KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

[Deade]

All you folks seem to be arguing about different things. KJV1611 is saying that Christ was with God before He was born to Mary. It is very clear that Christ was always the One who dealt with all the ancient patriarchs. graceNpeace thinks you are talking about a different Jesus than the one that came in the flesh. Truth is, we do not know of the origin of the Creator Word. I don't think there is a scripture saying how He came about.

I am with KJV1611 on having reservations about calling God three persons. Especially since it means from son. Three entities might cover it, but then we are still labeling/limiting God. When one of us can explain the Holy Spirit and how it can be everywhere at once, hear every prayer, cause every seed to sprout and cause all animals to procreate, etc., etc...that one can then explain it to the rest of us.

 

[graceNpeace]

From what Gabriel told Mary we can deduce that by means of the Holy Spirit God (probably the Father) inseminated Mary without compromising her virginity. That is the usual and most common sense of begotten.

Begotten has the legal sense of direct descent as opposed to adoption.

Ps 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
KJV


this day hah yom is the day this is the definite article 'the'. the demonstrative pronoun zeh or zoht signifying this or that is absent

I am quite familiar with the meaning of the English word "begotten".
However the Greek word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) translated begotten in certain verses in the KJV and perhaps other translations does not have the meanings you allude to.
The word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) simply refers to something that is unique.
It does not convey any primary meaning that could be construed as reproductive.

Complicating matters further is that the word "begotten" is also used in the KJV to translate other words where the generally accepted English meaning of the word would be appropriate in the translation.

I have seen the misunderstanding of the word "begotten" as translated from monogenēs (μονογενὴς) cause untold confusion where it has been used by those with no knowledge of Koine Greek to justify a position that denied the divinity of Christ on the misinformed grounds that since Christ was "begotten" (English meaning) it meant that He was a created being and hence not divine.
So this is no small issue!
And, it is also the reason why many translations avoid the English word "begotten" in translating Johannine writings to refer to Jesus Christ where the Koine word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) is employed.

However, just understanding what monogenēs (μονογενὴς) really means makes using the several Johannine references to the "only begotten" Son as a means to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ impossible.
Simply put the word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) has absolutely no reproductive implication whatsoever!

 

[MarcR]

All you folks seem to be arguing about different things. KJV1611 is saying that Christ was with God before He was born to Mary. It is very clear that Christ was always the One who dealt with all the ancient patriarchs. graceNpeace thinks you are talking about a different Jesus than the one that came in the flesh. Truth is, we do not know of the origin of the Creator Word. I don't think there is a scripture saying how He came about.

I am with KJV1611 on having reservations about calling God three persons. Especially since it means from son. Three entities might cover it, but then we are still labeling/limiting God. When one of us can explain the Holy Spirit and how it can be everywhere at once, hear every prayer, cause every seed to sprout and cause all animals to procreate, etc., etc...that one can then explain it to the rest of us.

The question is 'What constitutes personhood?'

Gen 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
KJV

God created man in his own image If I look in a mirror and claim to see God I am either blaspheming or very confused.

So then, How are we in the image of God? The three attributes we share with God are: intellect, will, and emotion.

God, and we think and reason. Isa 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
KJV


God and we decide Gen 1:3
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
KJV


God and we have emotions Gen 6:6
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
KJV


These three attributes are the essence of personhood IMO.



The Spirit has intellect: Gen 6:6
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
KJV


The Spirit has will [he decides] 1 Cor 12:11
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV


The Spirit has emotion(s) Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

The Spirit is a person of the Godhead.

 

[Deade]

The Spirit is a person of the Godhead.

Well MarcR, I think this is an oversimplification. You cannot separate the HS from the Father or from Christ. The HS is what makes God: God. We are told everything the HS does and then is disbursed to all believers: When we can understand all that then we could possibly put a label on it. Until then, possibly face to face with Christ, I am going to refrain.

 

[graceNpeace]

All you folks seem to be arguing about different things. KJV1611 is saying that Christ was with God before He was born to Mary. It is very clear that Christ was always the One who dealt with all the ancient patriarchs. graceNpeace thinks you are talking about a different Jesus than the one that came in the flesh. Truth is, we do not know of the origin of the Creator Word. I don't think there is a scripture saying how He came about.

I am with KJV1611 on having reservations about calling God three persons. Especially since it means from son. Three entities might cover it, but then we are still labeling/limiting God. When one of us can explain the Holy Spirit and how it can be everywhere at once, hear every prayer, cause every seed to sprout and cause all animals to procreate, etc., etc...that one can then explain it to the rest of us.

KJV1611 seems to have the idea the "Christians" think that Jesus Christ is a created being.
Not sure who he is referring to but no orthodox doctrine dealing with either Theology proper or Christology agrees with that.
And I made it very clear that I believe that Jesus Christ is eternal - and that fits with my understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.
He made a very strange statement, that only on repeated requests to clarify his position regarding that statement devolved to apparently merely wanting to state that Jesus Christ was not created (at the time of His human conception, I suppose).

However, it still appears to me that KJV1611 is struggling with many fundamental Christian doctrines intermixed with the pernicious position of being KJVO. And the rather queer wording of that statement appears to be a mirror reflecting this confusion.

 

[trofimus]

The Nicene creed if I'm not mistaken says that Jesus Christ the eternal God came out of God, I do not believe that. I believe that the earthly body of Jesus Christ was begotting by God and NOT the eternal Jesus Christ.

I know you do not believe that. Thats why I said you do not believe these common ancient Christian creeds

And I said its interesting that you, having the perfect preserved and uncorrupted word of God are going your own way while we, having "corrupted, gnostic, allegoric, Egyptian, changed etc" Bibles are still following ancient Christianity...

 

[trofimus]

KJV1611, if Son is not of Father, how is Father His head? How do you explain such verses showing Son´s submissions to Father?

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3

 

[KJV1611]

All you folks seem to be arguing about different things. KJV1611 is saying that Christ was with God before He was born to Mary. It is very clear that Christ was always the One who dealt with all the ancient patriarchs. graceNpeace thinks you are talking about a different Jesus than the one that came in the flesh. Truth is, we do not know of the origin of the Creator Word. I don't think there is a scripture saying how He came about.

I am with KJV1611 on having reservations about calling God three persons. Especially since it means from son. Three entities might cover it, but then we are still labeling/limiting God. When one of us can explain the Holy Spirit and how it can be everywhere at once, hear every prayer, cause every seed to sprout and cause all animals to procreate, etc., etc...that one can then explain it to the rest of us.

My stance on the Godhead is that I don't understand it... I believe it is 3 persons but I believe the 3 persons are the same person. I know that sounds like mumbo jumbo right lol. The Godhead is hard to understand.

 

[KJV1611]

I am quite familiar with the meaning of the English word "begotten".
However the Greek word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) translated begotten in certain verses in the KJV and perhaps other translations does not have the meanings you allude to.
The word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) simply refers to something that is unique.
It does not convey any primary meaning that could be construed as reproductive.

Complicating matters further is that the word "begotten" is also used in the KJV to translate other words where the generally accepted English meaning of the word would be appropriate in the translation.

I have seen the misunderstanding of the word "begotten" as translated from monogenēs (μονογενὴς) cause untold confusion where it has been used by those with no knowledge of Koine Greek to justify a position that denied the divinity of Christ on the misinformed grounds that since Christ was "begotten" (English meaning) it meant that He was a created being and hence not divine.
So this is no small issue!
And, it is also the reason why many translations avoid the English word "begotten" in translating Johannine writings to refer to Jesus Christ where the Koine word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) is employed.

However, just understanding what monogenēs (μονογενὴς) really means makes using the several Johannine references to the "only begotten" Son as a means to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ impossible.
Simply put the word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) has absolutely no reproductive implication whatsoever!

MarcR what is the meaning of the Hebrew word in Psalms translated as begotten?

[h=1]Psalm 2:7 King James Version (KJV)[/h]7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

 

[KJV1611]

KJV1611 seems to have the idea the "Christians" think that Jesus Christ is a created being.
Not sure who he is referring to but no orthodox doctrine dealing with either Theology proper or Christology agrees with that.
And I made it very clear that I believe that Jesus Christ is eternal - and that fits with my understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.
He made a very strange statement, that only on repeated requests to clarify his position regarding that statement devolved to apparently merely wanting to state that Jesus Christ was not created (at the time of His human conception, I suppose).

However, it still appears to me that KJV1611 is struggling with many fundamental Christian doctrines intermixed with the pernicious position of being KJVO. And the rather queer wording of that statement appears to be a mirror reflecting this confusion.

That's not what I believe and that's not what I said lol. People here are saying that Christ "came out" of the Father. I'm asking where does the bible say that. And also what does "came out" of the Father mean?

 

[KJV1611]

I know you do not believe that. Thats why I said you do not believe these common ancient Christian creeds

And I said its interesting that you, having the perfect preserved and uncorrupted word of God are going your own way while we, having "corrupted, gnostic, allegoric, Egyptian, changed etc" Bibles are still following ancient Christianity...

I have to go with what the bible says trof. The bible doesn't teach that Jesus came of God, the only place I can find that doctrine is in a Catholic creed.

 

[trofimus]

I have to go with what the bible says trof. The bible doesn't teach that Jesus came of God, the only place I can find that doctrine is in a Catholic creed.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. "
Heb 1:3

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
J 1:18

 

[KJV1611]

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. "
Heb 1:3

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
J 1:18

I don't know why you uses verses like those to prove Christ came out of God, they don't say that in any way shape or form.

The son radiates God's glory because Jesus IS God, not because he came out of God. Your using an expression of the likeness of Christ and God to PROVE that Christ came out of God.

Begotten means to bring about or cause to happen. God did not bring about or cause Christ the eternal being to exist, God brought about the physical earthly body of Christ. This is repeated several times in scripture.

Hebrews 10:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

That body in Hebrews 10 is the body that God sired through Mary, the one he brought into existence, the one God begat.

 

[John146]

I don't know why you uses verses like those to prove Christ came out of God, they don't say that in any way shape or form.

The son radiates God's glory because Jesus IS God, not because he came out of God. Your using an expression of the likeness of Christ and God to PROVE that Christ came out of God.

Begotten means to bring about or cause to happen. God did not bring about or cause Christ the eternal being to exist, God brought about the physical earthly body of Christ. This is repeated several times in scripture.

Hebrews 10:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

That body in Hebrews 10 is the body that God sired through Mary, the one he brought into existence, the one God begat.

And let's get John 1:18 correct: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus came from the bosom of His Father. Throughout Scripture, bosom is understood as by one's side.

 

[trofimus]

I don't know why you uses verses like those to prove Christ came out of God, they don't say that in any way shape or form.

The son radiates God's glory because Jesus IS God, not because he came out of God. Your using an expression of the likeness of Christ and God to PROVE that Christ came out of God.

Begotten means to bring about or cause to happen. God did not bring about or cause Christ the eternal being to exist, God brought about the physical earthly body of Christ. This is repeated several times in scripture.

Hebrews 10:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

That body in Hebrews 10 is the body that God sired through Mary, the one he brought into existence, the one God begat.

So, you are reading those verses like:

"The Son is radiance of Son´s glory" (not Father´s)

"No one has seen God at any time; the physical body of Jesus, that is in the bosom of the Father, it has explained Him."

?

 

[KJV1611]

So, you are reading those verses like:

"The Son is radiance of Son´s glory" (not Father´s)

"No one has seen God at any time; the physical body of Jesus, that is in the bosom of the Father, it has explained Him."

?

No I read it as the Son radiates the Fathers glory.

 

[KJV1611]

And let's get John 1:18 correct: No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus came from the bosom of His Father. Throughout Scripture, bosom is understood as by one's side.

That verse doesn't say Jesus CAME from the bosom of his Father, it says he is IN his bosom - the bosom is symbolic of the heart or love.

 

[MarcR]

I am quite familiar with the meaning of the English word "begotten".
However the Greek word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) translated begotten in certain verses in the KJV and perhaps other translations does not have the meanings you allude to.
The word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) simply refers to something that is unique.
It does not convey any primary meaning that could be construed as reproductive.

Complicating matters further is that the word "begotten" is also used in the KJV to translate other words where the generally accepted English meaning of the word would be appropriate in the translation.

I have seen the misunderstanding of the word "begotten" as translated from monogenēs (μονογενὴς) cause untold confusion where it has been used by those with no knowledge of Koine Greek to justify a position that denied the divinity of Christ on the misinformed grounds that since Christ was "begotten" (English meaning) it meant that He was a created being and hence not divine.
So this is no small issue!
And, it is also the reason why many translations avoid the English word "begotten" in translating Johannine writings to refer to Jesus Christ where the Koine word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) is employed.

However, just understanding what monogenēs (μονογενὴς) really means makes using the several Johannine references to the "only begotten" Son as a means to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ impossible.
Simply put the word monogenēs (μονογενὴς) has absolutely no reproductive implication whatsoever!

I fully agree with you, brother. However what the word means in light of Gabriel's revelation to Mary is important , IMO.

 

[KJV1611]

I'm off to work but I will pop in and out.

 

[MarcR]

MarcR what is the meaning of the Hebrew word in Psalms translated as begotten?

Psalm 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

יְלִדְְתִּֽךָ is the qal perfect of יָלַד; which means to bear children or to cause a woman to conceive. In appropriate context it can mean to midwife or assist in delivery. the nouns yeled boy and yaldah girl are derived from it. Literally Thou art my son the day I have caused you to be conceived.