when Jesus gets here the second time.
You see you interpret the end of the age to happen at the end of everything right? But the end of the age is the age of sinners being present on the Earth. It is the age of sinners on this planet right now, it is not the age of Jesus yet.
When Jesus gets here, all kingdoms of the Earth then belong to HIM, This event happens at the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation, as it plainly says this event happens. This is the beginning of His reign on Earth, the beginning of His AGE, and the end of this age that we live in now.
The end of this age is when this Earth and this Heaven are destroyed and we have a new Heaven and a new Earth, thus a NEW AGE with Jesus Christ. This New Heaven and New Earth is created in 7 years. The process of destroying this planet and atmosphere is what we call the Great Tribulation Period. The end of this age happens when
1) Satan is bound, no more people sinning
2) New Heaven and Earth are created
3) No sinner remains on Earth
All this happens before the thousand years when satan is bound.
You disagree with what i teach, yet you have not shown any Scriptures that contradict what i teach. Sure you show Scriptures that YOU interpret to mean this or that and this or that contradicts what i teach, but no Scriptures contradict what i teach. Brother i am telling you the Absolute Truth, what i am telling you is what God told me is going to happen, and there is not one verse that contradicts what He told me.
Now i know it makes you feel better thinking that you are disagreeing with me, DiscipleDave, but of a TRUTH you are indeed disagreeing with what God told me. Now if it makes you feel better thinking that devils are talking to me, that is your right, Wrong you would be, but your right to believe as you will.
What i tell you is going to happen did not come from my mind, did not come from my studies, did not come from my intellect. what i tell you is merely me repeating what He told me to tell this generation and what is to come. And since 1994 i have been doing just that. What i teach is from God.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Everything that Jesus says in answer to the disciples question is leading up his literal return to the earth which is fulfilled in Matt.24:29-31
[/QUOTE]