Not By Works
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If you read it with the attitude of: I don't understand how this can be true and also THAT can be true but God is not a liar, and you ask for the Spirits help to see it, He begins to reconcile the things that seem opposed to each other. But you have to go in with the attitude that it ALL is true, even if you can't piece it together.
The Word (Jesus) wore a seamless garment. They would have ruined it by cutting it up so they had to draw lots for who would get it. The bible is also a seamless garment in this way. You can't chop it into pieces, it has to stay in one piece or it is ruined. You can't chop out some pieces and leave others. It's seamless, continuous, one piece.
Hi Stunned,
You believe we have eternal security and yet you believe also God will not forgive if we do
not forgive.
What is unmovable is your belief in eternal security. If anything God has never provided this
only loyalty to those who walk in His ways. Your understanding of a phrase is locked into one
interpretation. If you want to know the truth, you have to see other interpretations as well.
I wonder if you ever loved and listened to the pharisees. They were good people, aspiring to
following God, but trapped by human nature and failure. Once you accept failure and compromise
along with the show, it corrupts you, empties out ones heart, makes greed and self-indulgence take
over. Jesus saw straight through them, and spoke to their hearts, saying simply they needed to
purify their hearts. But they claimed they were guaranteed salvation because they were Abrahams
children.
So to hear security on exactly the same basis for me becomes a joke.
Jesus speaks always to heart realities. If you do not forgive, one does not know
Gods forgiveness. God defines Himself through His words and His actions.
Now if people understand they find it impossible to forgive somebody then that is
the problem not Gods clear words. Eternity is about letting go of ones rights, or
blaming others for their sinful behavior forgetting we are all the same.
Jesus asks us to walk in the light, to know His healing and truth.
If one has a pure heart, truth becomes obvious, God and his message clear.
You believe we have eternal security and yet you believe also God will not forgive if we do
not forgive.
What is unmovable is your belief in eternal security. If anything God has never provided this
only loyalty to those who walk in His ways. Your understanding of a phrase is locked into one
interpretation. If you want to know the truth, you have to see other interpretations as well.
I wonder if you ever loved and listened to the pharisees. They were good people, aspiring to
following God, but trapped by human nature and failure. Once you accept failure and compromise
along with the show, it corrupts you, empties out ones heart, makes greed and self-indulgence take
over. Jesus saw straight through them, and spoke to their hearts, saying simply they needed to
purify their hearts. But they claimed they were guaranteed salvation because they were Abrahams
children.
So to hear security on exactly the same basis for me becomes a joke.
Jesus speaks always to heart realities. If you do not forgive, one does not know
Gods forgiveness. God defines Himself through His words and His actions.
Now if people understand they find it impossible to forgive somebody then that is
the problem not Gods clear words. Eternity is about letting go of ones rights, or
blaming others for their sinful behavior forgetting we are all the same.
Jesus asks us to walk in the light, to know His healing and truth.
If one has a pure heart, truth becomes obvious, God and his message clear.
You are defining yourself as a Calvinist with that answer. Armenians believe the opposite.
Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
There is only one unforgivable sin. Rejecting Jesus as your savior Keep in mind that breaking any of the 613 rules of the law condemns the person to death. Accepting Jesus as your savior removes the penalty for ALL sins. Paul writes about the law of sin living in us that causes us to sin in spite of our desire to do only good.
This is the gospel (good news) message.
This is the gospel (good news) message.
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It really IS reconcileable, peter. And if any man wants to know and is willing to accept both of these verses as true because God said them, and he is willing to put down his warring, he can know them. He has to start with the firm assertion that they are both true. He cannot start with the assertion that one is true and the other is not.
When a person formulates what the Bible teaches on an issue ALL verses on the subject must be analyzed in their context. A resource to find all verses is a book like Louis Berkhofs Systematic Theology full version. It and other similar works list all verses on a subject and then analyzes them. The issue is all authors of these works have a bias due to their view of theology.
Yes! I have seen the biases.
One man insists that if eternal security is true, (and the bible does say it) then it cannot be true that if I don't forgive I won't be forgiven.
Another man says that if it is true I will not be forgiven if I don't forgive (and the bible does say it,) then it cannot be true that there is eternal security.
BOTH men have a bias. BOTH men are solving the apparent contradiction by doing away with some of the word of God. That will never work.
One man insists that if eternal security is true, (and the bible does say it) then it cannot be true that if I don't forgive I won't be forgiven.
Another man says that if it is true I will not be forgiven if I don't forgive (and the bible does say it,) then it cannot be true that there is eternal security.
BOTH men have a bias. BOTH men are solving the apparent contradiction by doing away with some of the word of God. That will never work.
God will never leave or forsake us if we stay true to Him.
God forgives us if we let go and forgive others.
This is the Lord telling us what is real.
Men miss-understand and always desire compromise.
They are speaking the truth as far as they understand it.
It does not make it true. The way you know whether it is true is through
the life examples of God working with others. We are not here to get an
intellectual assent, the Lord desires that we know Him and walk in His ways.
The words I am writing here are not because I worked out some way through
Gods words, they are Gods words and my life.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen
God forgives us if we let go and forgive others.
This is the Lord telling us what is real.
Men miss-understand and always desire compromise.
They are speaking the truth as far as they understand it.
It does not make it true. The way you know whether it is true is through
the life examples of God working with others. We are not here to get an
intellectual assent, the Lord desires that we know Him and walk in His ways.
The words I am writing here are not because I worked out some way through
Gods words, they are Gods words and my life.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen
Men on BOTH sides of the argument compromise. You yourself have had a hard time believing that anger in your heart at another is murder, even though Jesus said it. (I'm not sure where you currently are in your understanding of it). But in the past, you could not believe it BECAUSE you saw that it was impossible for a man. In your own words from quite some time back, you said: but this is impossible if you have a wife and children! The only way it would be possible to never have anger or resentment in my heart at someone at some time would be if I went up on a hill far away and lived where I never had to interact with another man! Those were your own words and thoughts on it.
But because it is impossible for a man, this is not cause for saying it isn't true. That is mixing human wisdom in. A man thinks, but murderers will not enter in, and I know I have Gods Spirit and He has witnessed to me, inside me, that I belong to Him, so therefore, anger in my heart can NOT be murder or that would make my works EVIL!
But because it is impossible for a man, this is not cause for saying it isn't true. That is mixing human wisdom in. A man thinks, but murderers will not enter in, and I know I have Gods Spirit and He has witnessed to me, inside me, that I belong to Him, so therefore, anger in my heart can NOT be murder or that would make my works EVIL!
For me trust is believing Jesus and actually obeying Him.
Jesus came to show us the truth about who we are and what we need to
do. If we find a problem it is us who are the problem and not what He
has said.
Working it through our hearts, spending time with Him, in praise, in worship,
in His word, will make it plain.
Jesus said this
"I am the way, the truth and the life, No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:6-7
As soon as you start denying His words you have missed it, and are listening
to sin and impurity within ones own heart.
Do you know how much pain, forgiveness, trouble, sacrifice, love, healing,
transformation, revelation, I have gone through to get here? A lifetime.
So I will testify till I die to the truth of His love, His forgiveness and His
foundations. Bend the knee before you find judgement has arrived and you
have been found to be deceived and lost in the wilderness of darkness and sin.
Jesus came to show us the truth about who we are and what we need to
do. If we find a problem it is us who are the problem and not what He
has said.
Working it through our hearts, spending time with Him, in praise, in worship,
in His word, will make it plain.
Jesus said this
"I am the way, the truth and the life, No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:6-7
As soon as you start denying His words you have missed it, and are listening
to sin and impurity within ones own heart.
Do you know how much pain, forgiveness, trouble, sacrifice, love, healing,
transformation, revelation, I have gone through to get here? A lifetime.
So I will testify till I die to the truth of His love, His forgiveness and His
foundations. Bend the knee before you find judgement has arrived and you
have been found to be deceived and lost in the wilderness of darkness and sin.
R
That's right. That is how most people resolve their doctrinal questions. They simply ignore the passage of scripture that becomes nullified by their belief.
To arrive at correct doctrine you have to find the answer that does not nullify other passages of scripture. The once saved always saved crowd will post passage after passage thinking that what I believe somehow is refuted by their passages. They don't realize (or seem to care) that what I believe doesn't nullify their favorite once saved always saved passages but their beliefs do nullify other scripture.
Pretty much true of all once saved always saved people is all you have to do is say you're not once saved always saved and/or the word 'works' and they can't hear another word you say, even when what you say agrees with a particular part of their doctrine.
To arrive at correct doctrine you have to find the answer that does not nullify other passages of scripture. The once saved always saved crowd will post passage after passage thinking that what I believe somehow is refuted by their passages. They don't realize (or seem to care) that what I believe doesn't nullify their favorite once saved always saved passages but their beliefs do nullify other scripture.
Pretty much true of all once saved always saved people is all you have to do is say you're not once saved always saved and/or the word 'works' and they can't hear another word you say, even when what you say agrees with a particular part of their doctrine.
Stunned,
You see what you want to see.
Anger has not been an issue for me. But it appears to be an issue for you.
I am not resentful about others. So please try not to project your issues on
to me. You think you have rights, things to defend, to stand up for.
Look at my contributions just on cc. I do not have an anger issue, rather for
some the opposite, they want me to get riled up. Praise the Lord He brings me
peace and love to share.
So please, what you feel is impossible is not impossible with Christ in your heart.
Listen to Jesus,
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:27
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:22-23
I have reason to be angry with many for their false accusations and slander.
But Jesus tells me, this is what the gospel does in the heart of man.
He tells us this is what people will do.
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
John 16:2
I have spoken to people who would happily kill me. I have had people attempt
this very thing, yet I think for many they find it hard to conceive hatred that deep.
For a believer to claim I blaspheme God by obeying Him and listening to Him is a
step on this very road.
If you want to know where you are on the spiritual scale, just preach His word and
walk in His ways. Only the Lords people will be your friends.
There was a time when I would have wondered at how believers could react like this,
but then, in the reformation how many murdered each other in the name of Christ?
You see what you want to see.
Anger has not been an issue for me. But it appears to be an issue for you.
I am not resentful about others. So please try not to project your issues on
to me. You think you have rights, things to defend, to stand up for.
Look at my contributions just on cc. I do not have an anger issue, rather for
some the opposite, they want me to get riled up. Praise the Lord He brings me
peace and love to share.
So please, what you feel is impossible is not impossible with Christ in your heart.
Listen to Jesus,
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:27
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:22-23
I have reason to be angry with many for their false accusations and slander.
But Jesus tells me, this is what the gospel does in the heart of man.
He tells us this is what people will do.
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
John 16:2
I have spoken to people who would happily kill me. I have had people attempt
this very thing, yet I think for many they find it hard to conceive hatred that deep.
For a believer to claim I blaspheme God by obeying Him and listening to Him is a
step on this very road.
If you want to know where you are on the spiritual scale, just preach His word and
walk in His ways. Only the Lords people will be your friends.
There was a time when I would have wondered at how believers could react like this,
but then, in the reformation how many murdered each other in the name of Christ?
R
That is in fact what leads to the real truth. Not many people will do this though. They choose to hunker down in a hardened position in the un-rightly divided verse or passage of scripture they are using to push their beliefs. It seems to be the primary mark of false doctrine-a verse or passage that is being un-rightly divided out from the whole context of the Bible.