Not By Works
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J
Exactly Jesus will not forsake you but the world will,there are those we may "trust" but Jesus comes first and foremost,it might as well be that one whom follows and believes upon Jesus "walks with Jesus"alone for he is the only one aside from God and the holy spirit that one can "actually trust whole heartedly".
Not arguing the importance of doctrine: There can be no salvation without at least a basic understanding of Christian doctrine: that is - one must know that Jesus is God and that He died on the cross, etc.
But character is also very important and critical: When a person is saved there will be a change in character. But just because a person appears "meek" does not make them a Christian, either.
But there are many who have a "correct doctrine", but are not saved. Their character may be atrocious.
I would argue that character is just as critical, or perhaps more critical, in determining the new birth than is doctrine.
Having said that, only God determines who is born again or not: so what am I trying to say! LOL!
But character is also very important and critical: When a person is saved there will be a change in character. But just because a person appears "meek" does not make them a Christian, either.
But there are many who have a "correct doctrine", but are not saved. Their character may be atrocious.
I would argue that character is just as critical, or perhaps more critical, in determining the new birth than is doctrine.
Having said that, only God determines who is born again or not: so what am I trying to say! LOL!
Hi Stunned,
What you are talking about is not anger but pride.
If someone is rude to you, the rudeness hurts ones pride that says I should be respected
but this person is not giving me respect, and I am hurt, to which I respond in anger.
So the problem is not the anger, but the pride that got hurt, and the desire to not turn the
other cheek and to resist the evil person. If you learn the meaning of this, then anger will
not be such a big issue for you.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus.
By the way, in God I have good reason to be angry at non-believers, because they desire to
kill my Lord, and will desire to kill me. But because sin drives their life, my anger disappears
into forgiveness and love. How can I be angry at something they cannot control and are slaves
to? And what pride do I have that I need to defend, because in Christ I am everything and to the
world nothing. I do not hold it against them that they hate the light and the love of God, it is in
their nature to be like this.
What you are talking about is not anger but pride.
If someone is rude to you, the rudeness hurts ones pride that says I should be respected
but this person is not giving me respect, and I am hurt, to which I respond in anger.
So the problem is not the anger, but the pride that got hurt, and the desire to not turn the
other cheek and to resist the evil person. If you learn the meaning of this, then anger will
not be such a big issue for you.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus.
By the way, in God I have good reason to be angry at non-believers, because they desire to
kill my Lord, and will desire to kill me. But because sin drives their life, my anger disappears
into forgiveness and love. How can I be angry at something they cannot control and are slaves
to? And what pride do I have that I need to defend, because in Christ I am everything and to the
world nothing. I do not hold it against them that they hate the light and the love of God, it is in
their nature to be like this.
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I hear you Ben , and after hearing a sermon on faith without works is dead , I can understand this tonight...
You see faith without works is dead...A few days ago I was in the middle of having a heart surgery , but due to an untold problem they retracted and I will have surgery at a latter date...Now while this was all before me I was resting and trusting in God , I was reading Scripture and speaking it out loud over my life , " Your will be done Father , whatever your will "...So in these months building up to my op , I was living in my faith, my faith was alive not dead , and what happened in the middle of my surgery was shown a problem the doctors never saw , so they stopped , withdrew and have made another date so they can sort two problems in one , my living faith got me through it...
...
Now tonight my faith was dead , why , because I turned to alcohol , I drank through my nerves , I drank because of the aftermath of what I went through these past days , I put my faith in drink to calm my self , that is dead faith , and now I have repented...James is saying our faith is dead when we put our faith into dead works , now my faith is alive in Christ where it should of been tonight , not in my self looking beyond Christ , anything we put our faith in is dead unless it is in Christ Jesus , so my faith in myself tonight is dead , but thank God I am in Christ Jesus who has forgiven me , my faith in my own works tonight was dead , but now as I type , I am typing through faith in my LORD Jesus Christ , my faith is now alive Praise God \/xox...
You see faith without works is dead...A few days ago I was in the middle of having a heart surgery , but due to an untold problem they retracted and I will have surgery at a latter date...Now while this was all before me I was resting and trusting in God , I was reading Scripture and speaking it out loud over my life , " Your will be done Father , whatever your will "...So in these months building up to my op , I was living in my faith, my faith was alive not dead , and what happened in the middle of my surgery was shown a problem the doctors never saw , so they stopped , withdrew and have made another date so they can sort two problems in one , my living faith got me through it...
...Now tonight my faith was dead , why
, because I turned to alcohol , I drank through my nerves , I drank because of the aftermath of what I went through these past days , I put my faith in drink to calm my self , that is dead faith , and now I have repented...James is saying our faith is dead when we put our faith into dead works , now my faith is alive in Christ where it should of been tonight , not in my self looking beyond Christ , anything we put our faith in is dead unless it is in Christ Jesus , so my faith in myself tonight is dead , but thank God I am in Christ Jesus who has forgiven me , my faith in my own works tonight was dead , but now as I type , I am typing through faith in my LORD Jesus Christ , my faith is now alive Praise God \/xox...
Okay, I give up, what Translation are you using. I find that Both of them verses are very interesting in how they are worded. Both of those verses are excellent verses for the Once Saved, Always Saved position. Especially the Heb. 5:9 verse. It appears to be a parallel to this one:
Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
And I notice that they called HIM the Causer. THAT is quite appropriate.
Since you claim that Jesus is your friend and you know that He is the one whom God spoke through in the last days(hebrews 1:1-2) and whom James witnessed and testified together with the other apostles who wrote the books of the NT. Do you now believe that Jesus commanded them to teach that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? (james 2:14-26)
Do you believe that a DEAD FAITH cannot save?
That those who are teaching that OBEDIENCE to God's commandments which even them considers as WORKS( and it's true), cannot save them, are rejecting God?
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Do you love your friend Jesus?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Do you do what your Lord says?
Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Do you believe that a DEAD FAITH cannot save?
That those who are teaching that OBEDIENCE to God's commandments which even them considers as WORKS( and it's true), cannot save them, are rejecting God?
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Do you love your friend Jesus?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Do you do what your Lord says?
Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
This is true... and even though Jesus said that Judas was "unclean" and called him a son of perdition (doomed to destruction), there are still those who insist that Judas was saved (because he committed suicide! ).
).Jesus ( being God ) knew , it had to come to pass...xox...[/FONT]
James 4:4-12 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Originally Posted by ElAmor
I'm just wondering how hard it is for you to either say YES or NO to confirm or negate something. So i'll just take this as a NO which means that YOU DISAGREE that a DEAD FAITH cannot save and that Faith without works is DEAD.which brings me to the conclusion that you’re really just trying to divide instead of edifying the church. (jude 1:18-19, james 2:22, romans 14:19)
Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Rejecting Scriptures that do not fit and go against your FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE is rejection and trampling under foot of God’s WORD which is the SPIRIT ( john 1:1-3 & 14, 6:63, hebrews 10:26-29, 2 timothy 3:16-17, mark 7:6-13)
Matthew 12:31-37 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. YOU BROOD OF VIPERS, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED”
Apostle James words;
... As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
... should be received as God’s own words since they were inspired and led by the Holy Spirit and therefore wrote what they have heard and understood from Christs teachings.
Our Lord Jesus said;
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?(luke 6:46)
...Who are the ones calling Jesus as their Lord and yet do not do what He says? Are they not those who CLAIM to have Faith but one which is DEAD.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
...So what did Jesus say to them?
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
...And what would he say to them who have FAITH WITHOUT WORKS which is a DEAD FAITH that cannot save?
Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
...BECAUSE...
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you EVILDOERS.’
...And why are they called EVILDOERS?
1 John 2:3-4 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
dcon’s reply
Assume what you want to assume....I could care less what you think or your view.....
ElAmor
I hope that everyone can notice that when the attitude or behaviour becomes like this in a Christian forum, there will be no edification but there will always be strife, disorder and arguments leading to divisions instead of unity in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
Jude 1:19-25 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
I'm just wondering how hard it is for you to either say YES or NO to confirm or negate something. So i'll just take this as a NO which means that YOU DISAGREE that a DEAD FAITH cannot save and that Faith without works is DEAD.which brings me to the conclusion that you’re really just trying to divide instead of edifying the church. (jude 1:18-19, james 2:22, romans 14:19)
Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Rejecting Scriptures that do not fit and go against your FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE is rejection and trampling under foot of God’s WORD which is the SPIRIT ( john 1:1-3 & 14, 6:63, hebrews 10:26-29, 2 timothy 3:16-17, mark 7:6-13)
Matthew 12:31-37 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. YOU BROOD OF VIPERS, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED”
Apostle James words;
... As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
... should be received as God’s own words since they were inspired and led by the Holy Spirit and therefore wrote what they have heard and understood from Christs teachings.
Our Lord Jesus said;
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?(luke 6:46)
...Who are the ones calling Jesus as their Lord and yet do not do what He says? Are they not those who CLAIM to have Faith but one which is DEAD.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
...So what did Jesus say to them?
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
...And what would he say to them who have FAITH WITHOUT WORKS which is a DEAD FAITH that cannot save?
Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But IF YOU DO NOT WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
...BECAUSE...
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you EVILDOERS.’
...And why are they called EVILDOERS?
1 John 2:3-4 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
dcon’s reply
Assume what you want to assume....I could care less what you think or your view.....
ElAmor
I hope that everyone can notice that when the attitude or behaviour becomes like this in a Christian forum, there will be no edification but there will always be strife, disorder and arguments leading to divisions instead of unity in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
Jude 1:19-25 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
John 12:42-50 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God. Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
Matthew 13:11-15 He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Hi P4T...I have always had a soft heart towards people , before I was saved I was so gullible , took peoples smiles for truth , words for truth , did not know what deceived meant , and still gave people the benefit of the doubt , but now that I am saved , I will fight for the gospel , and I just see Ben with a very tender heart towards our Lord , he speaks with love in his post , one caught me that he posted , not sure how to bring it up but it was genuine , Ii can see what he is saying even though others do not...
When I first came in this thread I was attacked through my lack of knowledge , I was told I was a worker before faith , I had no clue what that meant , I was hurt by some comments , my post was was hung up for all to see , I was devestated , i was crying , I felt awful , and although these posters were right about my views , they handled it like bullies , and sometimes this still come accross instead of a gentle spirit that God truly loves...
Now I know there are a good few that come in here with their false gospel , and I am all for those bigger brothers and sisters of mine Christ that swing their sword \o/ , but sometimes people need a gentle conversation to lead them to the truth like I needed , and maybe I am just thinking Ben is one of them , I dont know , my heart has led me many times on the wrong path , Ii hope I am not wrong about Ben...xox...
, but now that I am saved , I will fight for the gospel , and I just see Ben with a very tender heart towards our Lord , he speaks with love in his post , one caught me that he posted , not sure how to bring it up but it was genuine , Ii can see what he is saying even though others do not...When I first came in this thread I was attacked through my lack of knowledge , I was told I was a worker before faith , I had no clue what that meant , I was hurt by some comments , my post was was hung up for all to see , I was devestated , i was crying , I felt awful , and although these posters were right about my views , they handled it like bullies , and sometimes this still come accross instead of a gentle spirit that God truly loves...
Now I know there are a good few that come in here with their false gospel , and I am all for those bigger brothers and sisters of mine Christ that swing their sword \o/ , but sometimes people need a gentle conversation to lead them to the truth like I needed , and maybe I am just thinking Ben is one of them , I dont know , my heart has led me many times on the wrong path , Ii hope I am not wrong about Ben...xox...