Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

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preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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Acts 16:30 - .....So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
m...,
Faith in Jesus Christ cannot be traded off against baptism. Neither can baptism be traded off against faith in Christ.

Each of those elements stands alone.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

Now answer my questions in post #569.
(general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Is this some kind of composition rule? Since when does any "case" require qualifications for unusual circumstances to be valid?

General statements (but he who does not believe will be condemned) enhance more definitive statements (he who believes and is baptized will be saved) but never negates them.

This is clearly what you are attempting to do with this one verse. What is the purpose of Jesus negating Himself in the same breath. Its just 15 little words but you are trying to say that Jesus in one sentence contradicts Himself.

If we are condemned by unbelief what would be the point of Jesus adding "and not baptized"?

On your question,
Then show me just ONE verse in the Bible that says, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved."
Doctrine is not based on what is not said but what is said. Consider the following verse,

"If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Roman 10:9

I cannot show you a verse that states, "whoever does not believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead is condemned". Does the lack of this verse negate the need to believe in the resurrection of our Lord?
 

Deade

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The first thing I did after being saved, once the Holy Spirit started talking with me, was to make plans for my baptism. The HS guided me all the way through this process. I didn't think I had any options other than to obey. My conclusion: Baptism is pretty important. I rest my case. :cool:
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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The first thing I did after being saved, once the Holy Spirit started talking with me, was to make plans for my baptism. The HS guided me all the way through this process. I didn't think I had any options other than to obey. My conclusion: Baptism is pretty important. I rest my case. :cool:
What does "pretty important" mean?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Is this some kind of composition rule? Since when does any "case" require qualifications for unusual circumstances to be valid?
Death bed conversions. It naturally follows that we get baptized "after" we believe, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get baptized before your death, you are still saved because you BELIEVE (Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b) ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible mention "water baptized or condemned."

General statements (but he who does not believe will be condemned) enhance more definitive statements (he who believes and is baptized will be saved) but never negates them.
*Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” so believe and is baptized = general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. *So what happened to baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete staments? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

This is clearly what you are attempting to do with this one verse. What is the purpose of Jesus negating Himself in the same breath. Its just 15 little words but you are trying to say that Jesus in one sentence contradicts Himself.
Jesus did not contradict Himself and if Jesus meant to say that water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then He certainly would have mentioned that in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. But He didn't. Your method of hermeneutics is "isolate, build and ignore." Isolate a handful of pet verses, build your biased doctrine on them, then ignore the context and what the majority of scriptures has to say otherwise on that subject. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

If we are condemned by unbelief what would be the point of Jesus adding "and not baptized"?
Because if we are condemned by a lack of baptism, it needs to be said in order to prove your doctrine. In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned - John 3:18). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. *NOWHERE in the Bible do we find a statement such as "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse. Those who do so are basing their argument on faulty human logic.

On your question, Doctrine is not based on what is not said but what is said. Consider the following verse,

"If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Roman 10:9
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

I find it interesting that confess "precedes" baptism in your multi-step plan of salvation and if we are not saved until after we are water baptized, then Paul lied to us in Romans 10:9,10. God forbid!

*1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply a set of magic words that are recited as an additional requirement for salvation is not unto salvation.

I cannot show you a verse that states, "whoever does not believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead is condemned". Does the lack of this verse negate the need to believe in the resurrection of our Lord?
What do you think that "believing in Him/believing the gospel" entails? The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. Not trust in Christ + "water and works" for salvation -- "different gospel."

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-14, we read - But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

In 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, we read - 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Paul makes it clear that if we don't believe the gospel (which includes the resurrection of Christ) then we are lost. It's also not enough to simply believe "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. *We must also TRUST in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Trusting in "water and works" for salvation "in addition" to trusting in Christ renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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Death bed conversions. It naturally follows that we get baptized "after" we believe, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get baptized before your death, you are still saved because you BELIEVE (Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b) ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible mention "water baptized or condemned......../QUOTE]

m...,

I am sure you would have the same opinion regarding ...repentance...."the person ran out of time". Won't work.

What does...."no one knows the day and hour of death/2nd advent ...be ready"...mean?


You are very miss leading with your scripture.

Don't attempt re-writing The Bible ...follow The Bible.

The Bible says baptism is required in many ways...it is yours to show that it says..no condemnation for failure to do so...and you can't do that.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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m...,
Faith in Jesus Christ cannot be traded off against baptism. Neither can baptism be traded off against faith in Christ.

Each of those elements stands alone.
The word of God is never alone.

We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8 does not read saved by grace through water baptism. Grace and faith are not alone but you cannot substitute one for the other. Grace without faith or faith without grace is of no effect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Why was Jesus baptized?
If you read the earlier parts of the thread you will find that Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. Righteousness according to the law.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 8, 2018
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If you read the earlier parts of the thread you will find that Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. Righteousness according to the law.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So people under the law were required to be baptized? I don't remember reading that.
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [SUP][a][/SUP]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph. 2: 8,9)

Many people read these two verses and assume that all works are excluded from salvation including baptism. We have to be very careful with our assumptions as they will most often take us where are presuppositions have already gone. As we read the next verse we get quite a different slant to things.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2: 10)

As we read this verse we discover that was one of the reasons God created us- to do good works. Wow! Then as our assumptions kick in, some will say yes we are to obey, but our obedience has nothing to do with salvation, we obey to be obedient. Forget Heb. 5: 9, [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9) And the mind games go on until we are hopefully confronted with the truth:
Calling on the name of the Lord saves. (Acts 2: 21)
Repentance saves. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Confessing His name before men saves. (Rom. 10: 10)
Baptism saves. (Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
The washing of regeneration saves. (Titus 3: 5)
Obedience saves. (Heb. 5: 9)

Yes, there are works of performance that do not save, these include works of the law (Gal 2: 16), works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) and our own works. (Gal. 3: 12; 2 Tim. 1: 9)

But works of faith do save. (Rom. 2: 6-10)
God bless.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [SUP][a][/SUP]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph. 2: 8,9)

Many people read these two verses and assume that all works are excluded from salvation including baptism. We have to be very careful with our assumptions as they will most often take us where are presuppositions have already gone. As we read the next verse we get quite a different slant to things.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2: 10)

As we read this verse we discover that was one of the reasons God created us- to do good works. Wow! Then as our assumptions kick in, some will say yes we are to obey, but our obedience has nothing to do with salvation, we obey to be obedient. Forget Heb. 5: 9, [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9) And the mind games go on until we are hopefully confronted with the truth:
Calling on the name of the Lord saves. (Acts 2: 21)
Repentance saves. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Confessing His name before men saves. (Rom. 10: 10)
Baptism saves. (Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
The washing of regeneration saves. (Titus 3: 5)
Obedience saves. (Heb. 5: 9)

Yes, there are works of performance that do not save, these include works of the law (Gal 2: 16), works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) and our own works. (Gal. 3: 12; 2 Tim. 1: 9)

But works of faith do save. (Rom. 2: 6-10)
God bless.
You are a false teacher if you are teaching that we do works that save us from our sin.

We cannot add to the finished complete work of Christ. It is His perfect righteousness that is imputed to us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Belief alone is not enough, one must also be baptized:

Mark 16:16 NKJV
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

It is impossible to be baptized without belief, without belief you only got wet, hence the concatenating "and" in Mark 16:16
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Can you provide some scripture please?
Do you believe water baptism is a NT ritual only?

The High priest was commanded to wash before entering the holy of holies to offer the sacrifice on the day of atonement.

Ritual washings were common in OT worship. Just what do you think John was teaching?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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We must be cleansed prior to coming before God, which we can do, since the curtain has been torn... water does not cleanse us. Only the blood of Christ does that :)
 
Mar 8, 2018
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Do you believe water baptism is a NT ritual only?

The High priest was commanded to wash before entering the holy of holies to offer the sacrifice on the day of atonement.

Ritual washings were common in OT worship. Just what do you think John was teaching?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Sorry but i don't see any scripture in this post. I am aware of the ritual cleansing for the high priest in the old testament. So are you saying that Jesus was baptized so that he could be cleansed before entering the Holiest of Holies?
 
Oct 6, 2017
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m...,

What is bothersome is, even if there was a smithering of suggestion in scriptures that baptism was not required (there is not) why is there so much effort to wail against baptism by the new age religion group?
I know hornetguy will not like me referring back to 1 Cor. 1:17 Because he does not see the full teaching expressed within this passage. Contextually speaking, Paul is rebuking the Corinthians concerning their doctrine of baptism and who baptized them, however, a close reading reveals Paul's attitude towards baptism.

We know that the power of God unto salvation is the gospel, (Romans 1:16), the gospel is what saves. If we read 1 Cor. 1:17 we get a clear understanding that Paul is making it abundantly clear that baptism is not a part of the gospel. 1 Cor, 1:17 " For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but preach the gospel": Literally removing baptism from the equation of salvation. So, I believe that 1Cor. 1:17 qualifies as a "smithering" that baptism is not required
 
Mar 8, 2018
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We know that the power of God unto salvation is the gospel, (Romans 1:16), the gospel is what saves. If we read 1 Cor. 1:17 we get a clear understanding that Paul is making it abundantly clear that baptism is not a part of the gospel. 1 Cor, 1:17 " For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but preach the gospel": Literally removing baptism from the equation of salvation. So, I believe that 1Cor. 1:17 qualifies as a "smithering" that baptism is not required
Wow. You completely took that out of context. Paul was not rebuking them for their doctrine of baptism. Paul was rebuking them for division among them. (see 1 Cor 1:12-13) Paul was absolutely not saying that baptism was not required. If it wasn't required, then Paul had no business commanding Cornelius and his household to be baptized in Acts 10. And he unnecessarily baptized Crispus and Gaius.