Jesus: Both Son and Father?
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[h=1]Modalism[/h]by Matt Slick
4/30/2008
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.
Present-day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is from carm.org
Thanks,
People keep saying that my belief is modalism; maybe it is maybe not, but i do believe that the Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God at different times for different purposes. IMO, so many scriptures support this idea but the idea is brought on the fore clearly by:
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,Prince of Peace.
According to this verse, the name means authority and Isaiah says that the person (who we all believe is Jesus) has these authorities:
Son=Son
Wonderful Counselor= Holy spirit
Eternal Father= Father
Jesus also alludes so many times in John that he comes back as the Holy spirit to be with the disciples forever. It is even clearer when He was talking before his ascension- He tells them that He will ask the Father to send the comforter and in another verse he says that He will send the comforter (making Himself the Father). He also says the comforter was already there with them but it was good that He goes so that the comforter comes in them and if He doesn't go, the comforter will not come in them yet the comforter was there with them- this basically means that He was indeed the comforter but had to go and come in a form that will indwell them.
And so many places in John, Jesus explain this relationship- He also tells them that in a while they'll see Him no more and in a little while they will see Him again and he shall not leave them. Even the disciples were confused.
In Revelation 21:7 The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
Jesus calls Himself the Father.
I don't know if this is modalism but it is what the scriptures advocate.
People keep saying that my belief is modalism; maybe it is maybe not, but i do believe that the Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God at different times for different purposes. IMO, so many scriptures support this idea but the idea is brought on the fore clearly by:
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,Prince of Peace.
According to this verse, the name means authority and Isaiah says that the person (who we all believe is Jesus) has these authorities:
Son=Son
Wonderful Counselor= Holy spirit
Eternal Father= Father
Jesus also alludes so many times in John that he comes back as the Holy spirit to be with the disciples forever. It is even clearer when He was talking before his ascension- He tells them that He will ask the Father to send the comforter and in another verse he says that He will send the comforter (making Himself the Father). He also says the comforter was already there with them but it was good that He goes so that the comforter comes in them and if He doesn't go, the comforter will not come in them yet the comforter was there with them- this basically means that He was indeed the comforter but had to go and come in a form that will indwell them.
And so many places in John, Jesus explain this relationship- He also tells them that in a while they'll see Him no more and in a little while they will see Him again and he shall not leave them. Even the disciples were confused.
In Revelation 21:7 The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
Jesus calls Himself the Father.
I don't know if this is modalism but it is what the scriptures advocate.
We also have the scriptures where God talks to Jesus and where Jesus says He will send the Spirit who will never leave or forsake us. To me God is 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. Its Definately a hard concept for us to get our heads around. We also have the scriptures the tell us the Spirit reveals Jesus to us and how God said let us create man in our image etc. Then we have the different names For God and Jesus and the different roles they perform.
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Everlasting Father does not mean that Jesus is the Father, is is because He is the initiator of creation. In the Hebrew culture "father of" means the ource or initiator and "son of" means of the same nature. We know that Christ is the father of creation because He is it's origin. Hebrews 1:1-2 “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.”
Colossians 1:16-17 “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Jesus is the origin of all creation and He is the Son because He has the same nature as the Father, we see this phrase "son of" used of other prophets that are not Elijah or Elisha sons. II Kings 2:15-16
“Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him opposite them, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.16 And they said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men. Please let them go and seek your master. It may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.”
Colossians 1:16-17 “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Jesus is the origin of all creation and He is the Son because He has the same nature as the Father, we see this phrase "son of" used of other prophets that are not Elijah or Elisha sons. II Kings 2:15-16
“Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him opposite them, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.16 And they said to him, “Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men. Please let them go and seek your master. It may be that the Spirit of the Lord has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send.”
You logic/reasoning is flawed. Yes God the Father is the Savior according to Isaiah 43:11. And Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a SAVIOR, who is Christ the Lord." God the Father is identified in Scripture as the Lord and at 1 Corinthians 8:6 it says, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."
Since the text says there is only one Lord who is Jesus Christ does this mean that God the Father is not the Lord? Of course not because there is only one God who share the same exact nature and essence. They are however, three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I'll give you another example of what I mean. It says at Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Now look at Revelation 1:17 where Jesus is talking, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last." Are there two first and last carl? Are there two Lords? Are there two Saviors or two Redeemers? Of course not. There is only one God who chose to identify Himself in the Bible as three distinct persons. Not modes, not roles and not aspects. Any more questions?
PS: And don't take this personally but I think you have a problem of not knowing how to reconcile what appears to be contradictions in the Bible. There are no contradictions.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Since the text says there is only one Lord who is Jesus Christ does this mean that God the Father is not the Lord? Of course not because there is only one God who share the same exact nature and essence. They are however, three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I'll give you another example of what I mean. It says at Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Now look at Revelation 1:17 where Jesus is talking, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last." Are there two first and last carl? Are there two Lords? Are there two Saviors or two Redeemers? Of course not. There is only one God who chose to identify Himself in the Bible as three distinct persons. Not modes, not roles and not aspects. Any more questions?
PS: And don't take this personally but I think you have a problem of not knowing how to reconcile what appears to be contradictions in the Bible. There are no contradictions. IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I don't believe Christ and the Father are the same person, i do believe these are two authorities that applied to Jesus. Authorities are not persons.
Ok, make me understand- What makes you think Jesus can not be the Father? because when i read the scriptures, He is the Father. When Paul says, that fullness of deity dwells in Him, did he mean only the authority of the son or every authority of God including the authority of the Father. Understand that I'm looking them as authorities.
Ok, make me understand- What makes you think Jesus can not be the Father? because when i read the scriptures, He is the Father. When Paul says, that fullness of deity dwells in Him, did he mean only the authority of the son or every authority of God including the authority of the Father. Understand that I'm looking them as authorities.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'
There are authorities, I guess, God is the main one, then His word, then His Spirit possibly? I know that the holy spirit is our teacher lets us recall upon things we have read in the bible.
I know God gave all the authority to Jesus Christ, all in Heaven and Earth...
Then there is a time in 1 Corinthians 15, where Jesus Christ gives everything back to God.
It's intresting. I could go more into detail but I'll leave it up to you to choose, what you do use this information for.
Love you guys, and be kind to each other God bless, all of you every one of you that come in an out of this site and your families and friends.
There are authorities, I guess, God is the main one, then His word, then His Spirit possibly? I know that the holy spirit is our teacher lets us recall upon things we have read in the bible.
I know God gave all the authority to Jesus Christ, all in Heaven and Earth...
Then there is a time in 1 Corinthians 15, where Jesus Christ gives everything back to God.
It's intresting. I could go more into detail but I'll leave it up to you to choose, what you do use this information for.
Love you guys, and be kind to each other
God bless, all of you every one of you that come in an out of this site and your families and friends.
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You completely missed the point.
Isa 9.6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,Prince of Peace.
Name here and as used in many instances in the bible, doesn't mean what we nowadays call a name, it is not a name like SovereignGrace- name here means authority. The child will have the following authorities:
Wonderful Counselor (Holy spirit)
Eternal Father (Father)
Prince of peace
This is how i know they are authorities not persons.
Isa 9.6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,Prince of Peace.
Name here and as used in many instances in the bible, doesn't mean what we nowadays call a name, it is not a name like SovereignGrace- name here means authority. The child will have the following authorities:
Wonderful Counselor (Holy spirit)
Eternal Father (Father)
Prince of peace
This is how i know they are authorities not persons.
Who taught you this stuff noose? Rather then me personally explaing the meaning of Isaiah 9:6 I will give you what Rob Bowman says on the subject who btw I have known for years when we picketing wof conventions where copeland, hinn and others were speaking back in the 1980's in Anaheim California. https://www.gospeloutreach.net/optrin.html
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
This a subject that has been discussed for centuries,and it is "rather perplexing" because as we know...
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God(Jesus/His wisdom and truth)and the word was God" but some "differences" yet "joinings" are found between the three.But let's start first with how they appear in general in the bible in "respectful order".
1.God Almighty in full glory to look upon his face one would die,creator of heaven and earth,and all people and creatures.
2.Jesus/Immanuel,Born of God's Holy spirit and virgin mary,bore the world's(everyone's) sins,yet was fully God and fully man and never sinned,given all authority and power by God to do all things according to God's will including give the possibility of being saved by believing in all he did through his crucifixion,burial,and resurrection.
3.Holy spirit/Comforter was sent to earth after Jesus's last ascension into heaven by God to be a teacher to all who would receive his son Jesus through accepting his crucifixion,burial and resurrection,as well as a "convictor" to keep the acceptors "from sinning willfully" (never being able to sin willfully without feeling guilt for doing so)
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God(Jesus/His wisdom and truth)and the word was God" but some "differences" yet "joinings" are found between the three.But let's start first with how they appear in general in the bible in "respectful order".
1.God Almighty in full glory to look upon his face one would die,creator of heaven and earth,and all people and creatures.
2.Jesus/Immanuel,Born of God's Holy spirit and virgin mary,bore the world's(everyone's) sins,yet was fully God and fully man and never sinned,given all authority and power by God to do all things according to God's will including give the possibility of being saved by believing in all he did through his crucifixion,burial,and resurrection.
3.Holy spirit/Comforter was sent to earth after Jesus's last ascension into heaven by God to be a teacher to all who would receive his son Jesus through accepting his crucifixion,burial and resurrection,as well as a "convictor" to keep the acceptors "from sinning willfully" (never being able to sin willfully without feeling guilt for doing so)