Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

hornetguy · Mar 22, 2018

I disagree with this.... The apostles didn't go around teaching, step by step, everything needed to be a believer, at every occasion. I believe they assumed people that had been taught what Jesus said KNEW that he mentioned baptism as an essential part ... so it was unnecessary to repeat it every time...

Just like they didn't have to say "you must hear the word, believe, have faith, accept Jesus...." yada yada....

'He who believes will be saved.....' all the rest is assumed... because it is all necessary. It's not necessary to spell it out every time salvation is discussed.

You keep saying that since it was NOT mentioned in a couple of instances, then it's not necessary. I can show you scriptures that say nothing of believing, or having faith, or even hearing for salvation. It does not follow that those things are not necessary, they simply were not mentioned, because they were assumed.

You cannot pick one or two verses and base your whole belief system on them. You have to read all of the scriptures pertaining to salvation.... even if it is stated in only ONE instance, it should be assumed it is part of EVERY instance.

garee · Mar 22, 2018

preston39 said:

Living water or water poured out is used in parables throughout the bible to represent the pouring out of the Spirit of Christ ,the Holy Spirit of God.

Blood is used in the same way in respect to the unseen Spirit . The life of the flesh is in the blood but that life is not literal blood. It must be poured out to show spirit life was given in jeopardy of the persons own spiritual work of faith as if it was blood ..

It can be seen in the parable as to the beginning of the three day demonstration of Christ working, pouring out His Spirit(the promise) as if it was blood.

Again sweat indicates a person is working.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Below it is applied to the ministers as a kingdom of priest no sweat to them indicating another was coming to do the work .Pointing to Luke 22:44 the fulfillment.

Ezekiel 44:18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

The phrase as it were indicates a parable is in view. Hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man . The understanding must be compared to the same kind of understanding.(not seen)

For instance it seems confusing that we are to drink the blood that must be poured out so that it can return to the spiritless dust in was taken from in order to show spiritual life was given .

Again literal water as that seen the temporal and literal blood as that also seen represents the unseen work of the gospel from faith (the unseen spiritual ).to the same faith as the unseen eternal. It can be compared to another parable , Both parables working together to give us the unseen spiritual understanding ....again hid in the parables.

It would appear God had sent David a thirst for hearing the gospel as the water of the word .Using various metaphors to in indicate the spiritual understanding.

The water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate, indicating Christ is the gate by which men enter fellowship. Bethlehem the city of bread, the source of our daily bread. Twice he uses the phrase ( the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!) to emphasize the spiritual understanding

And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem.And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD.And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men. 2Sa 23:14

There I believe we can see to drink blood as that seen the temporal was used as a shadow or the work of someone pouring out their spirit as if it was blood.

Donmech · Mar 22, 2018

preston39 said:

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (Nicodemus is talking about natural birth)
(vs 5) Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jesus shows Nicodemus there are two kinds of births, because Nicodemus did not understand, a natural birth,(born of water) which was what Nicodemus was referring too and a spiritual birth which is what is required to enter the kingdom.) So I believe the born of water phrase refers back to the natural birth in keeping with the context of the conversation. From a contextual standpoint water baptism isn't implied. Context, context, context.

mailmandan · Mar 22, 2018

hornetguy said:

Works which follow saving faith in Christ, such as water baptism, is not assumed. Hearing the word and repentance "precede" saving faith in Christ so they are assumed and do not need to be spelled out every time salvation through belief/faith is discussed. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

Works which follow saving faith in Christ are not assumed. You are trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through belief/faith.

You cannot pick one or two verses and base your whole belief system on them. You have to read all of the scriptures pertaining to salvation.... even if it is stated in only ONE instance, it should be assumed it is part of EVERY instance.[/QUOTE] One or two verses? There are a multitude of verses that make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Galatians chapter 3; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4; 13 etc..).

Those who believe that we absolutely must be water baptized in order to be saved (dipped or condemned, no exceptions) base their belief system on a handful of isolated verses, taken out of context with the rest of scripture. We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine and not distort passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a different gospel.

mailmandan · Mar 22, 2018

preston39 said:

It was a thorough answer. You have no rebuttal and just simply disagree. As suspected.

Properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine is not changing God's word.

According to Roman Catholics and Mormons and other works-salvationists, but not according to God's word. Show me the word "baptism" in John 3:5.

Yes, the words in John 3:5 along with the words in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 are there for all to see. At least for those who have eyes to see.

preston39 · Mar 22, 2018

hornetguy said:

h...,

...And you be correct.

This ....no baptism necessary....OSAS...as well as some other recent bible interpretations are strictly new age religion junk that are miss leading many new to being A christian...causing them great harm...in the end.

Great deceptions is a major end time revelation emphasized in scriptures and they are here being embraced by many who just don't. take the required time to study G-d's word.

hornetguy · Mar 22, 2018

Except baptism is NOT a work. It is obedience. BIG difference.

I would think that since Jesus himself told us to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that it would most definitely be assumed that is what we are to do.

That trumps everything else. Jesus himself commanded it.

preston39 · Mar 22, 2018

garee said:

Living water or water poured out is used in parables throughout the bible to represent the pouring out of the Spirit of Christ ,the Holy Spirit of God.

Blood is used in the same way in respect to the unseen Spirit . The life of the flesh is in the blood but that life is not literal blood. It must be poured out to show spirit life was given in jeopardy of the persons own spiritual work of faith as if it was blood ..

It can be seen in the parable as to the beginning of the three day demonstration of Christ working, pouring out His Spirit(the promise) as if it was blood.

Again sweat indicates a person is working.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Below it is applied to the ministers as a kingdom of priest no sweat to them indicating another was coming to do the work .Pointing to Luke 22:44 the fulfillment.

Ezekiel 44:18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

The phrase as it were indicates a parable is in view. Hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man . The understanding must be compared to the same kind of understanding.(not seen)

For instance it seems confusing that we are to drink the blood that must be poured out so that it can return to the spiritless dust in was taken from in order to show spiritual life was given .

Again literal water as that seen the temporal and literal blood as that also seen represents the unseen work of the gospel from faith (the unseen spiritual ).to the same faith as the unseen eternal. It can be compared to another parable , Both parables working together to give us the unseen spiritual understanding ....again hid in the parables.

It would appear God had sent David a thirst for hearing the gospel as the water of the word .Using various metaphors to in indicate the spiritual understanding.

The water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate, indicating Christ is the gate by which men enter fellowship. Bethlehem the city of bread, the source of our daily bread. Twice he uses the phrase (the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!) to emphasize the spiritual understanding

And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem.And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD.And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men. 2Sa 23:14

There I believe we can see to drink blood as that seen the temporal was used as a shadow or the work of someone pouring out their spirit as if it was blood.

You are attempting a spin here.

Not in relation to baptism..it doesn't. Nice try.... no award.

preston39 · Mar 22, 2018

mailmandan said:

*As I already explained in post #825:

If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal salvation to those who simply BELIEVE (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:26; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 3:22; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is purely self Serving and has a support value. Sorry...no award.

mailmandan · Mar 23, 2018

hornetguy said:

Obedience is works. Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which follow and are produced out of faith are works. When John the Baptist tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized by him, Jesus said to John: "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matthew 3:13-15). Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but by grace through faith.

I was thinking about what you said about baptism being implied or assumed (in other words included in belief/faith) when the Bible says we are saved through belief/faith and it reminds me of a conversation that I had with a Roman Catholic who made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above and they call that salvation through faith, but it's also + works.

In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, which would include multiple acts of obedience/works.

Jesus commanded water baptism (along with many other things), but He never said that is was absolutely necessary for salvation/whoever is not baptized will be condemned. The Bible makes clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-47). This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43).

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation.In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

mailmandan · Mar 23, 2018

preston39 said:

I have scripture to support my arguments. All you have is sarcasm.

hornetguy · Mar 23, 2018

I agree with some of what you said in this paragraph... you are saying much the same thing I am saying, except you emphasize the "unimportance" of baptism, where I see it as a "given"... something that is to be taught and practiced at EVERY conversion.

The physical act of baptism does not "save" us, the way I understand scripture. We are saved by God's grace because of Jesus' sacrifice for us, and our acceptance of him as our Lord. We are to be baptized as our part of accepting that free gift... for several reasons/purposes. Jesus taught that. The apostles practiced that. So did every other believer down to the 18th century or so. That is the way it was done.

If a new believer was to listen to what you are saying, they would come to the conclusion that all I have to do is believe, then continue on my way.... "saved".... baptism is not necessary, so why bother?

I believe you are teaching it wrong. Baptism is taught and shown to be an essential part of a non believer becoming a believer.

If a person is taught incorrectly, and accepts Jesus as their savior and is not baptized, I don't think that will negate their salvation at all. But, they should be taught correctly as soon as possible, and they should be baptized, as Jesus commanded. They should NOT be taught that "oh, well, it really isn't necessary... don't worry about it." That is doing them a dis-service, and is NOT teaching what Jesus did.

mailmandan · Mar 23, 2018

hornetguy said:

Just because I don't believe that baptism is the means of our salvation does not mean that I see it as unimportant. Partaking of the Lord's Supper and doing this in remembrance of Him is also important, but I don't see that as the means of our salvation either. I also believe that baptism should be taught and practiced at EVERY conversion. *I can't name one Christian that I know who refused to be water baptized after their conversion. *In regards to me personally, I could not wait and was very excited to be water baptized after my conversion!

Amen!

We don't receive water baptism in order to accept the free gift through faith, but BECAUSE we have accepted the free gift through faith.

Not at all. The Bible commands believers to be water baptized, so I would not tell a new convert to not bother getting baptized.

We don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. We must not put the cart before the horse.

It's the lack of belief (John 3:18) that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, yet if someone truly believes then why on earth would they refuse to be water baptized?

I agree. Just because water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation does not mean that it's unimportant or meaningless and we should simply disregard it. Baptism is a command that we are expected to obey and if someone claimed to be a new convert but refuses to be water baptized, then I would seriously doubt the genuineness of their alleged conversion.

notuptome · Mar 23, 2018

hornetguy said:

You don't think not being baptized will negate their salvation? It in your theology is necessary but you won't completely rule out grace being sufficient. How generous of you toward God and His plan of redemption.

Holy Spirit baptism is the only baptism required for salvation. Water baptism is always symbolic and not efficacious toward redemption of a mans soul.

Most of the scripture references you rely upon are not water baptism but Holy Spirit baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

DJ2 · Mar 23, 2018

mailmandan said:

No, what you have is simply a distracting strawman argument:

Regardless of what some Roman Catholic told you, it is not part of the debate. I will not attack your strawman.

Obedience is necessary, whether you label it a work or not. Salvation is predicated on acts of obedience, we may debate what needs to be obeyed but not the need itself. Your attitude toward any and all physical acts being works of righteousness is a but a farce. By your definition the applying of blood on the door posts to protect the Hebrews in Egypt would be a "work of righteousness" and therefore not needed.

Your defense is no different then any other person caught up in faith alone regeneration theology. You label verses written in the general as definitive. You label commands for obedience as suggestions. You bring up issues that are not pertinent to the subject such as Roman Catholicism. You shamelessly offer bizarre explanations for such clear and definitive verses such as Acts 2:38, 1st Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 etc. Explanations so convoluted as to be labeled childish.

Again, your defense is based on "all" human acts of obedience as works of righteousness. This argument is both biblically unsound and logically empty. God predicating our need for obedience does not negate the existence of His grace any more then knocking earns salvation (Matthew 7:7-8).

hornetguy · Mar 23, 2018

That just simply is not true. Unless it specifically mentions that "spiritual baptism" is being discussed, "baptism" means being immersed into water.

Donmech · Mar 23, 2018

hornetguy said:

If you don't mind, could you please list all scripture with the word baptism or baptize which you believe are referring to water emersion baptism? Thank you

hornetguy · Mar 23, 2018

mailmandan said:

Just because I don't believe that baptism is the means of our salvation does not mean that I see it as unimportant. Partaking of the Lord's Supper and doing this in remembrance of Him is also important, but I don't see that as the means of our salvation either. I also believe that baptism should be taught and practiced at EVERY conversion. *I can't name one Christian that I know who refused to be water baptized after their conversion. *In regards to me personally, I could not wait and was very excited to be water baptized after my conversion!

Amen!

We don't receive water baptism in order to accept the free gift through faith, but BECAUSE we have accepted the free gift through faith.

Not at all. The Bible commands believers to be water baptized, so I would not tell a new convert to not bother getting baptized.

I was pretty sure you believed that... I suppose it is just this discussion about baptismal salvation that makes it seem that you are "de-emphasizing" it.

We don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. We must not put the cart before the horse.

Absolutely.

It's the lack of belief (John 3:18) that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, yet if someone truly believes then why on earth would they refuse to be water baptized?

that is correct... IF they have been taught the importance of it.

I agree. Just because water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation does not mean that it's unimportant or meaningless and we should simply disregard it. Baptism is a command that we are expected to obey and if someone claimed to be a new convert but refuses to be water baptized, then I would seriously doubt the genuineness of their alleged conversion.

We are in complete agreement here....

I agree with pretty much all of this. That's what I was saying... we pretty much believe the same thing, but just stress it differently.

DJ2 · Mar 23, 2018

Donmech....

It would be much easier for you to list all scriptures with the word baptism or baptize which you believe is not referring to water immersion baptism.

preston39 · Mar 23, 2018

mailmandan said:

m...,

Stop hiding the scriptures then...let us see them. You haven't yet.

Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

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