And warfare IS fighting. We just don't fight with carnal weapons of guns and knives. Tearing down strongholds is war. In the temporal, a stronghold is to protect from invading armies. In the spiritual, its the same - to protect from invading armies.
Healing in the Atonement?
- Thread starter stonesoffire
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And warfare IS fighting. We just don't fight with carnal weapons of guns and knives. Tearing down strongholds is war. In the temporal, a stronghold is to protect from invading armies. In the spiritual, its the same - to protect from invading armies.
You are in princip right, God wants that we as his children live in unit and in love to one another.
And we are very good in creating own rules, how something should be. Otherwise we had so not so much denominations and teachings. In my opinon no denomination which we have is 100% right. I think you statet this too.
But if I speak for me, if the teachings we have fit with the scripture I can accept it. But there are some teachings which I cant accept, because the scripture dont taught it.
And it seperates believers.
The most seperating doctrines I found in the pentecostal and charismatic movements. As non charismatic/ pentecostal christian i am not a fuĺl/ right christian in their eyes. Because I have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit and I have not the gift to speak in tongues.
Healing in the atonement is an doctrine which comes out of this movement and it shows me that I cant trust people who teaches it. Because it is not truth.
Finally of course you can believe that. Our father in heaven is not depent from our teachings. But i see, as I said befosee this teaching promisses something God has not prommised. And this will lead believers in pressure of self responsible for their situation, instead to trust that the Lord is with him, also in His sickness and despair.
I disagree. Getting dunked in water has nothing to do with being saved. What saves us is God's grace, through our faith.Getting dipped in a pool, lake or baptismal font, does NOT save us. WE ARE HIS the very moment we believe. Not getting baptized doesn't change that..
This is why I capitalized Baptism. I'm not talking about a baptism a man performs with water. And neither was Joannie. She included in her list of things that it should be fine to have different views on, "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."
She includes it in her list of things that she thinks aren't salvational issues, but it most certainly IS salvational and a basic point of our faith.
Listened to a bit more of Hagin and yes, thankfully, after 40 minutes or so he stops talking about and commending himself.
He says the man who asked for healing of one far away (the nobleman's son) and then left and met servants who said his son was healed and he asked what hour it was he got better- this man says it wasn't an instantaneous healing but that only his fever left him "and then he began his convalescence." I don't agree that it wasn't instantaneous, but THIS is not something I would strenuously oppose. I think he's making it up, but not so crucial to me.
He says the man who asked for healing of one far away (the nobleman's son) and then left and met servants who said his son was healed and he asked what hour it was he got better- this man says it wasn't an instantaneous healing but that only his fever left him "and then he began his convalescence." I don't agree that it wasn't instantaneous, but THIS is not something I would strenuously oppose. I think he's making it up, but not so crucial to me.
You do have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or you do not belong to Him. Baptism of the Spirit IS the new birth.
Previous to this, he goes into God saying saying to him to come up to heaven and have a talk with Him in which God tells Him He is giving Him a special anointing to heal by laying hands on the sick and he also says it took him 6 months to get a woman healed. I am assuming this has to do with why he thinks Jesus didn't heal a man instantaneously, but that's just my guess.
Then why did Paul ask the believers at Ephesus "have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" (Acts 19:2) If the baptism of the Spirit is the new birth he should have said "I'm glad you all have the Holy Ghost because you're believers". After Jesus' resurrection He appeared to His disciples and breathed on them and said "receive the Holy Spirit". (John 20:22) That's when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that all believers have, but they didn't receive the baptism for empowerment (Acts 1:8) for seven more weeks on the Day of Pentecost. It's a subsequent experience to the new birth.You do have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or you do not belong to Him. Baptism of the Spirit IS the new birth.
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Continuing with the video, he goes on and on in a rambling way about things Jesus told him in his vision, where he was told "come up here", and he says people have asked him, do you have bible verses to prove that's true and he just says: no, do you haves verses to prove it ISNT true, because he " doesn't have time to talk to stupid people."
It is ridiculous. The exact opposite should be taught. We should search the scriptures TO find out if what were being taught is true. Yet he calls those who ask for scriptures "stupid people."
It is ridiculous. The exact opposite should be taught. We should search the scriptures TO find out if what were being taught is true. Yet he calls those who ask for scriptures "stupid people."
Paul has also said if you do not have the Spirit of Christ then you do not belong to Him.
Water baptism is a cerimoinal law governed by ceremonies as shadow like the killing of animals not a moral law. It points to the unseen according to the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18. The temporal seen (water) gives the eternal spiritual unseen understanding as it does work in us to both will and perform His good pleasure.
Asking if a person has received the Holy Spirit is like saying did the person mix faith in what they did hear or see in order to receive the rest of the Spirit of Christ ( Hebrew 4) or like the those mentioned in Hebrews 6 that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come and walked away without the Holy Spirit.
Now he is commending himself some more. I need more coffee. It is so excruciating to watch. Need another break. Ugh...determined to get through it though.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I am gonna call this person out.
He said he would be happy to discuss any particulars. Yet 3 different people tried to discuss atonement and IS 53, And he has yet even tried to discuss what those 3 people said. Not only once, But all of those posts were reposted and he still has not even responded to any of them. Or tried to discuss them.
So Bluto. When this guy says he is willing to discuss. Do not call his bluff. He is not willing to discuss anything unless you believe like he does.
Oh my gosh, its less than 10 minutes from the end and it will be monumental effort to finish. Now he is talking about children and saying: we gotta buncha idjits running around because they had an idjit daddy and a idjit momma. Prior to this he was commending his momma because even though she was a "maybe christian" she made something of every one of her children because she taught them all they didn't need any help from anyone.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
If they say baptism is required for salvation (water) then yes they are heretics, they preach a different gospel. If they say it is the result of a saving faith and wanting to do what God asked them to do after they are saved.. then now. How one baptised is not an issue.
I have been told since i do nto speak in tongues i am nto saved, is that not heresy?
Paul condemned the belief that I am of paul. I am of peter. I am of Apollo’s. I am of Jesus. Paul called out people who were teaching tyhe ressurection had already taken place. Paul called out people for saying one day is a holy day and should be followed above all others. He called out people for saying we should only eat meat which was clean, and called out others who ate any kind of meat in front of people who thought that meat was unclean. Paul called people out fort many things which had nothign to do with tyhe gospel..
yes, i agree with your statement of faith, Thats why I know your my sister and like Stones, I love you. But some doctrines are just hurtful to the church, and should be called out on. It is my believe WOF is one of those doctrines. It is one of the most damaging teaching taught in the church today (that is not a false gospel) because it has caused many to walk away from God. More than tongues, more that Age of the earth, More than end times prophesy. More than what day is the sabbath day. More than should we or should we not use musical instruments in the church more than should women be aloud to speak. All non essentials. Which may cause some heated arguments, but By themselves are not going to get people to walk away from God. Because they either feel they have been wrong, or they are just not worthy enough (do not have enough faith) If I do not have enough faith God will heal me, (proven by the fact I have not been healed) why should I think I have enough faith God will save me?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Because he did not just ASSUME they wert saved. Do you assume someone is saved when you first meet them?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
No one asked me to watch it again. I've never watched it before so it is my first watching of it. Joannie posted it for stones to watch. Its awful. Just a lot of strutting around and declaring bereans to be stupid for asking for verses, a whole lot of stories of all the people he's healed, saying it doesn't work after the service because the anointing has been lifted, talking about how many days or months each healing took (presumably to give him time to get out of town before they come after him?) I feel nauseous. Literally.
Bring it on lancelot, and be sure to bring your sword! In fact I will be happy to start a thread showing the "misinformation" is on the part of the heretical wof teachers and preachers. You want "particulars," I'll give you plenty of them.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Mar 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
Mar 5:31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
The reason why the people were thronging and pressing on Jesus was to touch Him, and the reason why they wanted to touch Him was because they believed they too would be healed. But as you can see in the situation with the woman with the issue of blood, she was the only one who got healed after touching Jesus. She believed but all the others apparently didn't because Jesus told the woman, "your faith has made you whole".
Also I would like to point out the word "many". Many is NOT all.
And why wasn't Jesus able to heal but a FEW SICK folk? It was because of the people's lack of faith.
Point being, the one praying can have both the faith and anointing to heal, as Jesus did, but if the person in need of healing has doubts, many times, they don't get their healing.
The sick many times need to have faith as well.
That is why I said Jesus didn't have a 100 percent success rate.
Mar 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
Mar 5:31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
The reason why the people were thronging and pressing on Jesus was to touch Him, and the reason why they wanted to touch Him was because they believed they too would be healed. But as you can see in the situation with the woman with the issue of blood, she was the only one who got healed after touching Jesus. She believed but all the others apparently didn't because Jesus told the woman, "your faith has made you whole".
Also I would like to point out the word "many". Many is NOT all.
And why wasn't Jesus able to heal but a FEW SICK folk? It was because of the people's lack of faith.
Point being, the one praying can have both the faith and anointing to heal, as Jesus did, but if the person in need of healing has doubts, many times, they don't get their healing.
The sick many times need to have faith as well.
That is why I said Jesus didn't have a 100 percent success rate.