What is "spiritually dead?"

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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#221
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#221
Renewed:
That statement does not mesh with what is written in Genesis 2:17 in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die [dying at the time (image of God [spirit] died] you shall die [you will eventually take your last breath and your body will die]

stones:
Adam and Eve did die. Just not that 24 hour period. Other writings state that they were to bring forth light beings. Chabad.org is a place to read if you are interested. Or we can just disagree agreeably? :)
The image of God includes Light. So bright if one were to look into the face of God, the brightness would consume. That's a mortal man, not a spiritual man.
Spirit is what we are. Soul is our humanity, our emotions, our mind, etc. How we respond to our world. And soul must be saved after the new birth.

Renewed:
Adam and Eve were spiritual beings first. Then that spirit within died at the time they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, leaving Adam and Eve with body and soul and non-living (dead) spirit.

Adam's descendants were/are/will be begotten in his [Adam's] likeness, after his image (Gen 5:3).

stones:
Again, I see the spirit being transformed and renewed with the born again experience. Chabad states that possibly before the fall, the state of man was similar to Jesus afterHis ressurrection. No blood. Spirit, body, bone.

Renewed:
In OT, Holy Spirit came upon those who God determined. There was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time. Holy Spirit could also depart as determined by God (1 Sam 16:14). David prayed that God would not take away holy spirit from him (Psalm 51:11).

After Day of Pentecost, those who are born again have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That spirit which was not alive at birth is made alive at new birth. Then there is spiritual growth/maturity which takes place as we learn to walk in light of who and what we are in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We become weak in who we were in Adam and we become strong in who we are in Christ. And it is God Who works within us and we are confident that He which hath begun a good work in [us] will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (at which point we will be changed as shown in 1 Cor 15).

stones:
Are you saying without a spirit at all before the new birth, or just not lifed? For when I read a Spirits dead, there is an absence of it. Am I misunderstanding? Otherwise, I agree with this part.

Renewed:
Yes. Jesus is the true Light (John 1:7-9).

Stones:
ok

Renewed:
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

stones:
thank you for looking it up. Again, proof of having a spirit. A darkened spirit would respond to darkness. The reign of Satan. Just as a lifed Spirit with The Spirit of Christ, responds to God-Light. The biblical understanding of light - God. Not comparing God to switching on electricity to light a room. Though in a minor way....? Lol

Did you see that night in the first chapter of Genesis means a twist away from light? And didn't we discuss these things before? :)

Renewed:
My understanding is that those who take part in the second death are those whose names were blotted out of the book of life due to continuous rejection of God when He reached out to them during their lifetime on earth. They restrained the truth in unrighteousness when God knocked on the doors of their hearts. So sad.

stones:
I can't say for sure. But, I don't think anyone will be in hell that wants to be with Him.





Rest well.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#222
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
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#222
stonesoffire said:
Adam and Eve did die. Just not that 24 hour period. Other writings state that they were to bring forth light beings. Chabad.org is a place to read if you are interested. Or we can just disagree agreeably?
Click to expand...
Yeah ... not an issue over which we should disagreeably disagree.




stonesoffire said:
The image of God includes Light. So bright if one were to look into the face of God, the brightness would consume. That's a mortal man, not a spiritual man.
Spirit is what we are. Soul is our humanity, our emotions, our mind, etc. How we respond to our world. And soul must be saved after the new birth.
Click to expand...
So when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and their light was extinguished, was that a type of death?

"Spirit is what we are" and the descendants of Adam were born with spirit which no longer blazed / glowed with the light of the image of God. To me, this is "dead spirit". It is empty / void of life.




stonesoffire said:
Again, I see the spirit being transformed and renewed with the born again experience. Chabad states that possibly before the fall, the state of man was similar to Jesus afterHis ressurrection. No blood. Spirit, body, bone.
Click to expand...
OT believers were not "born again" in the same sense that we, in our day and time (after Day of Pentecost), are born again.

OT believers had faith in the same Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but they looked forward to the time we now live in:

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.




stonesoffire said:
Are you saying without a spirit at all before the new birth, or just not lifed? For when I read a Spirits dead, there is an absence of it. Am I misunderstanding? Otherwise, I agree with this part.
Click to expand...
Not without a spirit at all, just that the spirit of man is "just not lifed" (using your vernacular).




stonesoffire said:
thank you for looking it up. Again, proof of having a spirit. A darkened spirit would respond to darkness. The reign of Satan. Just as a lifed Spirit with The Spirit of Christ, responds to God-Light. The biblical understanding of light - God. Not comparing God to switching on electricity to light a room. Though in a minor way....? Lol
Click to expand...
Spirit of man is not just darkened, it is pitch black with no light. As God's Word is spoken to a person, he/she can reject that Word and the Word does not reach the heart where God works to bring forth fruit.

Look at Romans 1:

18 – ungodliness and unrighteousness – suppress the truth in unrighteousness

21 – when they knew God – when the truth of God is spoken to them and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart remains deprived of light.

24 – As they continue in their foolishness, God gives them up to uncleanness.

26 – As they continue in their uncleanness, God gives them up unto vile affections.

28 – As they continue in their vile affections, God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

That is what happens to those who continuously reject God's Word when it is spoken to them. It's not like they reject one time and BOOM too late. It's a continuous reaching out by God (through those who have come to faith preaching the truth) throughout their lifetime and a continuous rejection on the part of those who move further and further from God.

On the other hand, when a person does not reject the truth of God's Word, that Word settles in the heart where God brings forth the increase. This, too, is a lifelong endeavor in the life of the believer. Little by little, bit by bit, we are being conformed into the image of His Son.




stonesoffire said:
Did you see that night in the first chapter of Genesis means a twist away from light? And didn't we discuss these things before?
Click to expand...
Yes, I recall we spoke about that before. Interesting discussion.




stonesoffire said:
I can't say for sure. But, I don't think anyone will be in hell that wants to be with Him.
Click to expand...
Right. God is very loving and gracious toward us. His mercy is so precious. So sad that people do not want to have a relationship with Him. Empty life.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#223
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#223
reneweddaybyday said:

Yeah ... not an issue over which we should disagreeably disagree.





So when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and their light was extinguished, was that a type of death?

"Spirit is what we are" and the descendants of Adam were born with spirit which no longer blazed / glowed with the light of the image of God. To me, this is "dead spirit". It is empty / void of life.





OT believers were not "born again" in the same sense that we, in our day and time (after Day of Pentecost), are born again.

OT believers had faith in the same Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but they looked forward to the time we now live in:

Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.





Not without a spirit at all, just that the spirit of man is "just not lifed" (using your vernacular).





Spirit of man is not just darkened, it is pitch black with no light. As God's Word is spoken to a person, he/she can reject that Word and the Word does not reach the heart where God works to bring forth fruit.

Look at Romans 1:

18 – ungodliness and unrighteousness – suppress the truth in unrighteousness

21 – when they knew God – when the truth of God is spoken to them and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart remains deprived of light.

24 – As they continue in their foolishness, God gives them up to uncleanness.

26 – As they continue in their uncleanness, God gives them up unto vile affections.

28 – As they continue in their vile affections, God gives them over to a reprobate mind.

That is what happens to those who continuously reject God's Word when it is spoken to them. It's not like they reject one time and BOOM too late. It's a continuous reaching out by God (through those who have come to faith preaching the truth) throughout their lifetime and a continuous rejection on the part of those who move further and further from God.

On the other hand, when a person does not reject the truth of God's Word, that Word settles in the heart where God brings forth the increase. This, too, is a lifelong endeavor in the life of the believer. Little by little, bit by bit, we are being conformed into the image of His Son.





Yes, I recall we spoke about that before. Interesting discussion.





Right. God is very loving and gracious toward us. His mercy is so precious. So sad that people do not want to have a relationship with Him. Empty life.
Click to expand...
There really isn't anything that you've written here that I would say is so far apart from how I view this. Just one thing I would clear up. I didn't mean to infer that OT saints were born again. I know they weren't. I'm glad that we all were born for such a time as this. Not sure if that phrase is scripture. Never looked, but I hear it all the time in Pentecostal churches.

And i cant imagine being cut off from God forever. Salvation is such a wonderful gift, and the best way to live a full life. Without Jesus, there really can't be such a thing either.

Anyway, enjoyed the discussion. If you have anything more to add, please do. One thing renewed, you keep me on my toes. This subject I've not thought about since our last chat. :)
 
Locutus

Locutus

Senior Member
#224
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#224
Death and being alive had a deeper/broader concept in Hebraic thought as can be seen Jesus' parable:

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#225
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#225
Locutus said:
Death and being alive had a deeper/broader concept in Hebraic thought as can be seen Jesus' parable:

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Click to expand...
I think the whole of the Hebrew language is so poetic, that I wonder how they could relate to one another without the words, "no, I mean something different".

Lol
 
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