Amillennialism

[Ariel82]

The question was asked because Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed. It HAPPENED within the generation that Jesus lived.

You assume that the end of the age and Jesus return is all tied into the first question. However I would propose we look at all three chapters and see what they include and what they exclude....it is kind of telling.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The question was asked because Jesus prophesied that the temple would be destroyed. It HAPPENED within the generation that Jesus lived.

You assume that the end of the age and Jesus return is all tied into the first question. However I would propose we look at all three chapters and see what they include and what they exclude....it is kind of telling.

No, Jesus told them prior to their question that the temple would be destroyed, which led them to ask him what the signs of His coming would be and the end of the age. Regarding Jesus answer He spoke no more about the destruction of the temple, as He had already told them about that event. The focus was on the signs leading up to the end of the age, and as I pointed out, none of those signs have taken place and those signs is what identifies "this generation" that will not pass away until all of those events take place. In addition to this, we have scripture clearing stating that there will be a literal thousand year period after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[Ariel82]

Eisegesis...

 

[Ariel82]

Matthew 24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[Ariel82]

Mark 13 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
13 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”

2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 6 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many. 7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles.[a] These are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate[c] what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The Great Tribulation
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[d] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[e] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree
28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it[f] is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”

 

[Ariel82]

Luke 21

5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[c] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[Ariel82]

Common thread 1: Jesus says the temple will be destroyed...
****
Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
****
2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
*****
“These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

 

[Ariel82]

Common thread 2: Jesus disciples ask WHEN the temples will be destroyed...only ONE adds the two questions of when Jesus will return and when the end of the age will happen....(end of age of the Old covenant and establishment of the New Covenant ....NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND REPLACEMENT WITH THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH....last age ended with the flood)

*****

the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
****
, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
****
“Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Common thread 2: Jesus disciples ask WHEN the temples will be destroyed...only ONE adds the two questions of when Jesus will return and when the end of the age will happen....(end of age of the Old covenant and establishment of the New Covenant ....NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND REPLACEMENT WITH THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH....last age ended with the flood)

*****

the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
****
, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
****
“Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Ariel, you argument is moot! A generation is no more than 70 years. The temple was destroyed almost 2000 years ago. In addition, you still have no fulfillment of all the events that I listed.

"This generation" is the one where all of those signs take place. If the destruction of the temple was the end of the age, then Jesus would have already returned to the earth and the millennial period would already be completed and we would currently be living in the new heaven, new earth and the new Jerusalem.

Amillennialism shouldn't even be an issue, because scripture is clear that there will indeed be a literal thousand year reign of Christ which follows after God's wrath and Jesus' return to the earth. The only way that one can make Amillennialism work is to spiritualize/allegorize those events.

 

[Ariel82]

You make assumptions and don't listen.

Do you even know what I refer to with these words?

end of age of the Old covenant and establishment of the New Covenant ....NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND REPLACEMENT WITH THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH....last age ended with the flood)

 

[Ariel82]

Have you examined how the world changed before and after the flood?

 

[Ahwatukee]

You make assumptions and don't listen.

Do you even know what I refer to with these words?

end of age of the Old covenant and establishment of the New Covenant ....NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND REPLACEMENT WITH THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH....last age ended with the flood)

Yes, I do know what it means. I was studying this before you were born. That end of the age is the Lord's physical, visual, return to the earth to establish his millennial kingdom on this present earth. This is what takes place after those signs that Jesus mentioned, of which you no fulfillment of. You have no signs and you have no literal return of Jesus.

"And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven."

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen." - Rev.1:7

The above is the end of the age. No one has seen the Lord and we have no record of every eye seeing him returning to the earth. The end of the age is the return of Christ and the end of all human government and the establishment of His millennial kingdom. The end of the age IS NOT " the Old covenant and establishment of the New Covenant."

The end of the age is revealed in Daniel 2:31-46 as illustrated by Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue which represents all of the world ruling kingdoms, with the ten toed kingdom of partly baked clay and iron, being the last. The Rock (Jesus) which is cut out of the mountain without human hands, falls on the feet of the statue (human government) smashing it to pieces with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which represents the end of human government. The Rock/Jesus then becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the entire earth, which is referring to his millennial kingdom.

We are currently headed for the end of the age, as the stage is being set. The following is the order of events:

* You are here

* The Lord will appear and gather His church

* The antichrist will establish his seven year covenant

* God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will take place throughout the seven years

* The Lord will return to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out

* The beast and false prophet will be captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive

* Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss during Christ's literal thousand year reign

* Millennial kingdom

* Satan released at the end of that literal thousand years for one last rebellion

* Satan thrown into the lake of fire

* Great white throne judgment

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem, eternity ---------------------------->

Amillennialism, along with preterism, is a false teaching

 

[RexCA]

St. Jerome was premil. Augustine was amil. he was paid by the emperor. A coming king that would be the King of Kings would be frowned on by the emperor.

I'm aware that some of the church fathers were premillennialists however the overwhelming majority especially post Origen were amillennialists. Beyond that even many of the fathers such as St. Justin Martyr that might be considered premillennialists took a more amillennialist slant as to how the millennium was to be interpreted so it was not the same sort of premillennialism present in some evangelical circles on the other hand postmillennialism is totally absent from the church fathers.

 

[Ariel82]

Yep...not listening at all.

 

[Ariel82]

At the end of an age spiritual and often physical laws are changed.

Example:

Garden of eden, no rain, just mist watering plants, no work to plant, weed or water. just reach out and eat fruit from trees, no death or disease...(prophecy of Jesus in Genesis 3 about the Seed that crushes the head of the serpent and God clothing Adam and Eve with animal skins)

Preflood: animal sacrifice (abel) as foreshadowing of Jesus blood shed for our sin, clean and unclean animals, some say it never rained before the flood.

*Note: God does not give animals to humans as food until AFTER the flood.

Pre-fall of tower of Babel: people knew and spoke ONE language, Panera (one big land mass)

Skip ahead to Jesus and His speech..,.

The spiritual laws and I believe some physical ones were changed upon Jesus ascension into heaven and the fulfillment of prophecies.

One of which is the veil of the temple was torn. The establishment of the New Covenant which happened with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus told the woman at the well that God sought people to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

IN THIS AGE, God does not live in temples made with stone but within our hearts via the Holy spirit.,,,our bodies are His temple.

In the past He walked among Adam and Eve in the garden, he lived in the tabernacle during Moses time, he dwelled in Solomon's temple in the Hoiy of holies.....NOW HE LIVES IN OUR HEARTS.

The FUTURE AGE TO COME , He will dwell among us in the Heavenly Jerusalem that descend out of the NEW Heaven to the NEW EARTH. We will be in our resurrected bodies that will be made totally different than these current ones....

Just as our hearts were recreated when we were born again by the Holy spirit....we do not seek the things of this world but to do and follow God's will and love others as He loves us.

 

[prove-all]

One of His most important parables is recorded in the 19th chapter of Luke:
"… he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because
they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear” (Luke 19:11).


Then He gave the parable of the nobleman going to a far country to receive for himself
a kingdom and to return—the picture of Christ’s ascension to heaven, where the coronation
ceremony shall take place, and His return to Earth to rule all nations, as King of kings and
Lord of lords, in all the supreme power and glory of the great God.

 

[Ariel82]

One of His most important parables is recorded in the 19th chapter of Luke:
"… he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because
they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear” (Luke 19:11).


Then He gave the parable of the nobleman going to a far country to receive for himself
a kingdom and to return—the picture of Christ’s ascension to heaven, where the coronation
ceremony shall take place, and His return to Earth to rule all nations, as King of kings and
Lord of lords, in all the supreme power and glory of the great God.

Yes...can you show it's during this supposed 1000 literal years on Earth and not during the New Heaven and New Earth reign of Jesus?

Revelation 20 shows the Judgement of nations AFTER the 1000 years are mentioned....what is happening during the 1000 years?

People assume it will be peaceful because Satan is supposedly bound during that time...however humanity doesn't need Satan to sin....folks do just fine being selfish without outside temptation....

What we need is God to teach us to do good. We need God to place in us clean hearts.

 

[prove-all]

Yes...can you show it's during this supposed 1000 literal years on Earth and not during the New Heaven and New Earth reign of Jesus?

After the new heaven and new earth, there will be no more mortals,
but during the mill. , egypt will be punished with no rain.

just one off the top of my head.

 

[Ariel82]

After the new heaven and new earth, there will be no more mortals,
but during the mill. , egypt will be punished with no rain.

just one off the top of my head.

Judgement day...,folks get tossed into the fire...

Egypt and no rain isn't in Rev 20.

Therefore you must be assuming that another prophecy talks about 1000 years....,

 

[prove-all]

Egypt and no rain isn't in Rev 20.

So, its in his word.

the rainbow covenent is not in rev. also, are you covered under it ?