Amillennialism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
What if spiritual world is more real than physical world, not less?

In such a case we do not have to insist on fulfillement in the lesser, physical reality.

Its like a promise of a transportation, you await you will get a car and voila! you are given teleportation. Will you complain "wait, it must be a car"?
No, I won't be complaining if that is the way it happens. But I don't think that is what the Bible teaches.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
But the Lord is going to redeem ALL of creation, that includes the physical dimensions in which we dwell IMO.
Do you think that new creation of which we are first borns will be physical or, better said, will include also physical dimension?
 
Last edited:

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
No, I won't be complaining if that is the way it happens. But I don't think that is what the Bible teaches.
I have actually nothing against Christ reigning from Jerusalem for literal calendar 1000 years. If it will happen, it will happen.

I just do not see any need for such events. I think that all prophecies have deeper fulfillment.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
God will demonstrate how man even under ideal circumstances men will still rebel against righteousness. When the devil is released from the bottomless pit he will lead a rebellion against the Lamb.

The millennium is post tribulation. The final battle with Satan is at the end of the millennium from which follows the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

No reason to see this as figurative when God will perform it literally.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
Where are Abraham, Moses, Jacob and David now?

Dead in the grave or in heaven?

Jesus tells us in the Bible.
The bible says they are still in the grave.
-

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.


“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For
the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.
 
Last edited:

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
The bible says they are still in the grave.
-
That is where their bodies lie but the scripture also says that absent from the body present with the Lord.

We along with all of nature await the redemption of the body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
5,618
113
Do you think that new creation of which we are first borns will be physical or, better said, will include also physical dimension?
I think they will. Not particularly because I WANT there to be a physical realm but because I believe that's the Bible indicates. Do you remember Jesus after the resurrection? He ate food with them. They touched him. Mary thought he was the gardener. Of course there will be a spirit realm as well. One we can experience because we will be like him. I think the boundaries will gone and things will look very different to us then, with immortal eyes.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
That is where their bodies lie but the scripture also
says that absent from the body present with the Lord.

We along with all of nature await the redemption of the body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Not sure how someone could be in heaven when the bible says [no man]
has been there, except the one that come down from heaven.


So present or absent with the Lord ?
or earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:
-

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.


Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
 
Last edited:

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
Wanna discuss these scriptures?

It shows how the Bible uses 1000 years as figurative and symbolic.

it also shows that the promise of Abraham is not to all of Israel and the seeds but the Seed, Christ Jesus.

I see no need to reinvent the wheel or engage in fruitless debates with people who would rather lecture then actually engage in conversation.

Especially when ad hominem attacks are embedded in most of the responses.
Hello Ariel,

If I may, you are correct that there are symbols in Revelation, for that is only obvious. However, it also has literal meanings as well. It is the immediate context that should always be considered first as to whether or not something is symbolic or literal.

That said, one of the biggest on-going problems with expositors on the book of Revelation, is that they have been told that it is all symbolic and so they go into it immediately ignoring the literal and look for and apply a symbolic meaning or use the ones that men have already defined them as.

Here in Revelation 20:1-7, the words "a thousand years" is used consistently six times, which should alert the read that a literal thousand years is being conveyed by God. Also, there is nothing in the scripture that would prompt the reader to look for a symbolic meaning.

For example, those who symbolize everything in Revelation will go to Psalms 50:10 which says: "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." The meaning here in its context is that God owns all of the hills and all of the cattle on those hills and not just a thousand." However, the meaning here is specific to this scripture and should not be applied elsewhere. There is nothing in Rev.20:1-7 that would alert the reader to apply any other meaning other than a literal thousand years.

We also have scriptures that reveal a state of peace during this thousand years which has not existed since prior to the flood. Prey and predator animals and their young will lie down together and a young child will lead them. The lion will eat straw like the Ox. The longevity of the age of mankind will be extended like it was pre-flood, which states that "if a man dies at a hundred, he will be though to be a mere child." Below are those scriptures from the prophesies of Isaiah:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the Ox.

The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My point is that, the above scriptures support a literal thousand year period revealing that characteristics of that time.

A good rule of thumb when reading Revelation is:

If the plain or literal sense makes good sense, then don't see any other sense.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,529
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
But the Lord is going to redeem ALL of creation, that includes the physical dimensions in which we dwell IMO.
Exactly, He is going to intervene to save the world from itself. Mark 13:20: "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." :rolleyes:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
Hello Prove-all,

The bible says they are still in the grave.
-

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Allow me to paraphrase, "no one has ascended in to heaven in an immortal and glorified body except for the Son of Man." Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, is what he was saying. However, Jesus also said that believers would also be resurrected later just as He was. He's our guarantee of our coming resurrection.

Since we have scripture that states that at the time of death that the spirit departs to be in the presence of the Lord, and we have scripture which speaks about being asleep in the grave, they both can't be correct. Therefore, it is the spirit that departs from the body at the time of death, where the body is asleep in the grave. When the resurrection takes place, Jesus will bring with him the spirits of those who will have been in His presence and they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Those in Christ who are still living at the time of the resurrection, will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air.


(Phil.1:22-23, 2 Cor.5:6, John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-53)
 
Last edited:

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
He actually made two kinds of promises
The bible has many promises.

We have the birthright promises and the Scepture promise
We also have the promises given to King David.
-
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).
-

Do you know what the [birthright] promises are?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Not sure how someone could be in heaven when the bible says [no man]
has been there, except the one that come down from heaven.


So present or absent with the Lord ?
or earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:
-

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.


Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
That's a whole lot of confusion on your part.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
A

Ariel82

Guest


The bible says they are still in the grave.
-

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.


“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For
the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.
Mark 12:27 ►
New International Version
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

New Living Translation
So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error."

English Standard Version
He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

Jude 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Another question....how many heavens are there?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
Exactly, He is going to intervene to save the world from itself. Mark 13:20: "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." :rolleyes:
Hello Deade,

Actually, the meaning of the scripture is that, if that time went on any longer, no one would be left alive because of the events of God's wrath, not what mankind. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is what is going to be decimating the population of the earth and destroying everything.

For example, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earth's population will be killed, and that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments, ergo, if God's wrath was allowed to go on any longer, no one would survive. It is Jesus' return to the earth that ends God's wrath.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
The bible has many promises.

We have the birthright promises and the Scepture promise
We also have the promises given to King David.
-
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).
-

Do you know what the [birthright] promises are?

Please expand as long as you know the promise is to the Seed not seeds.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
Hello Prove-all,

Allow me to paraphrase, "no one has ascended in to heaven
in an immortal and glorified body except for the Son of Man."
You are adding words there , it says [no man]

Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, is what he was saying.
However, Jesus also said that believers would also be resurrected later
just as He was. He's our guarantee of our coming resurrection.
Yes at the second coming of Christ, we will be changed.
The giving of the Holy Spirit is our down payment.
-

As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness;
I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.

Verse above says when He awakes he will see Christ,
If he is in heaven now, why can he not see Christ there?
-

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob
and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Those people who believe the kingdom is on earth now,
why can they not see Abraham, or Isaac or Jacob today?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
The birthright promise did not pertain to [the one seed]
Whose birthright promise then?

Also no one claims this: "Those people who believe the kingdom is on earth now,"

The Kingdom of God is in Heaven and the saints are with God now because He is God of the living NOT dead.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
But the Lord is going to redeem ALL of creation, that includes the physical dimensions in which we dwell IMO.
Yes this Wil happen at the establishment of the New heaven and new earth