Not By Works

[NoNameMcgee]

Works salvation and sinless perfection are surely false doctrines. But so is saying works don't matter to salvation because salvation is not by works, and because you can't lose your salvation. We need to lead them to the truth, not to another error.

Note, I'm not challenging your once saved always saved belief itself. I'm challenging the teaching that says you don't have to do works because you can't lose salvation.

note

youre supposed to use scripture and build your brothers / sisters up unto all good works
pray constantly
demonstrate the fruits of the spritit

but your performance level in this does not pertain to salvation after being born again

1 fruit 30 fruit 80 fruit

none of this adds to what was done on the cross

and any work done to attempt to gain salvation outside by grace through faith is a dirty rag

God not letting His children perish is biblical

regardless of how you feel about it

its proven in scripture

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Exactly. That's what I've been saying.

Corrupt trees are not saved trees. If they were, they wouldn't be corrupt.

Fruitless people don't get to go into the kingdom because they are not saved, their corruption testifying to the fact they are not saved.

The new grace doctrine in the church says they are saved, just as long as they believed some time in the past.

do you understand the difference

you can believe of God
and seek Him and never be saved or born again

then believe IN God and seek Him
He will make you a new creature

the Holy spirit in you will testify of this

you can have complete
and total assurance and KNOW you are saved

in fact
you ought to


its only satan who casts doubt to someone who is already born again and saved

you can never lose this salvation

fruits aside

you are born of an incorruptible seed


1 Peter 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

bump for context to help preston

1 John 3
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

^^^^^^^^^^^

1 John 2
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

The WHOLE Bible on a particular topic needs to be read and understood. Leaving out James 2 leaves faith alone but James 2 is part of the Bible!!!

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - (barren of works - James 2:14-17).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[NoNameMcgee]

e...,

Please explain the following scriptures then;

1 John 2:18,19. 15:10
2Corin 11: 13-15.

For starters.

1 john 18 19

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


clearly supports those were never of us

2 cor

10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


do you see whos end is according to their works?

false believers....


nothing to do with eternal salvation to Gods children

 

[NoNameMcgee]

last time im bumping this for you

p


you can choose to ignore it..

i expect you will

Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

 

[dcontroversal]

Exactly. That's what I've been saying.

Corrupt trees are not saved trees. If they were, they wouldn't be corrupt.

Fruitless people don't get to go into the kingdom because they are not saved, their corruption testifying to the fact they are not saved.

The new grace doctrine in the church says they are saved, just as long as they believed some time in the past.

You can forget it.......the bible is clear.....ALL who have genuinely trusted Christ have done the works of the Heavenly Father already in exercising faith.......and the bible is equally clear...there are those who works are fried because they are of wood, hay and stubble (regardless of who they are applied unto) ad they are still saved as though through the fire. Your gospel of---> I am not saved until Jesus sees my works at the end is false, contrary to the bible and is not of God....as a matter of fact your whole premise is false......

 

[dcontroversal]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5273&t=KJV

What are the two Greek words that make up the word hypocrite?

What is the correct understanding and application of the word that somehow makes it so fake, phony, and false 'actors' won't be destroyed when Jesus comes back?

The new grace doctrine in the church says they will be saved (just as long as they believed some time in the past). Jesus said they will go to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Who should we believe?

There is no NEW grace doctrine....GRACE and one taking our place is found woven through the bible....wake up....the LAW demanded the death of DAVID, he was SPARED because the innocent SON of DAVID took his place....that is GRACE and that is the PICTURE of CHRIST...the same picture which your false working for dogma does not allow you to grasp....Ralph, you are a false teacher and your dogma that emphasizes works WILL take you someplace that you do not think you are going.....the bible is clear....those who have trusted CHRIST ARE SAVED ETERNALLY THE MOMENT OF BELIEF....VERB TENSE, and the scriptures TEACH this....in PRIDE you refuse to acknowledge this truth.......

 

[dcontroversal]

The new grace doctrine says the person who says they are a Christian but who does not live for Christ (a hypocrite) is still saved despite his ungodly, even now unbelieving life.

But this is what Christ says...

"suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."-Matthew 24:48-51


Works do matter. The person who says they are a Christian but who does not live a new life will not be saved when Jesus comes back.

Works not only show that we believe and are saved, but that we are continuing to believe. If we don't endure to the end we will not be saved in the end. The new grace doctrine says that doesn't matter because salvation is not by works, and once you are saved you can not lose your salvation. In that doctrine, not even hypocrisy can keep you out of the kingdom, even though Christ said it will.

Works do matter. They don't get you saved, but they do show you to be saved. Just as not having works shows you to not be saved.

That is not the way the word hypocrite is applied in the bible and your cited. scriptural example is applied unto who exactly.....think real HARD..........It was not directed at those who were acknowledging CHRIST pal, but rather those who were rejecting Christ and going about to establish their OWN righteousness.....KIND of like you and the works drivel that you place so much emphasis upon........

Which one is biblical.....

The JUST shall live by FAITH<---BIBLE

The JUST shall live by WORKS<--RAPLH

 

[Ralph-]

its only satan who casts doubt to someone who is already born again and saved

In the Bible it's called 'making your calling and election sure'.


"brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you"-2 Peter 1:10

"we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."-Hebrews 6:11-12


It's not called 'casting doubt on believers'. Satan did not write these passages. It's called making sure those who call themselves Christians really are Christians. As you can see it's right out of the Bible.

 

[dcontroversal]

Works salvation and sinless perfection are surely false doctrines. But so is saying works don't matter to salvation because salvation is not by works, and because you can't lose your salvation. We need to lead them to the truth, not to another error.

Note, I'm not challenging your once saved always saved belief itself. I'm challenging the teaching that says you don't have to do works because you can't lose salvation.

You have no challenge........the truth is simple.....You say you are not saved until the end when God sees your works.....The bible states that he who believes on the son is not condemned and God has SAVED (past tense) those who have believed (past Tense) on the SON......

You are false

The bible refutes you on so many levels.....Verb tense, context, verses, verbiage ALL contradict you dogma........and the funny thing (sic) is you exercise the same PRIDE the Pharisees exercised with their vanilla café blend dogma as well......

LORD LORD LOOKIE at ALL MY WONDERFUL WORKS THAT PROVE I AM SAVED...............WRONG...............

 

[NoNameMcgee]

In the Bible it's called 'making your calling and election sure'.


"brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you"-2 Peter 1:10

"we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."-Hebrews 6:11-12


It's not called 'casting doubt on believers'. Satan did not write these passages. It's called making sure those who call themselves Christians really are Christians. As you can see it's right out of the Bible.

youre misunderstanding and conflating what i said with a verse that doesnt relate followed by your opinions


where in peter does it say to have doubt?

 

[dcontroversal]

note

youre supposed to use scripture and build your brothers / sisters up unto all good works
pray constantly
demonstrate the fruits of the spritit

but your performance level in this does not pertain to salvation after being born again

1 fruit 30 fruit 80 fruit

none of this adds to what was done on the cross

and any work done to attempt to gain salvation outside by grace through faith is a dirty rag

God not letting His children perish is biblical

regardless of how you feel about it

its proven in scripture

AMEN brother.......................I will NEVER leave thee NOR forsake the...........He did not say I will leave the and forsake thee if you do not do works.........

His reward is called MISTHOS<--->PAY or WAGES for service rendered......THOSE who SERVE get a big fat reward...those who are LAZY NOT SO MUCH.....but STILL SAVED and in the KINGDOM.......by the SKIN of their TEETH

 

[dcontroversal]

do you understand the difference

you can believe of God
and seek Him and never be saved or born again

then believe IN God and seek Him
He will make you a new creature

the Holy spirit in you will testify of this

you can have complete
and total assurance and KNOW you are saved

in fact
you ought to


its only satan who casts doubt to someone who is already born again and saved

you can never lose this salvation

fruits aside

you are born of an incorruptible seed


1 Peter 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

AMEN and I will embellish with....WE ARE KEPT by the POWER of GOD...........those who teach we can be LOST after being born of incorruptible SEED serve a weak, ineffectual god with a small (g) MY GOD is ALL POWERFUL and he PROMISES to KEEP my BY HIS POWER.........

 

[Ralph-]

you can have complete
and total assurance and KNOW you are saved

in fact
you ought to

Assurance that we are really saved comes from what we do, not from a doctrine about not being able to lose your salvation. You have to know you're really saved in the first place for that doctrine to mean anything. And the Bible says we know that we're really saved and ready to meet Jesus by our obedience to God's commands.


I don't care what people believe about once saved always saved being true or not. It doesn't matter because it does not take away the necessity for saved people to be obedient to God and walk as Jesus did.


"This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."-1 John 2:5-6


Once saved always saved does not matter. You can believe what you want about that. What is important is that you are living for God. John said that's how we know we are really saved. Hypocrites will not inherit the kingdom of God no matter what they believe about once saved always saved. Those who aren't being conformed to the image of God are not even born again to begin with for a once saved always saved argument to even matter.

 

[John146]

AMEN and I will embellish with....WE ARE KEPT by the POWER of GOD...........those who teach we can be LOST after being born of incorruptible SEED serve a weak, ineffectual god with a small (g) MY GOD is ALL POWERFUL and he PROMISES to KEEP my BY HIS POWER.........

Agreed! Somehow these people believe God can forgive them of all their sins they committed leading up to salvation, but God will not forgive all their sins committed after salvation.

I was a sinner before, and I am a sinner now. I will always be a sinner here on earth, but praise the Lord I am found in the one who never sinned, Jesus Christ! That's the only hope I have.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Assurance that we are really saved comes from what we do

nope

my assurance comes from what He did

 

[dcontroversal]

In the Bible it's called 'making your calling and election sure'.


"brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you"-2 Peter 1:10

"we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."-Hebrews 6:11-12


It's not called 'casting doubt on believers'. Satan did not write these passages. It's called making sure those who call themselves Christians really are Christians. As you can see it's right out of the Bible.

So is eternal salvation by grace through faith that is maintained and kept by the power and promises of GOD.....why do you deny and reject it in favor of I am not saved until my works are seen at the end....

You do realize by default you place yourself in the MANY that boast of their works in the end expecting to get in....HOW is it that you cannot see this....they are one and the same

LORD, LORD have I not done many wonderful works in your name <==people expecting the Lord to see their works at the end, declare them saved and allow them in

I am not saved until the end when the Lord sees my works <--Ralph expecting the Lord to see your works, declare you saved and let you in

OPEN YOUR EYES YOU TEACH THE SAME THING

 

[ElAmor]

EXACTLY.........

EXACTLY WHAT? THAT FAITH "ALONE" SAVES OR WAS IT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

GOD DID NOT CREATE ZOMBIES BUT HE CREATED MAN TO BE LIKE HIM IN TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS (ephesians 4:24), TO WALK IN THELIGHT AND NOT IN DARKNESS(1 john 1:.5-10) NOT TO JUST SAY AND CLAIM BUT TO DO AND WALK THE TALK, TO WALK AS JESUS DID(1 john 2:6) AND NOT BE A "WALKING DEAD".

Luke 6:46 The Wise and Foolish Builders “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

 

[dcontroversal]

Assurance that we are really saved comes from what we do, not from a doctrine about not being able to lose your salvation. You have to know you're really saved in the first place for that doctrine to mean anything. And the Bible says we know that we're really saved and ready to meet Jesus by our obedience to God's commands.


I don't care what people believe about once saved always saved being true or not. It doesn't matter because it does not take away the necessity for saved people to be obedient to God and walk as Jesus did.


"This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."-1 John 2:5-6


Once saved always saved does not matter. You can believe what you want about that. What is important is that you are living for God. John said that's how we know we are really saved. Hypocrites will not inherit the kingdom of God no matter what they believe about once saved always saved. Those who aren't being conformed to the image of God are not even born again to begin with for a once saved always saved argument to even matter.

The above is about as anti-biblical as can be.......and totally denies the promises and power of God, the very promises of JESUS and places what WE DO above what CHRIST has DONE and SAID......WOW.................this is NOT FAITH (bolded above)