Scriptural support for Free Will
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This is not the place to accuse another poster of not being saved. Why don't you provide for all your gospel. Show us where your gospel is superior.
Tell me about the blood of Christ, the grace of God and how to receive this great gift of eternal salvation. I suggest that you cease running down other posters and start lifting up Christ.
You read a book about mysticism so good for you. Now you judge everybody but you to be a mystic.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Tell me about the blood of Christ, the grace of God and how to receive this great gift of eternal salvation. I suggest that you cease running down other posters and start lifting up Christ.
You read a book about mysticism so good for you. Now you judge everybody but you to be a mystic.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Great question.
Here's your answer:
John 12:31Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
When Jesus came He made it possible to seek God. Why? Because no man can come to the Father, but through Him. There was no way to seek God without Christ.
Now I'll address your "none seek after God" Scripture further using the actual context.
Let's go to Romans 3...
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin.
Paul is about to quote an OT Scripture to validate that both Jews and Greeks - all need Jesus.
10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one;
11There is no one who understands;
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away;
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
This OT Scripture is telling us none are righteousness, this is the point of not seeking God, none do good. There is only one who does good, Jesus.
We see this further in the next verse here:
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
"None who seek God" is the Law speaking. After Christ was lifted up He draws ALL men to Himself.
Now I'll deal with the "whole world" needs context issue.
Notice in v19 it says every mouth and the whole world is accountable to God. So we know without a shadow of the doubt "whole world" means all people. Saved and unsaved. Jew and Greek.
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.
v20: None are justified by the works of the Law because it puts the focus on sin not on God. None seek after Him under the Law.
21But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
Say now. This means we are moving past the Law. And we are in a new time. And in this time, the age of grace, Christ who is the righteousness of God has been revealed. This means we can now SEE HIM. We now have access to the righteousness of God in Christ.
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
It's pretty clear to me, but I'll summarize v22-24 for you to look at for yourself. Taking everything IN context.
Righteousness in Christ is for ALL who believe. No distinction. None. All sinned, all fell short, all didn't seek Him, but NOW all are justified freely by HIS GRACE.
And it is this GRACE that allows us to come Him. Because Christ has made salvation available to all. No distinction. All those who believe in Him.
John 12:44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
None sought after God under the Law, but now when we see Christ, the WAY, we see God. And grace allows us to turn to Him.
And here's my question to you:
If God says He desires none to perish and for ALL to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) And Scripture says He sent His Son so that the whole world wouldn't perish. (John 3:16) Why do you say that God only chooses some for eternal life? Jesus says whosoever, but I hear you saying whoever God-soevers.
Here's your answer:
John 12:31Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
When Jesus came He made it possible to seek God. Why? Because no man can come to the Father, but through Him. There was no way to seek God without Christ.
Now I'll address your "none seek after God" Scripture further using the actual context.
Let's go to Romans 3...
9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin.
Paul is about to quote an OT Scripture to validate that both Jews and Greeks - all need Jesus.
10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one;
11There is no one who understands;
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away;
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
This OT Scripture is telling us none are righteousness, this is the point of not seeking God, none do good. There is only one who does good, Jesus.
We see this further in the next verse here:
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
"None who seek God" is the Law speaking. After Christ was lifted up He draws ALL men to Himself.
Now I'll deal with the "whole world" needs context issue.
Notice in v19 it says every mouth and the whole world is accountable to God. So we know without a shadow of the doubt "whole world" means all people. Saved and unsaved. Jew and Greek.
20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.
v20: None are justified by the works of the Law because it puts the focus on sin not on God. None seek after Him under the Law.
21But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
Say now. This means we are moving past the Law. And we are in a new time. And in this time, the age of grace, Christ who is the righteousness of God has been revealed. This means we can now SEE HIM. We now have access to the righteousness of God in Christ.
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
It's pretty clear to me, but I'll summarize v22-24 for you to look at for yourself. Taking everything IN context.
Righteousness in Christ is for ALL who believe. No distinction. None. All sinned, all fell short, all didn't seek Him, but NOW all are justified freely by HIS GRACE.
And it is this GRACE that allows us to come Him. Because Christ has made salvation available to all. No distinction. All those who believe in Him.
John 12:44And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
None sought after God under the Law, but now when we see Christ, the WAY, we see God. And grace allows us to turn to Him.
And here's my question to you:
If God says He desires none to perish and for ALL to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) And Scripture says He sent His Son so that the whole world wouldn't perish. (John 3:16) Why do you say that God only chooses some for eternal life? Jesus says whosoever, but I hear you saying whoever God-soevers.
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D
First, Sov did not say Ben wasn't saved. Read it again.
Second, why isn't this the place where we can or can't say if another is saved? Do you really want babes in Christ being fed by those who don't even know the Lord?
And, third, mysticism? Where did you pull that one out of the hat, and how is Sov being mystic? (Speaking of being judge and jury.)
Second, why isn't this the place where we can or can't say if another is saved? Do you really want babes in Christ being fed by those who don't even know the Lord?
And, third, mysticism? Where did you pull that one out of the hat, and how is Sov being mystic? (Speaking of being judge and jury.)
See you hit the nail right on the head. Israel thought because they were elect they had an inheritance in the kingdom of God. The Calvinist operates the same way. Declaring themselves to be elect they believe they have an inheritance in heaven.
God adopts not the proud and haughty but the meek and submissive. The soul that prostrates itself before a Holy and Just God. The soul that sees itself as justly due condemnation and seeks the mercy and grace of God for forgiveness. A soul that feels the great weight of sin and feels the heat of the fire of eternal condemnation. The soul that is so weak it cannot live that is the soul that Christ in mercy reaches down and lifts up and saves.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God adopts not the proud and haughty but the meek and submissive. The soul that prostrates itself before a Holy and Just God. The soul that sees itself as justly due condemnation and seeks the mercy and grace of God for forgiveness. A soul that feels the great weight of sin and feels the heat of the fire of eternal condemnation. The soul that is so weak it cannot live that is the soul that Christ in mercy reaches down and lifts up and saves.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Go back and reread it. He said at least some convert that way. Ummm, no they don't. Also, acknowledging God exists is non-sequitor. Those who have not heard the gospel never had a bible in their hand, never had someone witness to them, does not wake up one day, look at the sky and think, "God sent His Son to live a sinless life on my behalf, died in my stead, arose three days later, ascended to the Father, and is coming again." That's the gospel per 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that Ben and Roger mock by saying some can be converted without it. That's mysticism.
Also, the Primitive Baptists, who hold to the TULIP, believe ppl are not saved by the gospel. They say the gospel gives light to the Christ, who saves them. I have a dead friend who is an Old Regular Baptist that is of the Primitive Baptist faith and order, and he, and many others, stated that ppl are saved without the gospel. That's rubbish.
Also, the Primitive Baptists, who hold to the TULIP, believe ppl are not saved by the gospel. They say the gospel gives light to the Christ, who saves them. I have a dead friend who is an Old Regular Baptist that is of the Primitive Baptist faith and order, and he, and many others, stated that ppl are saved without the gospel. That's rubbish.
I never said I read a book about a gospel-less salvation. But when we show you many died w/o hearing it, just like Old Faithful, you guys chime in with Romans 1. Yet, natural revelation does not reveal the cross of the God's Christ. It does not tell them the gospel. If ppl, who never heard the gospel, are saved by what they see, then it's a gospel-less salvation. Something that you and Ben adhere to...a gospel-less salvation.
This merely indicates that man has a choice to make and makes it. It says nothing about how free his will is. In fact the impression given is that ALL reject. Man's 'choice' is based on his peers opinions. It is anything but free choice
No, biased choice,
And lost his free will
And as with you their 'choice' is restricted by their environment, upbringing, and personal inclinations. They were in no position to exercise a mythical free will.
The will of sinful man is bound by sin and enmity against God. He is far from 'free'.
I never said a man could be saved apart from the gospel of Christ. Romans one teaches that men are without excuse before God because all of creation testifies of Gods existence. If there is a God them man is obliged to seek Him. This is evidenced in the historical fact that men create gods if they lack knowledge of God who is God. The gospel has at one time or another encompassed the entire world. There is no excuse for men not to know of God who is God.
It is not mystic to say that God has revealed Himself to all men either through the bible or through creation. It is in fact citing what the bible teaches.
I do understand how easy it is to become over defensive. I may even have been guilty of the same myself, maybe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It is not mystic to say that God has revealed Himself to all men either through the bible or through creation. It is in fact citing what the bible teaches.
I do understand how easy it is to become over defensive. I may even have been guilty of the same myself, maybe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm glad to hear that you are not accusing Ben of not being saved.
God does use His creation as a witness to all the world that He who He says He is. Is that the first step to God revealing Himself to men lost in sin? I see no reason to doubt but yes they must have the whole gospel reveled to them to bring them to a true and saving knowledge of Christ. The Holy Spirit ministers the word of God in men's hearts. The wielding of the sword of Gods word in a man's heart requires divine guidance far above my ability.
I trust that God is able to save those who will be saved. They do not need to be in any church for God to reach them.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God does use His creation as a witness to all the world that He who He says He is. Is that the first step to God revealing Himself to men lost in sin? I see no reason to doubt but yes they must have the whole gospel reveled to them to bring them to a true and saving knowledge of Christ. The Holy Spirit ministers the word of God in men's hearts. The wielding of the sword of Gods word in a man's heart requires divine guidance far above my ability.
I trust that God is able to save those who will be saved. They do not need to be in any church for God to reach them.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
"at least some convert that way" . . . I don't claim to know EXACTLY what Ben meant by that phrase but from his other post I do know that he believes people have to come to Christ . . . that there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved . . . It is not right to pick out just that phrase and say that he is saying there is "another gospel". His complete sentence was - "At least, some people convert this way, at the very least acknowledging that God exists. It may be time before they come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, however." Convert does not mean repent - a person who has been persuaded to change their religious faith or other beliefs . . . So, IOW, he is saying that through the glory of His creation, intelligent design, through observation, some will, at least, acknowledge God exists . . . THEN come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Of course, Ben can speak for himself.
Of course, Ben can speak for himself.
D
Do you serve a big shovel and some waist-high waders with your thick manure?
It's really bad when you say something off the wall, and then turn around and teach against it as if the person who told you why it was off the wall was the one stupid enough to say it in the first place.
Then I will pray for God's mercy on you. (As in your meekness and humility rivals Donald Trump's.)
It's really bad when you say something off the wall, and then turn around and teach against it as if the person who told you why it was off the wall was the one stupid enough to say it in the first place.
Then I will pray for God's mercy on you. (As in your meekness and humility rivals Donald Trump's.)