Amillennialism

Ariel82 · Mar 7, 2018

I believe we have people who believe in all the options 1-4 in this forum. I also believe each person believes their beliefs conforms with the Book of Revelation.

what i don't understand is the need for some people to insult others because they don't agree with their views.

perhaps such people link salvation with correct doctrine instead of by Faith alone in Jesus atoning work upon the Cross?

Ariel82 · Mar 7, 2018

PennEd said:

The Israelites will either accept Jesus as Messiah and be grafted back in or they will be tossed into the fire as unbelievers.

the question is when do people believe "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"? also WHY were some people's hearts harden and others NOT? (probably not questions anyone but GOD can truly answer)

also people's belief in "election" and what that means also plays a role in how scriptures are interpreted.

Ariel82 · Mar 7, 2018

Chester said:

yeah my journey was more.... i read the Bible. then I read the various stances. then I read the Bible again. then I compared the stances and then i read the bible again then I looked at world history then I read the Bible again and finally i prayed and Amil makes the most logical sense and most consistent with ALL the bible.

so i haven't revisited Eschatology in years and I thought I would reexamine Revelation.

folks are welcome to make suggestions and comment and talk, but truthfully I am looking at articles, bible verses and praying to examine what I believe and if it lines up with the Bible and what God has revealed.

since you seem so easily swayed from one position to the next, perhaps you should re-examine your own beliefs about how much you truly understand of any of those positions you supposedly studied?

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

PennEd said:

The only word you made huge, big, bold and red - until - is not present in the Greek text.

This should warn you that you are building your view on a sand (a specific translation choice), not on a rock (clear Greek text).

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

Greetings Noose,

As it is with all Biblical topics, we must consult the word of God in order to come to a right conclusion. That said, let's look at the related scriptures in light of your claim that the gathering of the living church (rapture) has been taking place for 2000 years.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

When looking at the details of the scripture above, it tells us that the dead in Christ are going to resurrect first. The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is defined as the body standing up again, as defined below.

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Strong's Concordance

anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising

Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

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So, as you can see from the description above, the resurrection has to do with spirit returning to the body and standing up again. When this takes place, God will reanimate their dead bodies into their immortal and glorified state. If you will look at the scripture, when the resurrection takes place, the dead in Christ all resurrect at the same time, as a group. Immediately after that, the scripture states that, those in Christ who are alive will then be changed into their immortal bodies and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. Again, this event takes place to all those in Christ at the same time, as group.

So what you will have is all of the dead in Christ from on-set of the church up until the resurrection, with those who living being changed into their immortal bodies and being caught up, which will result in the entire church, from beginning to end, meeting the Lord in the air.

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Therefore, since the context reveals that this event takes place for all the dead and living in the blink of an eye and at the same moment, this event is not something that can take place over a 2000 year period. Case in point, if the dead resurrect first and the living are to meet them in the air, then the resurrected would have been waiting in the air for 2000 years.

Regarding the above, I am not familiar with any resurrection in chapter 6 of Revelation. You have obviously misinterpreted one of the seals. My guess is that you are referring to those under the altar revealed at the opening of the fifth seal. These are the souls of those who will have died at the hands of the inhabitants of the earth during the first 3 1/2 of God's tribulation period. From the chronological order of Revelation, they are spirit and will have not yet been resurrected. Those under the altar has nothing to do with the gathering of the church, as the church will have already been gathered prior to the 5th seal being opened.

When God's wrath begins, everyone will know it, because be very obvious. It will be an unprecedented time of wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population and dismantle all human government (See Dan.2:31-46). Scripture even states that they will know that God is the One who is responsible for the disasters that are coming upon the earth, as the followings scriptures reveal:

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Even after all of God's events of wrath, instead of repenting they will refuse to repent and will curse God who they know is responsible for all of these plagues of wrath. These plagues of wrath will be so severe that every one on the earth will know that they are in the time period of God's wrath.

Once again, we must consult the word of God to come to a right conclusion on any Biblical subject, else anyone could interpret the word of God anyway they desire. Now regarding your claim that "The return of Jesus is also not a physical event" the word of supports the physical return of Christ.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

""Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."

According to Philippians 1:22-23 and 2 Corinthians 5:6, to be present in the body, is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. This means that when a believer in Christ dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with Him all of those spirits who will have died in Him and will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

Looking back at the definition above, the resurrection has to do with the physical body standing up again. Jesus is our example of the resurrection, for his spirit was in the Sheol (the place of comfort) for 3 days and 3 nights and then returned to his body on the third day standing back up again. He proved this to His disciples when He appeared before them and they thought that they were seeing a spirit. But he comforts them proving that it is He Himself by showing them the nail marks in His hands and His feet saying to them "a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have."

My point in all of this is that we must consult the word of God to make a right interpretation, otherwise they false teachings.

I hope that you will consider all that I have posted here and look closely at the scriptures provided in support of these Biblical truths.

garee · Mar 7, 2018

Chester said:

Hi brother, if I could ask.What made you decide to look to the literal understanding of that parable found in Revelation 20 and not that which they signified as to the spiritual understanding hid from natural man? I am sure your friends as brother in Christ from the Amil camp have asked you.

It would appear to contradict the kind of hermeneutics necessary for understanding that parable . The Holy Spirit not only sent it but also signified it, giving us His understanding .

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What does the literal word "thousand" signify spiritually?

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

trofimus said:

My bad, its there.

What is not there is "then" or "after that" Israel will be saved.

tanakh · Mar 7, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Fact is amillenialists believe that there is no literal 1000 year period when Christ reigns on Earth along with all the beliefs that go with it. Instead they believe that Christ is reigning in a spiritual kingdom seated in Heaven has been since his ascension and will continue to until his second coming in judgement. You may not believe this although if not I would be interested to know what you think Christ has been doing all this time. Some on this site attack those who read anything other than the Bible. I think it is a good thing to understand the beliefs of others even though you may not agree with them

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

Ariel82 said:

Hello Ariel,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand yearswere complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand yearswere complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whenever scripture is consistent, in this case referring to "a thousand years" it is an indication that God means a literal thousand years. It is not symbolic for an unknown amount of time as the Amillennialist's claim, but consistently refers to the same amount of time, a thousand years. Regarding this thousand year period the context states the following:

* Satan will be bound during that thousand years

* Satan won't be able to deceive the nations during the thousand years

* The great tribulation saints will resurrect and will reign with Christ during that thousand years

* The rest of the dead (unrighteous) do not resurrect until the thousand years have finished

* Those who take part in the first resurrection will reign with Christ during that thousand years

* When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from the Abyss

Therefore, there is nothing in the context that would suggest that the thousand years is anything but a literal thousand year period. To apply a different meaning is to just completely ignore the plain meaning of scripture and that because of the teachings of men.

The end conclusion is that, we have a detailed account in Rev.19:11-21 of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age after the completion of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Following that we have Rev.20:1-7 representing the thousand year period.

In Rev.20:11-15 we have the great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead.

And then in Revelation chapters 21 & 22, we have the eternal state with the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. This is the chronological order of these events.

I hope that you will look into the scriptures and consider all that I have presented here.

Noose · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

It is very easy to say your point of view is biblical and other people's point of view are not biblical. The event you are talking about is not the rapture that we are discussing; that event is not imminent, it is an event that will happen in the very end after millennial rule of Christ here on Earth just before judgement.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

According to this passage, the first resurrection is not bodily resurrection and it is only for those who died in Christ during these end times when Antichrist rules (the last 2000 years and counting). Their souls will rule with Christ here on Earth for a millennium and then they'll judge with Christ. At this moment, no one is raised to heaven even.

The terms "caught in a cloud" or "coming with the cloud" have a spiritual meaning rather than a physical one. When Paul says we will caught in a cloud, he implies the same meaning when Jesus says that the son of will come in a cloud.
Either way, it never means a see -able events:

Matt 26:64 “You have said it yourself, Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

From that moment on, no one literally saw Jesus riding a cloud because that's not what he meant definitely. You need to review your view point so that it aligns with the scriptures.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

Good day tanakh,

Well for one, Jesus went back to the Father to prepare places for all believers in the Father's house - John 14:1-3

And two, he sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for all believers on their behalf. I'm sure that in addition to these, He is also doing a lot more.

It is good to know other beliefs, so that we can show them what God has to say about whether those beliefs are according to scripture or not. The main reason that we have so many different views on any given Biblical topic, is because of false teachers and teachings that have they have introduced distorting God's word, which continue on till this very day. Regarding this, those who diligently study the word of God are contending for the truth of His word.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2018

You just proved my point! I just provided all of the scripture to support this event and you completely ignored it. Did you even look at the details of the dead being resurrected, the living being changed and the definition of the word "anastasis?" I don't believe you did, because, like many, you are just programmed to ignore the truth when it is presented and to protect the false teaching that you have adopted. If you can read 1 Thes.4:13-18 and come away with the gathering of the church taking place over 2000 year period, then you are either not even capable of comprehending what you are reading or you are just ignoring it completely.

Again, you paid no attention to the meaning of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection," which only has to do with the body standing up again. According to the definition of the word, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection, as it always involves the body. When the dead resurrect, it will be in the same bodies that were buried in, except they will be upgraded to immortal and glorified bodies. Those living in Christ at the time of the resurrection, their bodies will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified state, with the whole group at one event, meeting the Lord in the air.

You people need to read the word of God and believe what you are reading instead of making up your own interpretations. However, this is to be expected, because believers are warned that this would happen in the last days:

"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

PennEd · Mar 7, 2018

tanakh said:

So King David's Throne was/is in Heaven? If not, please tell when Jesus sat on it.

Luke 1:32 [FONT=&quot]He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. [/FONT]

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

PennEd said:

Then Jesus said to them, “Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David?
David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:

The Lord said to my Lord:
Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.

David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?
Lk 20:43

Maybe this is related to your question.

PennEd · Mar 7, 2018

trofimus said:

Yeah...... NO! Doesn't answer the question at all. David was Jesus' father in the sense of His human lineage. You do believe Jesus was fully human right? Otherwise He couldn't pay our sin debt.

Gabriel tells Mary that God the Father will give Jesus a political, physical Earthly throne. Now if that throne is Heavenly, please tell when David sat on his throne in Heaven.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 7, 2018

tanakh said:

What I was pointing out is that Amillenilism claims that Christ is already reigning on the earth and that the Kingdom of God has already been established, while the 1,000 years is merely a figure of speech for this period.

https://www.theopedia.com/amillennialism

If it is simply "a spiritual kingdom" then that totally nullifies dozens of prophecies which speak of a real, literal, visible, tangible Kingdom on Earth. IOW you could cut out half the Bible.

According to Scripture this is what Christ is presently doing:

1. Christ is seated on His throne at the right hand of the Father.

2. Christ is the High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

3. Christ is the Mediator between God men.

4. Christ is the Divine Intercessor in Heaven.

5. Christ is with all the saints who are already in Heaven (the New Jerusalem).

But here is the important Scripture which points to His real, physical, and literal coming with His saints and angels (depicted as clouds): But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Heb 1:13). This is a quote from Psalm 110:1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

But we cannot ignore the next verse which plainly tells us that Christ will literally rule on this earth:The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Now how will Christ rule "in the midst" of His enemies? By utterly destroying them. Firstly He will destroy all His enemies at the Battle of Armageddon, but then He will destroy all the kingdoms of this world to establish the literal Kingdom of God on earth. This is clearly stated in the Bible:

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever...I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 2:44; 7:14)

Is the world under the literal dominion of Christ, and are "all people, nations, and languages" now serving the Lord Jesus Christ? The answer is quite obvious. The enemies of Christ and Christianity are dominating the world at this time, and all you have to do is read the daily news to confirm that. So will there be a time when the literal Kingdom of God is established on earth and Christ rules "with a rod of iron" (absolute authority)? Absolutely.

Locutus · Mar 7, 2018

The throne is in the heavens, David throne is where Christ is sitting now at the right hand of the Father:

Acts 2:30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,

Acts 2:34 “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND

When Christ ascended it was to sit on David's throne, a "spiritual" throne, not one based on the land.

trofimus · Mar 7, 2018

PennEd said:

So, why do you think Jesus was telling this and what did He want to say by this?

Noose · Mar 7, 2018

Ahwatukee

You might be the one who misunderstands. The notion that people have to understand Hebrew or Greek to have a correct understanding of the scripture is misguided.
"anastasis" may mean bodily resurrection in Hebrew or whatever but the scriptures might be using it very differently.

We know of two resurrections, one being the one where souls of the dead in Christ are resurrected and they rule with Christ for a millennium. The second is when everyone else is resurrected for judgement. The first is not a mass event and never a physical event because the souls are raised as they die to be with the Lord until the end of the age when they will rule with Christ for a millennium. The second will be a mass event as described by Daniel and John in Revelation:

Dan 12: 1"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Rev 20:11 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Both Daniel and John are talking about judgement and they both talk of resurrection. And my point is, that Paul was talking about the resurrection that precedes judgement- it is the very last event. Many people misunderstand Paul because he uses the words "caught up in the clouds", i've already shown (Matt24:64), it is not literal - sitting in the right hand of God and coming with the clouds have a spiritual meaning. Afterall, God doesn't have a right and a left side, the right hand of God only means the righteousness of God or righteous judgement. In other verses it is said "seated on the right hand of power..".

Even though during Jesus' ascension, the angel said to the disciples that His return will be of the same manner (was swallowed by the clouds- so will appear in the clouds), Jesus speech many times confirms that His return is not physical.

Luke 17:20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come,Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Matt 24:22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

The son of man is indeed the kingdom of God which doesn't come with observable signs.

Mark 9:1
Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

Matt 16: 28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Ariel82 · Mar 7, 2018

Scripture RevealedThe Meaning of Numbers: The Number 1000 - Scripture Revealed

1000 in Reference to Time – Days, Years, and Generations

Deuteronomy 7:9 (KJV) – “…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”

1 Chronicles 16:15 (KJV) – “Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;”

Psalms 84:10 (KJV) – “For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand.”

Psalms 90:4 (KJV) – “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,”

Psalms 105:8 (KJV) – “He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”

Ecclesiastes 6:6 (KJV) – “Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?”

It should be obvious from the above that every occurrence of the word “thousand,” by itself, is not literal but symbolic. It represents a large number or extended period of time. Then, why is it when we go to the book of Revelation (the most symbolic book of them all), many interpret this thousand years as literal? Especially when there is no scriptural warrant for doing so?

*****

Running errands,just some scriptures and an article to ponder.

Amillennialism

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