Not By Works

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,321
6,690
113
What did Jesus say?

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
Matt 7:24-25

A wise man - hears words, puts them into practice builds their house upon a rock.

Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, said we hear His words, we put them into practice and we have
a firm foundation.

Where did Jesus say, God listens to the words, God puts them into practice,
God builds us on this firm foundation?

Somehow you people are not listening to Jesus, the one you claim is your Lord.
If you are not listening to Him, you are not part of Him. Are you really this deaf and
blind? Does this brain washing and assumption, that God does not believe in you
and your ability to listen, understand and move, that you deny what He is saying?

It appears so. God who made you clean through the cross, empowers you to walk
in His ways. But maybe you are not actually clean and not empowered. Maybe
you are destitute orphans playing in a playground without the master?

If you cannot hear Him, then I understand. The more you write, the more your
lostness and impurity shines through. We know we know the Lord because we obey
His commands and love His people, Amen.

The cross speaks to our hearts and brings us into new life, putting to death the ways
of this world and leading us into the Holy Spirit.

Someone mentioned anger. The free grace group over time have expressed such anger
and frustration, just interacting makes them so annoyed and ballistic, they literally cannot
continue sharing, and have to leave such forums to calm down. Continuous mention of
ignore lists, illustrates this continual anger which they find impossible to come to terms with,
ironic that.
you call us deaf, brainwashed, destitute orphans, and then chastise folks for getting angry and putting folks on ignore. wow.

do you actually read what you post?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
READ IT AGAIN:

John 3:3-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit,he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.


READ VERSE 7, HE DID NOT CHANGE SUBJECT IN MID STREAM.

He is comparing the need to be both born naturally, to the EXTREME need to have your dead human spirit to be born again, into eternal life.

Climbing into a Baptistery, will accomplished two main things.

1. You will automatically become eligible for church membership.

2. You will go into that Baptistery a dry sinner, and you will come out a wet sinner.

Yes we walk in Obedience, but that is not what John 3:5 is talking about. Salvation is the Immersion of the Believer into the Body of Jesus Christ. But it is NOT SALVATION, that happen the MOMENT you truly believed.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body, {including the thief on the cross} --whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

It is spiritual baptism that SAVES, the Immersion into the body of Christ. All Christian Water Baptism is really an after thought of publically identifying with Jesus Christ.

I should have clarified the IT in the Sentence near the end. The IT that I was talking about is Christian Water Baptism. He is the CORRECTED SENTENCE.

But Christian Water Baptism IS NOT SALVATION, that happened the MOMENT we truly believed.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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you call us deaf, brainwashed, destitute orphans, and then chastise folks for getting angry and putting folks on ignore. wow.

do you actually read what you post?
Obviously not....he and about 3 or 4 others have the same opinionated, regurgitated religious response.....the same old working for Pharisee"ical" dogma and Cainology that has been pushed since Cain offered his works and was rejected.....
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”[/FONT]
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
The two births. Flesh versus Spirit.

John 3:3-6:
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Acts 5:32, "“And we are His witnesses to these matters, and so also is the Set-apart Spirit whom Yah has given to those who obey Him.”

1 John 3:24, "And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all are naked and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom is our account.”

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 3:3-6, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: Truly, truly, I say to you: Unless a man is reborn from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of YHWH. Nicodemus said to Him; How can a man be reborn when he is old? Can he enter the womb of his mother the second time, and be born? Yahshua answered: Truly, truly, I say to you: Unless a man is begotten of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of YHWH. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit."

1 Peter 1:3-9, “Blessed be the Strength and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who according to His great compassion has caused us to be born again to a living expectation through the resurrection of יהושע Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you exult, even though for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by manifold trials, in order that the proving of your belief – much more precious than gold that perishes, and proven by fire – might be found to result in praise and respect and esteem at the revelation of יהושע Messiah, whom having not seen, you love; in whom you exult with unspeakable and esteemed joy, yet not seeing, but believing, obtaining the goal of your belief: a deliverance of lives.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 119:103-105, “How sweet to my taste has Your word been, More than honey to my mouth! From Your orders I get understanding; Therefore I have hated every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”[/FONT]
 
Jan 25, 2018
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you call us deaf, brainwashed, destitute orphans, and then chastise folks for getting angry and putting folks on ignore. wow.

do you actually read what you post?
My simple observation here is how this is interpreted.
When Jesus says, learn, listen, put into action, do, these are actions we are meant
to follow as believers in Him and as our Lord.

Lord means one who one respects, listens to, loves, would die for, who one is a servant to.
Now the obvious truth is if one does not listen to, understand or follow His instructions
He is not ones Lord.

Now anger rises for lots of reasons. I am not saying morally where people are when they
get angry, just observing this is a common response, even over obvious issues of following
Jesus. And a sign of not coping is the ignore feature.

Now if people want to say I am chastising them by making this observation, shows how little
they know what the words mean, and the observation I am making.

Ofcourse spiritual divides do exist, and many people believe different groups are full of the
Holy Spirit when clearly they are not.

One member talked about Mormons laying hands on them for healing, as if the Lord is going
to listen to Mormons? So the spiritual realities of the individuals here vary wildly, and the
statements are said without due care or understanding of the spiritual consequences.

But then the blind are in darkness, and lost, so all they know is hurt but not where it is
coming from, and issues in their heart, which they dare not look at.

So dear brothers and sisters in Christ, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord, Amen.
 
Jan 25, 2018
673
10
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What is brainwashing?

It is a condition where an obvious statement of facts, what is going on, what is being
said and done, is changed in such a way that comes to conclusions that simply do not follow.

So if Jesus says, do this, learn, listen, ask, and someone says God only asks us to rest
and let Him work, clearly they are not reading the words, and have invented another
meaning to what Jesus is saying. This is classical brain washing.

Or if Paul says put to death the passions of the world and live to God, this is an active
choice of the will, takes effort and perseverance. But then again someone says again
Paul does not call us to action, they are brainwashed.

If scripture says this promise of reward is true if one has something to the end, or without
faltering, or losing hope, or persevering to the end, someone says a flash in the pan is what
they are meaning, that is brain washing.

Now brain washing works when the emotional load of seeing the truth is greater than staying
in their brain washed view. That is how it works.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Again, you are being quite authoritative about this by writing 'Period'. So again, I am going to say, for your sake I hope you are right. I'm covered because I am teaching people that water baptism is important to their salvation. You OTOH are teaching that it is not important to your salvation, but is an act of obedience, but like all acts of obedience, choose for yourself, totally unnecesary if you don't want to get wet all over, for Jesus has you covered by his death on the cross. Many may decide to not get baptized.

If it turns out that baptism is important to their salvation and you helped them decide not to be baptized, there will have to be someone who will have a hard talk with Jesus. So good luck.
What scares me is the jews thought the work of circumcision is essential for salvation. Paul had to come down hard on them. Calling them fools for trying to begin in the spirit, but perfect it in the flesh (by works) even telling them if they are going to add one aspect. They better add them all.

As for the thought many decide not to get baptised. I have been to many churches. Known many children of God. And I have never heard such a thing. In fact when I see new believers they usually can not wait to get baptised. For the few who really want to, but are afraid due to fear of public speaking. Even they eventually get baptised. So if people are not getting baptised. I would wonder deep and hard why. And wonder deep and hard why they are not following the HS. And i think you get the picture.

What’s worries me is if people are trusting in the work of baptism (A sign for a believer) which I believe is nothing more than modern day circumcision, (A sign for a jew) Then the warning of paul stands. If circumcision was so sinful when added to the gospel. That paul said anyone teaching it should be anathema’d, what makes adding the work of baptism any less dangerous?
Your covered by baptism, I am covered by the blood of the cross. I hope and pray you see the difference.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I would not be so bold as to wipe away the importance of the water baptism. Jesus made many mentions of it while he was here. You seem to be willing to not take him serious. Did you get baptized?
I would not be so bold to add works to the gospel of grace, Jesus mentioned many works and commands that he demanded his followers obey. Not just one. You should stop focusing on one and start focusing on serving others, And stop trying to promote o0ne work as superior to the others. The jews made the same mistake with circumcision. We see where it got them. Take the warning they recieved.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am born again, just like you. However, I believe that baptism is important. Not sure that is so evil.
Your adding it to the gospel and making it a requirment, That is dangerous.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,920
9,669
113
I've said it milennia times before, but here it is again. Getting dipped in water has NOTHING to do with salvation. It is NOT a requirement. I mean, do you get saved every time you dip into a pool, or take a shower or bath? I didn't think so. :rolleyes:

LOL
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,757
4,120
113
63
What did Jesus say?

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
Matt 7:24-25

A wise man - hears words, puts them into practice builds their house upon a rock.

Jesus, our Lord, our Saviour, said we hear His words, we put them into practice and we have
a firm foundation.

Where did Jesus say, God listens to the words, God puts them into practice,
God builds us on this firm foundation?

Somehow you people are not listening to Jesus, the one you claim is your Lord.
If you are not listening to Him, you are not part of Him. Are you really this deaf and
blind? Does this brain washing and assumption, that God does not believe in you
and your ability to listen, understand and move, that you deny what He is saying?

It appears so. God who made you clean through the cross, empowers you to walk
in His ways. But maybe you are not actually clean and not empowered. Maybe
you are destitute orphans playing in a playground without the master?

If you cannot hear Him, then I understand. The more you write, the more your
lostness and impurity shines through. We know we know the Lord because we obey
His commands and love His people, Amen.

The cross speaks to our hearts and brings us into new life, putting to death the ways
of this world and leading us into the Holy Spirit.

Someone mentioned anger. The free grace group over time have expressed such anger
and frustration, just interacting makes them so annoyed and ballistic, they literally cannot
continue sharing, and have to leave such forums to calm down. Continuous mention of
ignore lists, illustrates this continual anger which they find impossible to come to terms with,
ironic that.
Do you realize that you have a critical spirit in you...People who have this spirit tend to make very good points , but fail to stand up to them themselves...Here is a good suggestion for you , give your critical spirit that is inside of you to Jesus , and Jesus will cover you with His Spirit , it will take time , but O so worth it...You criticize people in here , comparing us to children of the devil with your finger pointing , i have sat back and observed you doing this by coating it all in honey , but underneath the stench is like rottenness...

You come across as if you are so self righteous while pointing your finger at others , we are told to build and edify each other up , not tear down those who are brothers and sisters in Christ...You accuse us that we do not listen to our LORD Jesus Christ our Savior , would it make you feel even better if we ALL listened to you...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
Obviously not....he and about 3 or 4 others have the same opinionated, regurgitated religious response.....the same old working for Pharisee"ical" dogma and Cainology that has been pushed since Cain offered his works and was rejected.....
When will these people learn?

 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and when Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.
Acts 19:5-6

Look at the verses. Baptism of John was for repentance, baptism of Jesus was baptism
into His death and resurrection. After they had water baptism, Paul laid hands on them
and they received the Holy Spirit.

They did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit in this text, but the physical baptism
of christians into the faith in Jesus. It is that simple.

L...,

What point are you making here...for clarity?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”


And if anyone mis-interprets the WORD, will HE still count it as Righteousness?

NO!
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
What scares me is the jews thought the work of circumcision is essential for salvation. Paul had to come down hard on them. Calling them fools for trying to begin in the spirit, but perfect it in the flesh (by works) even telling them if they are going to add one aspect. They better add them all.

As for the thought many decide not to get baptised. I have been to many churches. Known many children of God. And I have never heard such a thing. In fact when I see new believers they usually can not wait to get baptised. For the few who really want to, but are afraid due to fear of public speaking. Even they eventually get baptised. So if people are not getting baptised. I would wonder deep and hard why. And wonder deep and hard why they are not following the HS. And i think you get the picture.

What’s worries me is if people are trusting in the work of baptism (A sign for a believer) which I believe is nothing more than modern day circumcision, (A sign for a jew) Then the warning of paul stands. If circumcision was so sinful when added to the gospel. That paul said anyone teaching it should be anathema’d, what makes adding the work of baptism any less dangerous?
Your covered by baptism, I am covered by the blood of the cross. I hope and pray you see the difference.
e...,

Why do you insist on substituting one for the other? That is your spin attempt to turn it into your thinking...in violation of Rev.22, et al.

They are totally different..keep it in perspective.