KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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All I've talked about are these verses:

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this dayhave I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have Ibegotten thee.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have Ibegotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

All of these verses are talking about the same thing. The Psalm is prophetic and Acts is the fulfillment.
You do realise that the verse you quote in Acts is not referring to the human birth of Jesus Christ but rather His resurrection don't you?
And, you do realise that the context of Ps 2:7 and Heb 1:5 is also not referring to the physical conception and birth of Jesus Christ as an infant to Mary do you not? At the very least it cannot just be referring to His physical conception and birth because the context makes it very clear that the reference is to an eternal being.

God is not the father of Jesus Christ in the sense that any man on earth is the father of his son.
When God is spoken of as Father, and the father of Jesus Christ, it is not a reference to sexual reproduction, however, it is clearly meant to indicate that the Son proceeds from the Father, that He finds His being from the Father.

You have correctly deduced that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are eternal. They are both separate beings.
Yet, they are also one, because they are part of the same Godhead.

To emphasise: the word begotten used in these verses does have a primary meaning related to physical descent (sexual reproduction), yet the object of the verb, is also clearly spoken of in eternal terms. So, the word "begotten" here, cannot merely refer to the physical creation of a descendant, since, by definition, that excludes the eternality of the object of the verb, in this case the Son, Jesus Christ.

The fact that Jesus Christ is (in human terms) referred to as a descendant of the Father is not a reference to His conception and birth as the son of Mary. He was already the Son of God for eternity. This is an anthropomorphism, an attempt to explain in human terms, a much larger concept that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, while most emphatically a separate being, is yet indistinguishably and indissolubly God in the same way as the Father and that those attributes flow from the Father. In a way that it is not physical (through DNA) Jesus Christ inherits His divinity from the Father.

Remember that you are the one that has highlighted the apparent contradiction of an eternal being, Jesus Christ, having a father/son relationship with God the Father that would require, by necessity, the son being a created being, if the literal meaning of the word "begotten", was applied. Psalms chapter 2 makes it clear that the Son is being referred to in an eternal sense, so any meaning applied to the verse must take that into account. The first chapter of Hebrews certainly makes the eternality (in the context of emphasising His divinity) of Jesus Christ crystal clear, the quotation of Ps 2:7 notwithstanding.

For Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, it means that He must, in some way have descended, and have an inheritance, from the Father. Clearly this cannot be mediated in terms of DNA and a physical creative event. How, exactly, this occurs, between two eternal spiritual beings is not exactly explained in Scripture. Instead, apparently contradictory juxtapositions are used to communicate the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God, Jesus Christ!
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The physical body of Jesus came out of Mary. The words begat or begotten in the verses in question very straightforwardly indicate that whatever essence put Jesus in Mary came out of God the Father.
In other words the physical body of Christ that came out of Mary was begotten of God. And this is what I've been saying all along.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
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In other words the physical body of Christ that came out of Mary was begotten of God. And this is what I've been saying all along.
And it seems rather obvious that you are using this very limited understanding to come to some very strange theological positions.
How exactly is the eternal Son of God any different to the Jesus Christ that walked on this earth for a few short decades?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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And it seems rather obvious that you are using this very limited understanding to come to some very strange theological positions.
How exactly is the eternal Son of God any different to the Jesus Christ that walked on this earth for a few short decades?
I'm out to eat right now, I'll comment on both your posts when you get back to my hotel.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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You do realise that the verse you quote in Acts is not referring to the human birth of Jesus Christ but rather His resurrection don't you?
And, you do realise that the context of Ps 2:7 and Heb 1:5 is also not referring to the physical conception and birth of Jesus Christ as an infant to Mary do you not? At the very least it cannot just be referring to His physical conception and birth because the context makes it very clear that the reference is to an eternal being.

God is not the father of Jesus Christ in the sense that any man on earth is the father of his son.
When God is spoken of as Father, and the father of Jesus Christ, it is not a reference to sexual reproduction, however, it is clearly meant to indicate that the Son proceeds from the Father, that He finds His being from the Father.

You have correctly deduced that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are eternal. They are both separate beings.
Yet, they are also one, because they are part of the same Godhead.

To emphasise: the word begotten used in these verses does have a primary meaning related to physical descent (sexual reproduction), yet the object of the verb, is also clearly spoken of in eternal terms. So, the word "begotten" here, cannot merely refer to the physical creation of a descendant, since, by definition, that excludes the eternality of the object of the verb, in this case the Son, Jesus Christ.

The fact that Jesus Christ is (in human terms) referred to as a descendant of the Father is not a reference to His conception and birth as the son of Mary. He was already the Son of God for eternity. This is an anthropomorphism, an attempt to explain in human terms, a much larger concept that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, while most emphatically a separate being, is yet indistinguishably and indissolubly God in the same way as the Father and that those attributes flow from the Father. In a way that it is not physical (through DNA) Jesus Christ inherits His divinity from the Father.

Remember that you are the one that has highlighted the apparent contradiction of an eternal being, Jesus Christ, having a father/son relationship with God the Father that would require, by necessity, the son being a created being, if the literal meaning of the word "begotten", was applied. Psalms chapter 2 makes it clear that the Son is being referred to in an eternal sense, so any meaning applied to the verse must take that into account. The first chapter of Hebrews certainly makes the eternality (in the context of emphasising His divinity) of Jesus Christ crystal clear, the quotation of Ps 2:7 notwithstanding.

For Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, it means that He must, in some way have descended, and have an inheritance, from the Father. Clearly this cannot be mediated in terms of DNA and a physical creative event. How, exactly, this occurs, between two eternal spiritual beings is not exactly explained in Scripture. Instead, apparently contradictory juxtapositions are used to communicate the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God, Jesus Christ!

Ac 1:33, Ps 2:7 and Heb 1:5 Can all be understood as you suggest; however Luke 1:30-35
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV
unequivocally refers to Jesus Physical Birth.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Ac 1:33, Ps 2:7 and Heb 1:5 Can all be understood as you suggest; however Luke 1:30-35
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV
unequivocally refers to Jesus Physical Birth.
No problem with this - Jesus Christ was physically born, and the process was as outlined in these quoted verses.
However, obviously, this in no way, detracts from either the divinity nor eternality of Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

And, even more obviously, this does not distinguish the Jesus Christ who walked on this planet as being different from the eternal Son of God. They are in fact the same.

Marc, just that you know for certain, I am not denying the humanity of Jesus Christ any more than I am denying the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I certainly do not deny the divinity of Christ, and neither do I deny His humanity.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You do realise that the verse you quote in Acts is not referring to the human birth of Jesus Christ but rather His resurrection don't you?
I don't think you read the verse from the KJV. The KJV says God raised up Jesus AGAIN.

Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus the 1) only BEGOTTEN son, 2) Jesus the FIRSTBORN from the dead.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in allthings he might have the preeminence.

You can count on the KJV getting it right every time!
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
I don't think you read the verse from the KJV. The KJV says God raised up Jesus AGAIN.

Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus the 1) only BEGOTTEN son, 2) Jesus the FIRSTBORN from the dead.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in allthings he might have the preeminence.

You can count on the KJV getting it right every time!
No, actually I did read it from the KJV, not that it makes any difference.
You yourself have capitalised the word AGAIN - wake up, that is the reference to the resurrection...
 
Nov 23, 2013
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No, actually I did read it from the KJV, not that it makes any difference.
You yourself have capitalised the word AGAIN - wake up, that is the reference to the resurrection...
Raised up Jesus AGAIN... how many times has Jesus raised from the dead?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You do realise that the verse you quote in Acts is not referring to the human birth of Jesus Christ but rather His resurrection don't you?
And, you do realise that the context of Ps 2:7 and Heb 1:5 is also not referring to the physical conception and birth of Jesus Christ as an infant to Mary do you not? At the very least it cannot just be referring to His physical conception and birth because the context makes it very clear that the reference is to an eternal being.

God is not the father of Jesus Christ in the sense that any man on earth is the father of his son.
When God is spoken of as Father, and the father of Jesus Christ, it is not a reference to sexual reproduction, however, it is clearly meant to indicate that the Son proceeds from the Father, that He finds His being from the Father.

You have correctly deduced that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are eternal. They are both separate beings.
Yet, they are also one, because they are part of the same Godhead.

To emphasise: the word begotten used in these verses does have a primary meaning related to physical descent (sexual reproduction), yet the object of the verb, is also clearly spoken of in eternal terms. So, the word "begotten" here, cannot merely refer to the physical creation of a descendant, since, by definition, that excludes the eternality of the object of the verb, in this case the Son, Jesus Christ.

The fact that Jesus Christ is (in human terms) referred to as a descendant of the Father is not a reference to His conception and birth as the son of Mary. He was already the Son of God for eternity. This is an anthropomorphism, an attempt to explain in human terms, a much larger concept that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, while most emphatically a separate being, is yet indistinguishably and indissolubly God in the same way as the Father and that those attributes flow from the Father. In a way that it is not physical (through DNA) Jesus Christ inherits His divinity from the Father.

Remember that you are the one that has highlighted the apparent contradiction of an eternal being, Jesus Christ, having a father/son relationship with God the Father that would require, by necessity, the son being a created being, if the literal meaning of the word "begotten", was applied. Psalms chapter 2 makes it clear that the Son is being referred to in an eternal sense, so any meaning applied to the verse must take that into account. The first chapter of Hebrews certainly makes the eternality (in the context of emphasising His divinity) of Jesus Christ crystal clear, the quotation of Ps 2:7 notwithstanding.

For Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, it means that He must, in some way have descended, and have an inheritance, from the Father. Clearly this cannot be mediated in terms of DNA and a physical creative event. How, exactly, this occurs, between two eternal spiritual beings is not exactly explained in Scripture. Instead, apparently contradictory juxtapositions are used to communicate the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God, Jesus Christ!
Do you think Jesus the HUMAN man existed before God conceived him in Mary?
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Raised up Jesus AGAIN... how many times has Jesus raised from the dead?
You are trying to read language as if it was a reflexive and translative mathematical equation.
Language does not work that way.
Again, you are falling into the trap of trying to interpret everything in a woodenly mechanically literal sense even when the context does not indicate that is appropriate.

Anyway, who said any prior reference to the word raise must mean resurrection.
Certainly not I!
What I was saying, and it is correct, is that the reference in Acts, is to the resurrection...
Try reading the whole passage containing a verse instead of focusing in on one verse as if it explains everything.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You are trying to read language as if it was a reflexive and translative mathematical equation.
Language does not work that way.
Again, you are falling into the trap of trying to interpret everything in a woodenly mechanically literal sense even when the context does not indicate that is appropriate.

Anyway, who said any prior reference to the word raise must mean resurrection.
Certainly not I!
What I was saying, and it is correct, is that the reference in Acts, is to the resurrection...
Try reading the whole passage containing a verse instead of focusing in on one verse as if it explains everything.
Raised again means exactly what it says it means - raised twice. Raised the first time as in being brought into existence by the Father in birth and raised the second time as in raised from the dead. Seriously, do you deny that this statement is true?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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No problem with this - Jesus Christ was physically born, and the process was as outlined in these quoted verses.
However, obviously, this in no way, detracts from either the divinity nor eternality of Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

And, even more obviously, this does not distinguish the Jesus Christ who walked on this planet as being different from the eternal Son of God. They are in fact the same.

Marc, just that you know for certain, I am not denying the humanity of Jesus Christ any more than I am denying the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I certainly do not deny the divinity of Christ, and neither do I deny His humanity.
I certainly Agree. I never sought to argue the point. I just wanted to show that KJV 1611 was not totally amiss on this.

I don't agree with his KJVO stance but I respect him as an honest sincere Christian brother.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Raised again means exactly what it says it means - raised twice. Raised the first time as in being brought into existence by the Father in birth and raised the second time as in raised from the dead. Seriously, do you deny that this statement is true?
You asked me how many times times Jesus was raised from the dead, remember????

My reply was that the word raised did not necessarily mean the same same thing if informed by the word again, as in the phrase, "raised again", and now you have put two meanings to the word raise.
I would say that the confusion is all yours.

So, no, seriously, I do not deny the fact that the word/phrase raise (again) in this context is referring to different things because I was the one who highlighted it in the first place for your attention!!!
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You asked me how many times times Jesus was raised from the dead, remember????

My reply was that the word raised did not necessarily mean the same same thing if informed by the word again, as in the phrase, "raised again", and now you have put two meanings to the word raise.
I would say that the confusion is all yours.

So, no, seriously, I do not deny the fact that the word/phrase raise (again) in this context is referring to different things because I was the one who highlighted it in the first place for your attention!!!
Jesus was begotten in birth and he was begotten from death... that's exactly what Hebrews 1:5 is talking about.

Edit: Jesus WAS NOT begotten of the Father some time in eternity past. He did ooze out God some time in eternity past, he did not "come out" of God in eternity past.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
Raised up Jesus AGAIN... how many times has Jesus raised from the dead?

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


I think you may have missed a play on words here.

raised the first time elevated in stature and authority and finally raised up on a cross to die.

raised again to the Lordship and divinity He set aside when He was born

 
Nov 23, 2013
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Why on earth (or in heaven) would you think that I would think that?????
I didn't think you would think that, I trying to get you to see that the human being Jesus was begotten of the Father, he was begotten of the Father in his physical birth, not in eternity past.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Jesus was begotten in birth and he was begotten from death... that's exactly what Hebrews 1:5 is talking about.

Edit: Jesus WAS NOT begotten of the Father some time in eternity past. He did ooze out God some time in eternity past, he did not "come out" of God in eternity past.
No idea what your edit is supposed to mean...If he "oozed" (your choice of words) out of God, how is that different from "come out" of God???????

As for the first bit: why not try to explain what you think that means theologically. Up until now you are merely stirring the alphabet soup to no actual conclusion...
 
Nov 23, 2013
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33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


I think you may have missed a play on words here.

raised the first time elevated in stature and authority and finally raised up on a cross to die.

raised again to the Lordship and divinity He set aside when He was born

There's no play on words MarcR. To bring Jesus into existence is to raise him up into existence isn't it?