KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLE
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"The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four books, Paralipomenon [i.e. Chronicles] two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books, Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book, likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus [i.e. Sirach] one book.
Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books."
Council of Rome, 382 AD
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"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two Books of the Maccabees."
Synod of Carthage, 397 AD
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If we want to rely on man and synods and church´ oficial documents, we should accept wider canon than that of protestants but narrower than that of orthodox.
If we want to rely on what was used in church, our canon would be even wider, similar to that of orthodox and Septuagint.
Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book, with Ginoth, that is, with his Lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book. Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book, Esdras two books [i.e. Ezra & Nehemiah], Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two books."
Council of Rome, 382 AD
--------------
"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two Books of the Maccabees."
Synod of Carthage, 397 AD
========
If we want to rely on man and synods and church´ oficial documents, we should accept wider canon than that of protestants but narrower than that of orthodox.
If we want to rely on what was used in church, our canon would be even wider, similar to that of orthodox and Septuagint.
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For clarity...
The Jewish Bible has the same content as our OT, but has the following arrangement hence the different number of books:
Genesis through Ruth are the same as ours (8)
Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are one book each rather than two (3)
Ezra-Nehemiah are one book rather than two (1)
Esther through Daniel are the same as ours (11)
The 12 minor prophets are in one book rather than 12 (1)
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches have additional books. The Wikipedia page has a clear diagram showing the differences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
The Jewish Bible has the same content as our OT, but has the following arrangement hence the different number of books:
Genesis through Ruth are the same as ours (8)
Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles are one book each rather than two (3)
Ezra-Nehemiah are one book rather than two (1)
Esther through Daniel are the same as ours (11)
The 12 minor prophets are in one book rather than 12 (1)
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches have additional books. The Wikipedia page has a clear diagram showing the differences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
Its needed to note that reformers had these "additional" books too and considered them inspired.
Protestants removed them from Bibles in 19th century.
So, if somebody wants to be protestant and to consider these books inspired, there is nothing contradictory about that. He will just not be a "modern" protestant, but more historical.
Protestants removed them from Bibles in 19th century.
So, if somebody wants to be protestant and to consider these books inspired, there is nothing contradictory about that. He will just not be a "modern" protestant, but more historical.
Hey Trofimus
Just a idea . The subject of how we got the Bible canon should be in its own thread .
Dont you think ? Many here will not look or come to a King James thread .
The subject you brought up is worth discussion . I think you might have a wider audience for discussion
in a separate thread .
Blessings
Bill
Just a idea . The subject of how we got the Bible canon should be in its own thread .
Dont you think ? Many here will not look or come to a King James thread .
The subject you brought up is worth discussion . I think you might have a wider audience for discussion
in a separate thread .
Blessings
Bill
Now you are FLATLY CONTRADICTING CHRIST AND THE BIBLE. The Lord Jesus Christ clearly defined the Hebrew canon in Luke 24. Furthermore, throughout His earthly ministry He made references to various passages in the Tanakh and His hearers had no difficulty in remembering where those passages originated.
This is totally absurd. Every Jew knew exactly which books were in those three major divisions.
Christ also lived in the first century, and the canon had already been establish 400 YEARS BEFORE. Philo and Josephus were both contemporaries of Christ, and they referred to the same Hebrew canon already established.
The Catholic and Orthodox churches may have adopted the Septuagint and the Vulgate, but that is irrelevant.
This is totally absurd. Every Jew knew exactly which books were in those three major divisions.
Christ also lived in the first century, and the canon had already been establish 400 YEARS BEFORE. Philo and Josephus were both contemporaries of Christ, and they referred to the same Hebrew canon already established.
The Catholic and Orthodox churches may have adopted the Septuagint and the Vulgate, but that is irrelevant.
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In the New testament, books like Enoch or Assumption of Moses are quoted.
Some books of the OT are not quoted in the New one at all, for example Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Salomon, Judges...
So, do you really want to base your canon on quotations?
I do not know how you want to prove what "every Jew knew". But in every case, they did not have one established canon in the time of Christ.
For example Sadducees believed that only 5 books of Moses are divinely inspired. Thats why they did not believe in resurrection (which is clearly mentioned in other books).
Why exactly is Philo or Josephus relevant, but christian church and her canon for thousand years is irrelevant?
Not making sense to me.
Some books of the OT are not quoted in the New one at all, for example Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Salomon, Judges...
So, do you really want to base your canon on quotations?
I do not know how you want to prove what "every Jew knew". But in every case, they did not have one established canon in the time of Christ.
For example Sadducees believed that only 5 books of Moses are divinely inspired. Thats why they did not believe in resurrection (which is clearly mentioned in other books).
Why exactly is Philo or Josephus relevant, but christian church and her canon for thousand years is irrelevant?
Not making sense to me.
Luke 24 (NIV) I make no apologies for using the NIV
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
LUKE 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and hisfeet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the [1] law of Moses, and in [2] the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. [THE THREE MAJOR DIVISIONS OF THE TANAKH]
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
So here is God the Word -- God the Son -- showing His apostles that everything concerning Himself was revealed throughout the Old Testament. Now our Old Testament is simply an expanded presentation of the Hebrew Tanakh. So here is what Christ was referring to:
THE LAW -- TORAH (5 books)
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
THE PROPHETS -- NEVIIM (or Nebiim)(8 books)
Joshua
Judges
Samuel (1 book)
Kings (1 book)
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Twelve (1 book) -- Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
THE PSALMS (THE WRITINGS) -- KETUVIM (or Kethubim) (11 books)
(A) POETIC BOOKS
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
(B) MEGILLOTH (THE FIVE SCROLLS)
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
(C) OTHER BOOKS
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah (1 book)
Chronicles (1 book)
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and hisfeet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the [1] law of Moses, and in [2] the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. [THE THREE MAJOR DIVISIONS OF THE TANAKH]
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
So here is God the Word -- God the Son -- showing His apostles that everything concerning Himself was revealed throughout the Old Testament. Now our Old Testament is simply an expanded presentation of the Hebrew Tanakh. So here is what Christ was referring to:
THE LAW -- TORAH (5 books)
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
THE PROPHETS -- NEVIIM (or Nebiim)(8 books)
Joshua
Judges
Samuel (1 book)
Kings (1 book)
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Twelve (1 book) -- Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi
THE PSALMS (THE WRITINGS) -- KETUVIM (or Kethubim) (11 books)
(A) POETIC BOOKS
Psalms
Proverbs
Job
(B) MEGILLOTH (THE FIVE SCROLLS)
Song of Songs
Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
(C) OTHER BOOKS
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah (1 book)
Chronicles (1 book)
That's great, now let's have the Bible section in something more readable.
Luke 24 (ESV)
25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance for[c] the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
Luke 24 (ESV)
25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance for[c] the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
I have to disagree Note the Belgic confession 1561 article 6 has only the 66 books of the Bible as scripture. There is some book order differences Calvin did approve of the confession in one of his letters letters he said he and his brothers in Geneva wholeheartedly agreed.
We believe that the Holy Scriptures are contained in two books, namely, the Old and New Testament, which are canonical, against which nothing can be alleged. These are thus named in the Church of God. The books of the Old Testament are, the five books of Moses, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; the books of Joshua, Ruth, Judges, the two books of Samuel, the two of the Kings, two books of the Chronicles, commonly called Paralipomenon, the first of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, the Psalms of David, the three books of Solomon, namely, the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; the four great prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel; and the twelve lesser prophets, namely, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
Those of the New Testament are the four evangelists, namely: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul, namely: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, one to Titus, one to Philemon, and one to the Hebrews; the seven epistles of the other apostles, namely, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; and the Revelation of the apostle John.
Also note Calvin in his response to Rome in his publication Acts of the counsel of Trent with the antidote. Says that the apocryphal were ecclesiastical. Suitable for reading but not for doctrine by not being inspired.
So the reformers did have issues with the apocrypha,and had separated them early on and not in the 19th century . There are other things that can be used as examples from other reformers and well before the reformation,but I don’t have them in my hand at the moment. I will post that later.
Blessings
Bill
We believe that the Holy Scriptures are contained in two books, namely, the Old and New Testament, which are canonical, against which nothing can be alleged. These are thus named in the Church of God. The books of the Old Testament are, the five books of Moses, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; the books of Joshua, Ruth, Judges, the two books of Samuel, the two of the Kings, two books of the Chronicles, commonly called Paralipomenon, the first of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, the Psalms of David, the three books of Solomon, namely, the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; the four great prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel; and the twelve lesser prophets, namely, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
Those of the New Testament are the four evangelists, namely: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen epistles of the apostle Paul, namely: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, one to Titus, one to Philemon, and one to the Hebrews; the seven epistles of the other apostles, namely, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; and the Revelation of the apostle John.
Also note Calvin in his response to Rome in his publication Acts of the counsel of Trent with the antidote. Says that the apocryphal were ecclesiastical. Suitable for reading but not for doctrine by not being inspired.
So the reformers did have issues with the apocrypha,and had separated them early on and not in the 19th century . There are other things that can be used as examples from other reformers and well before the reformation,but I don’t have them in my hand at the moment. I will post that later.
Blessings
Bill
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