Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[Depleted]

Nor is He a jailer....

Yeah. Because when we're given new life, a big spacious mansion, and the love and adoption from the creator and king of the universe, first thing on our mind is "boy, oh boy! I really hate this jail." lol

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

As confusing as it's gotten I can't believe I'm adding one more thing, but EG, concerning what we were talking about earlier, look at this verse!

When ​

the

people of ​

Is

rael saw ​

the

mighty power that ​

the

Lord had unleashed against ​

the

Egyptians, ​

the

y were filled with awe before him. ​

​

The

y put​

the

ir​

faith

in​

the

Lord​

​

and in his servant Moses.​

 

[RickyZ]

Yeah. Because when we're given new life, a big spacious mansion, and the love and adoption from the creator and king of the universe, first thing on our mind is "boy, oh boy! I really hate this jail." lol

Jail doesn't have anything to do with your surroundings, it has to do with whether you are permitted to leave.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds, there ARE some who nonetheless will chose to leave.

So the question is, Does God allow them that freedom or does God lock them down?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It says they put their faith in Him. You said they had no faith in Him, right?
But I was trying to say they HAD to have faith/trust in Him or they never would have stepped out under that towering wall of water.

 

[Depleted]

I think they are also okay with you believing that you must continue to trust to be saved.
They just fear that you don't know that you would fail in it if not for Him giving you trust and then keeping you in it.

Admittedly, there is some variation because some believe that to trust is a choice and some believe the trust is a gift not of themselves and so think they shouldn't boast about their gift as if they produced it.

When I was 18 and going off to college soon, Dad gave me a 1967 Mustang. (Also a clunker, since it was rusted so badly underneath the only thing between me and the road was the carpet, but I still love that car.)

It was a gift to be used, and I gladly used it. Trust is the same kind of thing -- it is a gift to be used, so it doesn't take long before we think of it as mine. It is ours. That's what gifting does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Aorist tense isn't or is the same as present perfect? (Honestly, keep picturing Mad-eye Moody, an auror in Harry Potter, when I see that word "aorist." I never heard of that word from school days, so it just baffles me.) I see Angela and Marc talking aorist, and feel like I'm in first grade listening to two college students. I even looked it up, but still hits under does-not-compute.

from what i understand, aorist tense is something that starts at some point in the past. (I entered the stae of salvation) that continues right now. And will continue into the future. (As an example, There will come a time when I no longer need to be saved, that time wil be when my salvation is made complete. And I am given my new body where it will be impossible for me to sin, thus I no longer need to remain in that saved state)

where as the perfect tense said I am saved, end of story, it is a completed action. Nothing can take away or add to that state,

Where as the present tense is just a status right now. It may or may not continue into the future.

 

[Depleted]

I think the point of contention here is Ralph thinks faith can be lost. I do not. And I think the reason is based on how we define these words. And where the root of our faith is, That is something I hope we can hash out and see what the difference is.

I think the three of you may end up driving Laurie nuts trying to figure out what y'all are talking about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There's a difference between trusting the gospel is true, and trusting in the gospel.

I agree I think, except I would not use trust in the first point, I would say there is a difference in believing the gospel. And actually trusting in the gospel.

I may believe the gospel may be true, but not trust in the gospel. In other words. I may have knowlerdge and agree with the gospel (believe) yet I have have no trust or faith in the gospel (faith)

If I believe the gospel is true, but have no faith in the gospel. My belief in the gospel is wishy washy, and may fail,. Because I do not trust the purpose the gospel was given. Thus I can fall away in unbelief.

if I have assurance in the gospel. I will only lose faith in the gospel if it fails me.

Maybe you did not intend to make a differentiation between the two when you said 'trust the gospel is true'.


I know lots of unsaved people who trust that the gospel is indeed true. They won't argue with you that it is indeed true. But what they have not done is trust in the gospel itself. They just trust that it is true. Simply trusting the gospel is true will save no one. You must trust IN the gospel to be saved. See the difference?

I understand, I have seen this too.

I also know alot of people who say they trust in the gospel. Yet will also say things which give me doubt they trust the gospel at all.. All they have is knowledge and belief, no faith at all. If they hads faiht in the gospel. They would not say the things they are saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As confusing as it's gotten I can't believe I'm adding one more thing, but EG, concerning what we were talking about earlier, look at this verse!

When ​

the

people of ​

Is

rael saw ​

the

mighty power that ​

the

Lord had unleashed against ​

the

Egyptians, ​

the

y were filled with awe before him. ​

The

y put​

the

ir​

faith

in​

the

Lord​

and in his servant Moses.​

They did not enter the promised land because of unbelief.

We will not enter heaven (our promised land) because of unbelief. Not because we did not live up to Go0ds standard, because we did not do enough works, because we did not trust him in a particular area of our life. Or God prevented us from seeing the truth.

We will go to hell (if that is where we gfo) because we did not believe.

He who believes is condemned, he who does nto believe is condemned already.

 

[Depleted]

Jail doesn't have anything to do with your surroundings, it has to do with whether you are permitted to leave.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds, there ARE some who nonetheless will chose to leave.

So the question is, Does God allow them that freedom or does God lock them down?

I am poor enough that I cannot leave where I am living. I am not in jail because I cannot leave where I'm living.

Jail is worse than hospital in that you can't do what you'd rather do, you're told what to do all the time, have to do it, and you can't go about in the life you would prefer to live. No one is forcing anyone to stay, nor live their lives in preset schedule.

It's not jail.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It says they put their faith in Him. You said they had no faith in Him, right?
But I was trying to say they HAD to have faith/trust in Him or they never would have stepped out under that towering wall of water.

I knoe people who are in the rage of fear do things they w0uld not normally do. The egyptian army was comming at them, they had two choices.

Stay behind and die

Or step out into the path, and maybe die, maybe live.

It does not mean they had faith in God. It was just their only hope.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes I agree they did not enter because of unbelief, but earlier they DID have belief, they placed their faith in Him after they saw what He did in Egypt. But then, in the desert, their hearts became evil and unbelieving and mistrusting.

 

[Depleted]

from what i understand, aorist tense is something that starts at some point in the past. (I entered the stae of salvation) that continues right now. And will continue into the future. (As an example, There will come a time when I no longer need to be saved, that time wil be when my salvation is made complete. And I am given my new body where it will be impossible for me to sin, thus I no longer need to remain in that saved state)

where as the perfect tense said I am saved, end of story, it is a completed action. Nothing can take away or add to that state,

Where as the present tense is just a status right now. It may or may not continue into the future.

Almost getting there.

Present perfect is both present as in it's happening now, and perfect as in it's not just happening now. It started before and will continue on.

On the other hand, it sounds like aorist has a beginning, middle and end, but present perfect doesn't say if it does have a beginning nor end. It just was, is, and will be, with no set timeline for when it started or ended.

Almost there, or did I get it?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I knoe people who are in the rage of fear do things they w0uld not normally do. The egyptian army was comming at them, they had two choices.

Stay behind and die

Or step out into the path, and maybe die, maybe live.

It does not mean they had faith in God. It was just their only hope.

Except the verse I gave says: they placed their faith in God. They placed their trust in God. They believed in God. They trusted God. So do you think they lost that faith somewhere between leaving Egypt and arriving at the Red Sea?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Except the verse I gave says: they placed their faith in God. They placed their trust in God. They believed in God. They trusted God. So do you think they lost that faith somewhere between leaving Egypt and arriving at the Red Sea?

Gen 14: [FONT=&quot]10 And when Pharaoh drew near, the children of Israel lifted their eyes, and behold, the Egyptians marched after them. So they were very afraid, and the children of Israel cried out to the Lord. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 Then they said to Moses, “Because there were no graves in Egypt, have you taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you so dealt with us, to bring us up out of Egypt? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 Is this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, ‘Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians’? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness.”[/FONT]

yep. I would say that about sums it up. Does that look like people who trusted God still?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Almost getting there.

Present perfect is both present as in it's happening now, and perfect as in it's not just happening now. It started before and will continue on.

On the other hand, it sounds like aorist has a beginning, middle and end, but present perfect doesn't say if it does have a beginning nor end. It just was, is, and will be, with no set timeline for when it started or ended.

Almost there, or did I get it?

I never heard of present perfect. I was just speaking of perfect.

And-yes, I beliebe aorist can have an end.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Gen 14: 10 And when Pharaoh drew near, the children of Israel lifted their eyes, and behold, the Egyptians marched after them. So they were very afraid, and the children of Israel cried out to the Lord. 11 Then they said to Moses, “Because there were no graves in Egypt, have you taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you so dealt with us, to bring us up out of Egypt? 12 Is this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, ‘Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians’? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness.”

yep. I would say that about sums it up. Does that look like people who trusted God still?

Ah, verse 31 comes after that. Verse 31 says after they saw all that /God had done to the Egyptians and what He did at the Red Sea, they placed their faith in God and Moses.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

After He saved them they placed their faith in Him. It was afterwards that they lost their faith in Him.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Faith is thre assurance of things that they are true

belief is just acknowledging that you agree that something happened.

People believe jesus, that he died on the cross. Thus they acknowledge, yes that is true, i believe that.

it does not mean that have faith on what the pupose of his event was for.

Believeing this event happened will not save you.

This is true...My sister knows Jesus died on the cross , she believes He died on the cross , she is not saved , as far as I can tell . Jesus dying on the cross has had no impact on her life...I myself have had a deep convo with her , she has even bought a bible , still got it shut , she even claimed on FB the other day that she is an atheist after posting about Stephan Hawkins...

Unless God calls us , or tenderizes our hearts towards Him , we remain blind...As for ever going back to my old life , I could never , and still say those that do were never saved , impossible , once saved , our life changes from deep within , everyday God is showing us something new , everyday we deny our self , even if it is something so small that we do not notice until it becomes part of our new life...

Jude 1:24:25 [FONT=&quot] “To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” ...

[/FONT]John 10 28-30 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”...

Philippians 1:6 I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus...

All the glory to God \/...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gen 14: 10 And when Pharaoh drew near, the children of Israel lifted their eyes, and behold, the Egyptians marched after them. So they were very afraid, and the children of Israel cried out to the Lord. 11 Then they said to Moses, “Because there were no graves in Egypt, have you taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you so dealt with us, to bring us up out of Egypt? 12 Is this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, ‘Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians’? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness.”

yep. I would say that about sums it up. Does that look like people who trusted God still?

Just to note.

Notice in this passage

1. They gave no credit to god (You took us away to die, You dealt with us to bring us out of egypt.
2. They thought it wopuld be better if they were left alone to serve the egyptians then to die in the wilderness.

In other words, they woudl rather remains unsaved then be saved.