Jesus: Both Son and Father?

[posthuman]

i think a good case can be made that the 144k are one and the same with 'the great multitude no man can number'

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV


I don't see how that works. The 144k are supposed to come from the tribes of Israel.

briefly,

because John heard the number "sealed from all the tribes of Israel" -- and then a very strange and wholly unique list of tribes is given -- and immediately afterward John saw the great multitude, who are described as having been made clean ((vis a vis "sealed")) by the blood of the Lamb.

a similar structure is in chapter 21, where John hears that he is going to be shown the Bride of the Lamb, and then sees the heavenly Jerusalem -- making the conclusion obvious that the city is the Bride, being revealed in symbolic vision.

 

[posthuman]

I agree with you that there is no diagram that can represent the trinity or even explain it.

((puts on mathematician hat))

i'm not ready to point at a diagram and say "what about this one, then?" but i don't immediately see any proof that no such diagram can exist. not having a diagram in hand isn't proof that one doesn't exist.
in thinking about it we ought not limit our definition of the word "diagram" to two-dimensional, Euclidean pie-charts and the like. to me the term "diagram" encompasses a lot more than what one can make by pressing buttons on a powerpoint toolbar.



. . . also, i'm thinking it's probably a smaller task to "represent" than to "explain" something, just generally speaking, and certainly true in the specific case of the nature of the Almighty.

 

[posthuman]

actually this might be such a diagram, if we accept it:

Now when he had gone, a lion met him on the way and killed him, and his body was thrown on the road, with the donkey standing beside it; the lion also was standing beside the body. And behold, men passed by and saw the body thrown on the road, and the lion standing beside the body; so they came and told it in the city where the old prophet lived.
(1 Kings 13: 24-25)​

a donkey, the body of an unnamed "man of God" and a lion, all in a row on the road.


or a smoking firepot and a burning lamp passing between the portions of a vow (Genesis 15), could we call that a "diagram" ?

 

[MarcR]

I did read it carefully and her reply was to nehemiah6, not oldhermit, and there was no hint of sarcasm!

Maybe you should try reading the thread carefully before getting on your high horse and throwing nasty rude comments at people!

I had no intention of being nasty or rude. I am truly sorry I came across that way. Since the 'heresy' you are referring to was not identified in the post I responded to, I didn't realize that you and bluto were not addressing the same issue. please identify the post in question.

 

[posthuman]

i'm not ready to point at a diagram and say "what about this one, then?"
. . .

hahaha 9 minutes later . . .

 

[MarcR]

briefly,

because John heard the number "sealed from all the tribes of Israel" -- and then a very strange and wholly unique list of tribes is given -- and immediately afterward John saw the great multitude, who are described as having been made clean ((vis a vis "sealed")) by the blood of the Lamb.

a similar structure is in chapter 21, where John hears that he is going to be shown the Bride of the Lamb, and then sees the heavenly Jerusalem -- making the conclusion obvious that the city is the Bride, being revealed in symbolic vision.

I am still persuaded that Rv 7:9 refers to the rapture.

 

[Noose]

The Church of Philadelphia.

That letter to the Church just soothes my soul.
Not for me as such, though it's Jesus saying you have little strength, I know this and I know your heart is for me.

So how does the 144k relate to this?
Is it an actual figure?

You say angelic measurement.
What is that?

Not being obtuse just not getting what you are saying.

These are off-topic issues but i'll teach you how to draw a correlation and an understanding:

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

Mark the words keep thee from the hour of temptation (basically tribulation) And "..make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God.."

Then:
Rev 7:1[FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These are the ones that were kept from the hour of temptation and were promised to be part of the pillars of the new Jerusalem

Then:

Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

This is the measurement of the new Jerusalem and John says it is angelic measurements of men- 144 cubits.

You can easily tell that they have been talking about the same group all along.

 

[Mtoto]

Jesus is both son and the father this is a mystery to me but when i read John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

 

[posthuman]

Jesus is both son and the father this is a mystery to me but when i read John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Someone wrote earlier in the thread that 'theology isn't salvation' and i thought of this verse too, thinking 'but it is life'

 

[garee]

Not really Bones, there are actually two issues here, their identity and WHEN.

Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they [fn]have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

We know that the are from the tribes of Israel because John states so earlier:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

There is only one set of "144K" - John calls them first fruits, we know from James' letter that the scattered tribes had heard and accepted the gospel:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

Not only is he writing to them he is calling them the first fruits:

Jame 1:18 (Young's Literal) having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

If James is calling these dispersed persons of the 12 tribes first fruit it makes no sense to be looking for some supposed gathered of the tribes 1970+ years later and calling them the first fruits of the book of revelation as the futurist "theologies" do by either ignoring of glossing over what James wrote as if they are chopped liver.

Any persons qualifying as descendants of the 12 tribes today would not qualify as as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

This is just another blatant contradiction in dispensational-esque "theologies:

It would seem chapter 21 of Revelation is a summary of the book .

I would offer as a reminder the Holy Spirit not only inspired the word to John but also "signified it". Hiding the unseen understanding from natural man .

We should look for the spiritual understanding in those parables according to the measure of God, the golden reed , and not the measure of man who measures in cubics

In that description of the bride of Christ prepared as a City as to its residents (Christians) a city where there is no temple, tribes are used to represents gates where mankind come an go go out from and sent ones, apotles are apart of the that same City of Christ its founder she is signified as one hundred and forty four thousand.


And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.Rev 21:9-14

When using the word thousand it represent the golden reed as a unknown . One hundred and forty four thousand represents the chaste virgin bride of Christ , the church.

 

[garee]

You say angelic measurement.
What is that?

Not being obtuse just not getting what you are saying.

I would offer in searching out the meaning in parables the golden reed is the tool as the things of God used to hide the spiritual meaning, it is derived from the literal words used in various parables. Like the one below.

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. Rev 21:15

The measure of man or a angel represents the measure of created beings given in cubits. . While the measure of God as a converter measures residents of the city . The new name Christ named his bride the church .The word "Christian" when defined and adding no other meanings simply means.... residents of the City of Christ named after her founder God.

I would suggest an appropriate name for his bride in whom he previously called Israel or a Jew after the spiritual unseen incorruptible seed.............. Christ as born again believers..

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, "by the word of God," which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Noose]

I would offer in searching out the meaning in parables the golden reed is the tool as the things of God used to hide the spiritual meaning, it is derived from the literal words used in various parables. Like the one below.

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. Rev 21:15

The measure of man or a angel represents the measure of created beings given in cubits. . While the measure of God as a converter measures residents of the city . The new name Christ named his bride the church .The word "Christian" when defined and adding no other meanings simply means.... residents of the City of Christ named after her founder God.

I would suggest an appropriate name for his bride in whom he previously called Israel or a Jew after the spiritual unseen incorruptible seed.............. Christ as born again believers..

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, "by the word of God," which liveth and abideth for ever.

New Jerusalem and it's angelic measurements is a hidden way of saying 144 thousand faithful believers and a name here means authority. Jesus writes on them the name (Authority) of God and that of the city of God (Jerusalem)- this means they take up the authority of the son (which is the authority of God). Jesus also writes on them His new name (authority)- means Jesus takes the authority of the Father (The other authority of God) and they become one.

Jesus says:
Rev 21:7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

 

[bluto]

I agree with you that there is no diagram that can represent the trinity or even explain it. I don't think you understand what I'm trying to get at. The Father who is God, who is Christ who never ceased to be God, is the Holy Spirit who is 3 persons in 1 albeit you nor I can fully understand that. The father who was depicted in the O.T. as God, Jehovah, Yahweh..etc, Christ in the N.T as God in a human form, the H.S. as dove. All are God and yet all are three persons but yet all are one.

It may seem like I am for modalism but that would be far from the truth...I just see it different. I just don't think people are looking at it from a right perspective and yet I will go back to the illustration of the famous triangle which is trying to show how it all works out and yet I see it as they do but like I said I don't think they understood what they were trying to depict. Because I could go out on a limb and say they too are showing modalism in a certain way and yet also showing that there is yet a another "God" which is called the father and yet Christ is just a little bit lower "God" than he is.

Ok carl let me put this another way. First of allyou said this which is totally incorrect: The Father who is God, who is Christ who never ceased to be God, is the Holy Spirit who is 3 persons in 1 albeit you nor I can fully understand that." Look at your very first eight words, "The Father who is God, who is Christ." The Father is not the Christ/Messiah. The Son of God is the Messiah, not the Father.

Now, I see your confusion because you do not know how to reconcile the 3 in 1 issue. Jesus Christ often times referred to Himself in the Bible as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man" for a reason. Jesus is the Son of Man on His mothers side which means Jesus is human. Jesus is the Son of God on His Father's side which would be Deity. Jesus is the one and only person that has two natures, human and God.

You can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as his father. So pay attention. You have the nature of your parents which makes you a human being by nature. This is what you have in common with your parents and so do I. But, you are a distinct person from your parents. You are not the person of your father or mother. It's the same way with God. God is one in nature just like you are one in nature with your parents. God is three in persons because that is how the God of the Bible chose to reveal Himself in three distinct persons.

God is "NOT" separate persons but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the words "separate" and "distinct." When you say or use the word separate you automatically think of three separate beings or gods. So you have like at Mark 1:11,12 you have one person the Father calling out from heaven saying to the second person Jesus Christ that He the Father is well pleased with His Son. At vs12 you have the third person of the Trinity prompting Him/Jesus the second person to go out into the wilderness. Now does this make sense to you carl? I would also suggest that you quit trying to figure out the mechanics of how the ONE GOD is three in one, He just is.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

Ok carl let me put this another way. First of allyou said this which is totally incorrect: The Father who is God, who is Christ who never ceased to be God, is the Holy Spirit who is 3 persons in 1 albeit you nor I can fully understand that." Look at your very first eight words, "The Father who is God, who is Christ." The Father is not the Christ/Messiah. The Son of God is the Messiah, not the Father.

Now, I see your confusion because you do not know how to reconcile the 3 in 1 issue. Jesus Christ often times referred to Himself in the Bible as the "Son of God" and as the "Son of Man" for a reason. Jesus is the Son of Man on His mothers side which means Jesus is human. Jesus is the Son of God on His Father's side which would be Deity. Jesus is the one and only person that has two natures, human and God.

You can prove me wrong by giving me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as his father. So pay attention. You have the nature of your parents which makes you a human being by nature. This is what you have in common with your parents and so do I. But, you are a distinct person from your parents. You are not the person of your father or mother. It's the same way with God. God is one in nature just like you are one in nature with your parents. God is three in persons because that is how the God of the Bible chose to reveal Himself in three distinct persons.

God is "NOT" separate persons but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the words "separate" and "distinct." When you say or use the word separate you automatically think of three separate beings or gods. So you have like at Mark 1:11,12 you have one person the Father calling out from heaven saying to the second person Jesus Christ that He the Father is well pleased with His Son. At vs12 you have the third person of the Trinity prompting Him/Jesus the second person to go out into the wilderness. Now does this make sense to you carl? I would also suggest that you quit trying to figure out the mechanics of how the ONE GOD is three in one, He just is.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Son of God= Righteous of God
Son of man= laden with sin
Son of man coming..= one who overcomes sin/death

 

[bluto]

Jesus is both son and the father this is a mystery to me but when i read John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

No mtoto, Jesus Christ is "NOT" both the son and the father. God the Father and God the Son are distinct persons and not one and the same person. It's the Bible itself that makes the distinction of the persons of the Trinity. Furthermore, Johbn 17:3 is "NOT" teaching they are the same person but rather they are the one God by nature or essence. This is also what John 10:30 is teaching when Jesus said, "I and My Father, We are one."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Deade]

No mtoto, Jesus Christ is "NOT" both the son and the father. God the Father and God the Son are distinct persons and not one and the same person. It's the Bible itself that makes the distinction of the persons of the Trinity. Furthermore, Johbn 17:3 is "NOT" teaching they are the same person but rather they are the one God by nature or essence. This is also what John 10:30 is teaching when Jesus said, "I and My Father, We are one."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Agreed, that is talking about their being of the same character (mind). Jesus doesn't even look the same as He did when He walked the earth. He now has a glorious appearance. John 17:5: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." This should also stop the talk that Jesus did not exist before being born.

Regarding the 144,000, please read my new blog: WHO ARE THE 144,000?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Ok, make me understand- What makes you think Jesus can not be the Father?

Just as you cannot be your Father, Christ cannot be His Father. It is that simple.

And yet the Mystery of God is so profound that no man can fathom it. The Bible is clear that there is only ONE GOD. The Bible is also clear that within the Godhead there are three Divine Persons:

God the Father

God the Word (the Son)

God the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)

It is not for us to use human "reason" to figure this out, but to simply believe it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Son of God= Righteous of God
Son of man= laden with sin
Son of man coming..= one who overcomes sin/death

Where did you come up with this? Christ already overcame sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan at the Cross. When He comes with power and great glory, He will come to destroy all His enemies and establish His literal Kingdom on earth.

And He was not "laden with sin" (which would imply that He was sinful). All our sins, our iniquities, and our guilt were LAID UPON HIM. He became the Sin-Bearer and Substitute for humanity.

 

[KJV1611]

Just as you cannot be your Father, Christ cannot be His Father. It is that simple.

And yet the Mystery of God is so profound that no man can fathom it. The Bible is clear that there is only ONE GOD. The Bible is also clear that within the Godhead there are three Divine Persons:

God the Father

God the Word (the Son)

God the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)

It is not for us to use human "reason" to figure this out, but to simply believe it.

It can be understood, just believe EXACTLY what the Bible says and there can only be one conclusion.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It can be understood, just believe EXACTLY what the Bible says and there can only be one conclusion.

If it could be "understood" it would no longer be "the Mystery of God". God cannot be fathomed by any human being. Yes we can believe what the Bible says, but that is not fathoming God. It is simply believing that He is who He says He is.