The Rapture
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Where does it say in the Bible that when Jesus ascended to heaven he was seen as a bright light by the witnesses that saw him ascend? His Transfigured body on the Mt. of Olives was very bright but the Disciples still recognized his BODY as Jesus. That means his Transfigured body had Physical Form in order for them to do this. Does a person in Heaven have the ability to Transfigure their Body from the Physical form to the Metaphysical form and vice-versa? Not beyond the realm of possibilities now is it? Are you insinuating that this body of flesh and blood is in itself sinful? Then you have pronounced a Judgement against Jesus himself in that he walked around for 30 some odd years in a PHYSICAL BODY. And YET he KNEW NO SIN. So by all accounts of God's Law if Jesus had not Died on the Cross for you and me, he could not see Physical Death because he Had NO SIN and thereby would not Age or Die of Natural Causes because he did not Break God's law and was not born under the curse of Sin. That tells me that, and this is for speculation purposes only, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as God's Messiah that Jesus would have brought the Kingdom of God here then and there. Not only that, he would not have died and still existed to this day in his pre-death body. That was the Choice given to the Jews back then and thanks to God's Glory he knew they would reject his son Jesus and thereby Gentiles are allowed a chance to enter into Heaven too!
I am aware of the different views, but only one view is correct. And I am not entirely amil. I believe and understand that Christ already returned in 70 AD as He clearly taught He would. His presence returned to destroy Jerusalem. He freed the captives in Hades, He resurrected the saints and He redeemed the living believers altering their souls so that they would not face the second death.
What gives you the impression that spiritual beings cannot eat? Have you read Heb 13:2? They are from the heavenly dimension not bound by our physical laws. They can enter and leave our dimension. While in our dimension, they appear as us, which is what Heb 13 teaches.
Gen 6:4 implies that angels can actual breed with humans, or did back then. We know so little about the life to come.
Gen 6:4 implies that angels can actual breed with humans, or did back then. We know so little about the life to come.
Revelation isn't talking about a future siege. It talks a lot about the 70 AD siege and war, such as the trumpets and bowls.
If you are referring to Rev 20 and the fire coming down, what makes you think that happens to the current Jerusalem we see today? Do you think there are a lot of saints in Jerusalem? You are correct, the passage doesn't involve Titus either.
If you are referring to Rev 20 and the fire coming down, what makes you think that happens to the current Jerusalem we see today? Do you think there are a lot of saints in Jerusalem? You are correct, the passage doesn't involve Titus either.
Israel today is just another country. However, I do believe God still loves them even though He broke the staff Beauty. I also believe God is protecting Israel from the sea of Muslims they live in wanting Israel to accept His Son and their savior. But the actual covenant with Israel from the OT is gone, the Law has passed at the end of the age.
The true Israel today is all believers. We are all now God's chosen. This is the clear teaching in the NT. We have been grafted in with those Jews who believe(d) in the Messiah, Christ Jesus. What isn't real is talk of some future temple made by man whereby Christ will reign some day. This idea has got to stop because not only is it wrong, it is 100% un-Biblical and the opposite of what Christ taught.
The true Israel today is all believers. We are all now God's chosen. This is the clear teaching in the NT. We have been grafted in with those Jews who believe(d) in the Messiah, Christ Jesus. What isn't real is talk of some future temple made by man whereby Christ will reign some day. This idea has got to stop because not only is it wrong, it is 100% un-Biblical and the opposite of what Christ taught.
Israel in the flesh are amidst the land God gave them, and they are among the people of the land they refused to kill when God told them to. and also those they failed to defeat, because God was no longer with them in battle. The Israel nation today, known as Israel are those who could not trace back to their tribes.. Only a few knew their tribes.
Sister Roadkill
What a name by the way. What's up with that, LOL? Any way, great questions and I have great answers for you.
Read the text very closely.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Notice Christ comes in like manner as He went into heaven, not as He left earth. You see when Christ left our physical dimension and returned to the spiritual realm, He transformed back to His spiritual self, the brightest of all "angels." When viewed on earth by mortals, Christ would be visible only as an extremely bright light as Saul/Paul saw. Now read Rev 18:1:
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with His glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...
Christ lit up the entire night sky in 70 AD when Babylon (AKA Jerusalem of the 1st century) fell. This event was recorded in history by Josephus. This is how every eye saw him and apparently every knee bowed, including those who pierced Him, which of course were the Romans of the first century at the behest of the evil Jewish religious leaders, all of whom were killed within a week of the temple being destroyed.
to be continued. Have to run.
What a name by the way. What's up with that, LOL? Any way, great questions and I have great answers for you.
Read the text very closely.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Notice Christ comes in like manner as He went into heaven, not as He left earth. You see when Christ left our physical dimension and returned to the spiritual realm, He transformed back to His spiritual self, the brightest of all "angels." When viewed on earth by mortals, Christ would be visible only as an extremely bright light as Saul/Paul saw. Now read Rev 18:1:
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with His glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...
Christ lit up the entire night sky in 70 AD when Babylon (AKA Jerusalem of the 1st century) fell. This event was recorded in history by Josephus. This is how every eye saw him and apparently every knee bowed, including those who pierced Him, which of course were the Romans of the first century at the behest of the evil Jewish religious leaders, all of whom were killed within a week of the temple being destroyed.
to be continued. Have to run.
The problem is that, your teaching of the gathering of the church taking place at the second coming, puts the living church through the entire wrath of God and that's the problem. For we have scripture which states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that he would keep us out of that time of wrath. Therefore, this is not my opinion, but is backed up by scripture. Scripture, not opinion (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 Rom.5:9, Rev.3:10)
We also have Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 revealing that the bride/church will be following the Lord out of heaven when he returns to end the age riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she will have received while at the wedding of the Lamb. By having the church gathered at the same time when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, you are ignoring these other scriptures. It comes down to incomplete exegesis on your part. You are coming to your conclusion without including all of the related information. Your calling it "my opinion" is just a weak attempt to discredit what I am claiming.
We also have Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 revealing that the bride/church will be following the Lord out of heaven when he returns to end the age riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she will have received while at the wedding of the Lamb. By having the church gathered at the same time when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, you are ignoring these other scriptures. It comes down to incomplete exegesis on your part. You are coming to your conclusion without including all of the related information. Your calling it "my opinion" is just a weak attempt to discredit what I am claiming.
Again, you are adding things to what I said, while at the same time totally ignoring what the scriptures I posted say.
Your not addressing the scriptures I posted.
If 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 does not refer to the coming of the Lord and the rapture, then what scripture does?
Here they are again: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Content and context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
...that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Paul is plainly referring to the coming of the Lord.
Paul then explains the order of those who are to be caught up at the coming of the Lord.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
Here is the order of those who will be caught up to be with the Lord at His coming.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
At the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them.
Ok, please address the actual words here and what Paul is teaching and explain what it is you disagree with about the resurrection and rapture occurring at the coming of the Lord.
JPT
This is the will of my Father who sent me,that of all He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise up at the last day
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent me,that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have everlasting life and I will raise Him up at the last day.
John 6: 40
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day
John 6:44
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day
John 6 :54
Whoever reads this put yourself in the place of a new believer who hasnt been instructed on any of the various eschatological positions argued over on this site but understands plain English. How would you read it? The way I read it is that there is a final last day when Christ returns and resurrects all those who belong to him. Not some, not certain groups but everyone who believes in him and also judges those who don't.
Those who believe in a rapture followed by a seven year tribulation need to look at these verses and explain how
a resurrection to eternal life can happen followed by a seven year tribulation and still be called the last day.
Check a dictionary and see the definition of last. Also read what Christ says about himself in Revelation where he says I am the Alpha and Omega the first and the last Do you believe that when he says last he literally means last or do you think he was lying? I am not an expert in Greek but I understand that the Greek word for last is eschatos. It is used both in John 6 and in Revelation to convey the same meaning.
To me those who believe that the last day really means something different from the plain text are like someone who is trying to convince others that This month doesn't end on the 31st day but on some day beyond that. They keep presenting a Calender with an extended March included and expect everyone to agree to it.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent me,that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have everlasting life and I will raise Him up at the last day.
John 6: 40
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day
John 6:44
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day
John 6 :54
Whoever reads this put yourself in the place of a new believer who hasnt been instructed on any of the various eschatological positions argued over on this site but understands plain English. How would you read it? The way I read it is that there is a final last day when Christ returns and resurrects all those who belong to him. Not some, not certain groups but everyone who believes in him and also judges those who don't.
Those who believe in a rapture followed by a seven year tribulation need to look at these verses and explain how
a resurrection to eternal life can happen followed by a seven year tribulation and still be called the last day.
Check a dictionary and see the definition of last. Also read what Christ says about himself in Revelation where he says I am the Alpha and Omega the first and the last Do you believe that when he says last he literally means last or do you think he was lying? I am not an expert in Greek but I understand that the Greek word for last is eschatos. It is used both in John 6 and in Revelation to convey the same meaning.
To me those who believe that the last day really means something different from the plain text are like someone who is trying to convince others that This month doesn't end on the 31st day but on some day beyond that. They keep presenting a Calender with an extended March included and expect everyone to agree to it.
The fact that Israel is once again a nation is meaningless. There is no scripture that says Israel will forever be desolate or that the nation will return or not. Luke's account in Lk 21:24 tells of a scattering of the people into all the nations. This happened in 70 AD, a mere 40 years after Jesus foretold it. Just because Jesus was silent concerning the return of the people ~ 1,900 years later doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The prophesy of the Olivet Discourse, all three versions of it, were perfectly and completely fulfilled in the first century, in THAT generation, as He said.
As for your "winter" argument, what are you even talking about? The comment about "praying that your flight not be in the winter" was not addressed to the wicked Jews about to face the wrath, rather it was aimed at the roughly 144,000 Christians on Mt. Zion who had gathered there for the Feast of Pentecost (which was one of three Jewish festivals that Christian Jews still returned to Jerusalem to celebrate). The warning was for them to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Jerusalem was first surrounded by Cestius Gallus then later, by Vespasian then he returned to Rome to become emperor after the death of Nero and the "year of the three Caesars" which was Rome's civil war in late 69. Vespasian then order Titus to Jerusalem and he arrived in Feb/Mar of 70 AD, which would have been winter. During these breaks in the sieges, Christians fled over the mountains to Pella, which would be in northern Jordan. This is all in the historical record as recorded by many early Christian writers as below.
Pseudo-Clementines (2/3rd century)
"Subsequently also an evident proof of this great mystery is supplied in the fact, that every one who, believing in this Prophet who had been foretold by Moses, is baptized in His name, shall be kept unhurt from the destruction of war which impends over the unbelieving nation, and the place itself; but that those who do not believe shall be made exiles from their place and kingdom, that even against their will they may understand and obey the will of God." (Recognitions 1:39:3)
Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)
"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
"After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel andwhich is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." (Panarion 30:2)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).
"Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).
"For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)... "[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea ... and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa" (Haer 30:18).
Epiphanius (375)
"The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began." (Panarion 29:7:7-8)
"Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed.." (Panarion 30:2:7)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)
Eutychius of Alexandria (10th C)
"Qistus, governor of Jerusalem, died and the city was without any authority or sovereign to govern it. The Jews then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death (14). Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places (15). Informed of this fact, Nero Caesar sent word to the commander stationed in the East, named Vespasian, to rally his troops and go to Judea with orders to kill all the inhabitants, sparing none, and to destroy the houses." The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9:
Even more recent Bible scholars agree. Long before that whacked out Darby and his Plymouth Brethren corrupted the church, none of this nonsense you believe was taught. See the below:
Henry Alford"I own that, considering the analogies and the language used, I am much more disposed to interpret the persecution of the woman by the dragon of the various persecutions of the Jews which followed the ascension, and her flight into the wilderness of the gradual withdrawl of the church and her agency from Jerusalem and Judea, finally consummated by the flight to the mountains on the approaching siege, commanded by our Lord Himself." (Greek Test. Notes on Revelation 12:14)
Albert Barnes (1832)
"It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they dwelt when the city was destroyed." (in loc.)
David Brown (1864)
"That it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem is equally certain; for, when he reports our Lord's prophecy of that awful event, on coming to the warning about "the abomination of desolation" which they should "see standing in the holy place," he interposes (contrary to his invariable practice, which is to relate without remark) a call to his reader to read intelligently -- "Whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matt. xxiv. 15) -- a call to attend to the divine signal for flight, which could be intended only for those who lived before the event." (Hug, page 316)" (Gospel According to Matthew, intro)
"Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains--The ecclesiastical historian, EUSEBIUS, early in the fourth century, tells us that the Christians fled to Pella, at the northern extremity of Perea, being "prophetically directed"--perhaps by some prophetic intimation more explicit than this, which would be their chart--and that thus they escaped the predicted calamities by which the nation was overwhelmed. "
Geneva Bible Notes
"Revelation 12:14 {18} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her {c} place, where she is nourished for a {19} time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(18) That is, being strengthened with divine power: and taught by oracle, she fled swiftly from the assault of the devil, and from the common destruction of Jerusalem and went into a solitary city beyond Jordan called Pella as Eusebius tells in the first chapter of the third book of his ecclesiastical history: where God had commanded her by revelation.
(c) Into the place God had prepared for her.
(19) That is, for three and a half years: so the same speech is taken in see Geneva (q) "Da 7:25". This space of time is reckoned in manner from that last and most grievous rebellion of the Jews, to the destruction of the city and temple,for their defection or falling away, began in the twelfth year of Nero, before the beginning of which many signs and predictions were shown from heaven, as Josephus wrote, lib.7, chap.12, and Hegesippus lib.5, chap.44, among which this is very memorable. In the feast of Pentecost not only a great sound and noise was heard in the Temple, but also a voice was heard by many out of the Sanctuary which cried out to all, Let us depart from here. Now three and a half years after this defection by the Jews began, and those wonders happened, the city was taken by force, the temple overthrown, and the place forsaken by God: and the length of time John noted in this place. "
John Gill (1809)
"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:16).
George Peter Holford
"And it is with reason supposed, that on this occasion many of the Christians, or converted Jews, who dwelt there, recollecting the warnings or their divine Master, retired to Pella, a place beyond Jordan, situated in a mountainous country, whither (according to Eusebius, who resided near the spot) they came from Jerusalem, and settled, before the war (under Vespasian) began. Other providential opportunities for escaping afterwards occured, of which, it is probable, those who were now left behind availed themselves ; for it is a striking act, and such as cannot be contemplated by the pious mind without sentiments of devout admiration, that history does not record that even one CHRISTIAN perished in the siege of Jerusalem." (The Destruction of Jerusalem)
I really encourage everyone to study history as well as the Gospel and get things right. Do not be led astray by the many false doctrines that have crept into the Church these past 180 years or so.
As for your "winter" argument, what are you even talking about? The comment about "praying that your flight not be in the winter" was not addressed to the wicked Jews about to face the wrath, rather it was aimed at the roughly 144,000 Christians on Mt. Zion who had gathered there for the Feast of Pentecost (which was one of three Jewish festivals that Christian Jews still returned to Jerusalem to celebrate). The warning was for them to flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Jerusalem was first surrounded by Cestius Gallus then later, by Vespasian then he returned to Rome to become emperor after the death of Nero and the "year of the three Caesars" which was Rome's civil war in late 69. Vespasian then order Titus to Jerusalem and he arrived in Feb/Mar of 70 AD, which would have been winter. During these breaks in the sieges, Christians fled over the mountains to Pella, which would be in northern Jordan. This is all in the historical record as recorded by many early Christian writers as below.
Pseudo-Clementines (2/3rd century)
"Subsequently also an evident proof of this great mystery is supplied in the fact, that every one who, believing in this Prophet who had been foretold by Moses, is baptized in His name, shall be kept unhurt from the destruction of war which impends over the unbelieving nation, and the place itself; but that those who do not believe shall be made exiles from their place and kingdom, that even against their will they may understand and obey the will of God." (Recognitions 1:39:3)
Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)
"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
"After all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel andwhich is situated in the neighborhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." (Panarion 30:2)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).
"Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).
"For when all who believed in Christ had settled down about that time in Peraea, the majority of the emigrants taking up their abode at Pella, a town belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the Gospel, near Batanea and the district to Basanitis, Ebion got his excuse and opportunity. At first their abode was Kochaba, a village in the district of Carnaim, Arnem, and Astaroth, in the region of Basanitis, according to the information we have received. But I have spoken, in other connections and with regard to other heresies, of the locality of Kochaba and Arabia (Haer 30:2)... "[The Ebionites] spring for the most part from Batanea ... and Paneas, as well as from Moabitis and Cochaba in Basanitis on the other side of Adraa" (Haer 30:18).
Epiphanius (375)
"The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began." (Panarion 29:7:7-8)
"Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed.." (Panarion 30:2:7)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)
Eutychius of Alexandria (10th C)
"Qistus, governor of Jerusalem, died and the city was without any authority or sovereign to govern it. The Jews then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death (14). Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places (15). Informed of this fact, Nero Caesar sent word to the commander stationed in the East, named Vespasian, to rally his troops and go to Judea with orders to kill all the inhabitants, sparing none, and to destroy the houses." The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9:
Even more recent Bible scholars agree. Long before that whacked out Darby and his Plymouth Brethren corrupted the church, none of this nonsense you believe was taught. See the below:
Henry Alford"I own that, considering the analogies and the language used, I am much more disposed to interpret the persecution of the woman by the dragon of the various persecutions of the Jews which followed the ascension, and her flight into the wilderness of the gradual withdrawl of the church and her agency from Jerusalem and Judea, finally consummated by the flight to the mountains on the approaching siege, commanded by our Lord Himself." (Greek Test. Notes on Revelation 12:14)
Albert Barnes (1832)
"It is said that there is reason to believe that not one Christian perished in the destruction of that city, God having in various ways secured their escape, so that they fled to Pella, where they dwelt when the city was destroyed." (in loc.)
David Brown (1864)
"That it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem is equally certain; for, when he reports our Lord's prophecy of that awful event, on coming to the warning about "the abomination of desolation" which they should "see standing in the holy place," he interposes (contrary to his invariable practice, which is to relate without remark) a call to his reader to read intelligently -- "Whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matt. xxiv. 15) -- a call to attend to the divine signal for flight, which could be intended only for those who lived before the event." (Hug, page 316)" (Gospel According to Matthew, intro)
"Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains--The ecclesiastical historian, EUSEBIUS, early in the fourth century, tells us that the Christians fled to Pella, at the northern extremity of Perea, being "prophetically directed"--perhaps by some prophetic intimation more explicit than this, which would be their chart--and that thus they escaped the predicted calamities by which the nation was overwhelmed. "
Geneva Bible Notes
"Revelation 12:14 {18} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her {c} place, where she is nourished for a {19} time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
(18) That is, being strengthened with divine power: and taught by oracle, she fled swiftly from the assault of the devil, and from the common destruction of Jerusalem and went into a solitary city beyond Jordan called Pella as Eusebius tells in the first chapter of the third book of his ecclesiastical history: where God had commanded her by revelation.
(c) Into the place God had prepared for her.
(19) That is, for three and a half years: so the same speech is taken in see Geneva (q) "Da 7:25". This space of time is reckoned in manner from that last and most grievous rebellion of the Jews, to the destruction of the city and temple,for their defection or falling away, began in the twelfth year of Nero, before the beginning of which many signs and predictions were shown from heaven, as Josephus wrote, lib.7, chap.12, and Hegesippus lib.5, chap.44, among which this is very memorable. In the feast of Pentecost not only a great sound and noise was heard in the Temple, but also a voice was heard by many out of the Sanctuary which cried out to all, Let us depart from here. Now three and a half years after this defection by the Jews began, and those wonders happened, the city was taken by force, the temple overthrown, and the place forsaken by God: and the length of time John noted in this place. "
John Gill (1809)
"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:16).
George Peter Holford
"And it is with reason supposed, that on this occasion many of the Christians, or converted Jews, who dwelt there, recollecting the warnings or their divine Master, retired to Pella, a place beyond Jordan, situated in a mountainous country, whither (according to Eusebius, who resided near the spot) they came from Jerusalem, and settled, before the war (under Vespasian) began. Other providential opportunities for escaping afterwards occured, of which, it is probable, those who were now left behind availed themselves ; for it is a striking act, and such as cannot be contemplated by the pious mind without sentiments of devout admiration, that history does not record that even one CHRISTIAN perished in the siege of Jerusalem." (The Destruction of Jerusalem)
I really encourage everyone to study history as well as the Gospel and get things right. Do not be led astray by the many false doctrines that have crept into the Church these past 180 years or so.
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Tanakh,
What does the following phase mean to you "The Day of the Lord?" How about this one "I will keep you from the hour of trial."
The day of the Lord is not a day, but a period of time in which God is going to pour out his wrath. Likewise, the "hour of trial" is not an hour in length, but is another designation for "the day of the Lord."
"and I will raise Him up at the last day" is not referring to a specific day but the last times, the last days, end times.
Good day Justpassingthrough,
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I completely agree with what you said above and in fact teach the same thing, i.e. that 1 Thes.4:13-18 is referring to the gathering of the church.
However, what I did say is that the event above i.e. the gathering of the church, is a separate event from when the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Therefore, if you are saying that these two are the same events or that they take place at the same time, then I disagree with you. And the reason for that is because by having the church gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
So, if you're saying that gathering of the church (rapture) is a separate event from when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then we are in agreement. However, if you are claiming that they are the same event or take place at the same time, then we are not in agreement.
Gathering of the church = Takes place prior to God's wrath
Second coming = Takes place after God's wrath
If you are claiming that the gathering of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:30-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, then below is why I disagree:
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him![/quote] - Rom.5:9
"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:9-10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Rev.3:10
The underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God, satisfying it completely and fully on behalf of every believer. All who are in Christ have been credited with his righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through God's wrath. And since God's wrath sits in between now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then all believers must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I completely agree with what you said above and in fact teach the same thing, i.e. that 1 Thes.4:13-18 is referring to the gathering of the church.
However, what I did say is that the event above i.e. the gathering of the church, is a separate event from when the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Therefore, if you are saying that these two are the same events or that they take place at the same time, then I disagree with you. And the reason for that is because by having the church gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
So, if you're saying that gathering of the church (rapture) is a separate event from when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then we are in agreement. However, if you are claiming that they are the same event or take place at the same time, then we are not in agreement.
Gathering of the church = Takes place prior to God's wrath
Second coming = Takes place after God's wrath
If you are claiming that the gathering of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:30-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, then below is why I disagree:
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him![/quote] - Rom.5:9
"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:9-10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Rev.3:10
The underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God, satisfying it completely and fully on behalf of every believer. All who are in Christ have been credited with his righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through God's wrath. And since God's wrath sits in between now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then all believers must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.