Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?

[Stunnedbygrace]

To be honest, you both are defining with a little bias toward doctrine...
Can we go with faith is a gift that is an assurance and a conviction? It's per the bible verses.

 

[Ralph-]

Notice the slight but important twist your putting on 'trust'.

By the way, I don't mean 'twist' as if you're deliberately trying to be sly and wicked. I just can't think of another word to use that wouldn't have the connotation of wickedness attached to it.

Just want to knock down any occasion for strife before it has a chance to spring up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol. We know your not peter. We know who you are.

Fran?? (Just kidding)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be honest, you both are defining with a little bias toward doctrine...
Can we go with faith is a gift that is an assurance and a conviction? It's per the bible verses.

I am defining it in all terms in every day life. The same defenition on belief in my boss, or haviung assurance in my boss fits.

Can I ask why you think I am biasing it towards doctrine? What gives you that idea?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By the way, I don't mean 'twist' as if you're deliberately trying to be sly and wicked. I just can't think of another word to use that wouldn't have the connotation of wickedness attached to it.

Just want to knock down any occasion for strife before it has a chance to spring up.

what twist do you think I was putting on it?

 

[Ralph-]

Can we go with faith is a gift that is an assurance and a conviction? It's per the bible verses.

That's how I mean it. Really.

God gives us the undeniable conviction and assurance that the gospel really is true through His supernatural gift of faith. This faith enables us to know the gospel really is true so we can then place our trust in it and be saved.

God gives the faith. We do the believing in response. That's the part WE do and must do in order to be saved.

 

[Depleted]

Thank you, I had to look these up, thanks for this..

In titus 3, Saves is aorist tense

In eph 2: 8 saved is perfect tense as you said, amen,

1 tim 1: 9 saved is again aorist tense.

in all cases. It is a completed action, Which happened at some point in the past. Continues in the present, and will continue forever. Amen and amen.

Aorist tense isn't or is the same as present perfect? (Honestly, keep picturing Mad-eye Moody, an auror in Harry Potter, when I see that word "aorist." I never heard of that word from school days, so it just baffles me.) I see Angela and Marc talking aorist, and feel like I'm in first grade listening to two college students. I even looked it up, but still hits under does-not-compute.

 

[Ralph-]

what twist do you think I was putting on it?

There's a difference between trusting the gospel is true, and trusting in the gospel.

Maybe you did not intend to make a differentiation between the two when you said 'trust the gospel is true'.


I know lots of unsaved people who trust that the gospel is indeed true. They won't argue with you that it is indeed true. But what they have not done is trust in the gospel itself. They just trust that it is true. Simply trusting the gospel is true will save no one. You must trust IN the gospel to be saved. See the difference?

 

[mailmandan]

I have removed ralph from the ignore list one more time, Lets see if it can maintain that way.

So far I only have one person on ignore. I can tolerate ankle biters, but long winded posts full of psycho babble, rhetoric and SDA propaganda, I absolutely refuse to tolerate!

 

[RickyZ]

I think the point of contention here is Ralph thinks faith can be lost. I do not. And I think the reason is based on how we define these words. And where the root of our faiht is, That is somethign I hope we can hash out and see what the difference is.

I think we need to use the right word as well. Abandon the word 'lost', we all know salvation cannot be 'lost'.

The word we are debating is 'forfeited'.

 

[Ralph-]

Aorist tense isn't or is the same as present perfect? (Honestly, keep picturing Mad-eye Moody, an auror in Harry Potter, when I see that word "aorist." I never heard of that word from school days, so it just baffles me.) I see Angela and Marc talking aorist, and feel like I'm in first grade listening to two college students. I even looked it up, but still hits under does-not-compute.

Actually, there is no English equivalent to the Greek aorist tense.

The best way to understand it is something has happened, and "gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect." (https://www.ezraproject.com/greek-tenses-explained/).

 

[Depleted]

meh...not such a big deal to me, that's all. Now if she said Jesus had purple hair I'd fight 'er!

Did you know that at the time of Christ the Jordan River was bleeding purple after a lake above it was washed out and washed down the rich top soil along the way? Because of this, many people had purple hair, as well as a purple tint to their skin.

AND, if you believe this, I have lake-front property just east of Atlantic City to sell you.

(Made up story, for anyone who doesn't get my sense of humor. I don't want that to become the beginning of urban legend.)

 

[Ralph-]

Fran?? (Just kidding)

Lol, I thought that might come up.

 

[Depleted]

So as it turns out, I can't go today. I won't bore you with the gory details, but it turns out to have been good that I lingered and dragged my feet instead of heading out for the 3 hour drive.

So I can stay here and cause you all grief again today. One more day of vacation, rest and best of all, getting to talk with you all!

Should we be praying for you? (Gory details often linked to the words "stomach flu" in my history.)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's how I mean it. Really.

God gives us the undeniable conviction and assurance that the gospel really is true through His supernatural gift of faith. This faith enables us to know the gospel really is true so we can then place our trust in it and be saved.

God gives the faith. We do the believing in response. That's the part WE do and must do in order to be saved.

I'm having trouble believing that if someone is given the strong conviction that it is true and the firm assurance that it is true - that anyone would say, nope, I don't believe. I think there are some things that can choke out this gift, this seed of faith, but that is different.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Should we be praying for you? (Gory details often linked to the words "stomach flu" in my history.)

Things have settled some, thanks.

 

[RickyZ]

I'm having trouble believing that if someone is given the strong conviction that it is true and the firm assurance that it is true - that anyone would say, nope, I don't believe.

It IS rare ... but I have 2 people in my family who have done just that.

 

[Depleted]

Now if I can just see clearly again, all would be good..lol

Hope that girl comes back and tells us the other 3 reasons.

Laurie's staying. I've seen her on a few forums now, and she participates enough to get she's staying. She also has a toddler, so day time is chase-chase-chase for now. (Have you ever watched mother's with toddlers? That's all they ever do. Chase the child all day and halfway through the night. I need a nap just watching them. lol)

 

[Ralph-]

I'm having trouble believing that if someone is given the strong conviction that it is true and the firm assurance that it is true - that anyone would say, nope, I don't believe. I think there are some things that can choke out this gift, this seed of faith, but that is different.

I gave you the passage of scripture in 1 John 5 that shows where people reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit and do not retain it in their hearts, in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar (which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by the way).

The truth is MOST people reject the strong conviction of the Holy Spirit-the Spirit of faith-and choose to reject the truth that God has shown them. Only a few accept it, retain it, and are saved.

 

[Ralph-]

Back later, people. Can't let a work day around the house get away from me. Too much to do.