Are women allowed to Preach?

[proverbs35]

1 Timothy 2:8-15 [SUP]8[/SUP]Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. [SUP]9[/SUP]I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, [SUP]10[/SUP]but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14[/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [SUP]15[/SUP]But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

The woman didn't sin by herself.
Adam sinned right along with the woman.

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. Romans 5:12-21

 

[Angela53510]

1TIM 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Women are not mentioned in that scripture ...

the scripture clearly declares man the head of woman

1 Corinthians 11:3-4 [SUP]3[/SUP]But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

This is why men should not be able to preach or teach. What does the verse actually say, when properly translated?

”For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.” 1 Tim. 2:5-6 NET
[FONT=&quot]
Who is this verse about? Is it about “men?” Or even humans?

NO! It is about Jesus Christ! And how he came to give himself as a ransom for ALL!

And if you want to exclude women from 1 Tim. 2:5, well, then you have literally excluded them from being saved. It doesn’t get much dummer than that.

And if you want to look at the Greek:

”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις·” 1 Tim. 2:5-6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
As you can plainly see, the word “men” is actually the word [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἀνθρώπων[/FONT][FONT=&quot], anthropon, from the word [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἄνθρωπος[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]being the genitive plural meaning “human, humanity.” Not the word “aner” which means man.

Now, I don’t know what translation you are using. It used to be that the male was inclusive of the female, in English, but that has changed. Another good reason to read a modern version, because that has changed in English. So, the translation might have been right even 25-30 years ago. But, now English has changed!

But, Koine Greek has not changed! Anthropos includes the female, it is non-specific and will remain that way in Greek. And God has not changed! He still includes women in his plan of redemption!

And my next question would be, have you even read 1 Corinthians? Chapter 11 is about a cultural issue - head coverings. This had something to do with married women versus prostitutes. In fact, Corinth was the city most famous in the first century, for its prostitutes, including cult prostitutes. This is because, it had 2 seaports, and lots of sailors.

So, Paul is talking about women covering their hair so they are not identified as prostitutes. I seriously don’t believe how people strain at gnats to try and prove women need some kind of man to run (ruin?) their lives. So glad my husband has a brain in his head.

 

[UnderGrace]

#382

......women need some kind of man to run (ruin?) their lives.

Okay... this quite funny.... in a good way of course!!

 

[Angela53510]

What does it mean when it says "man is head of woman" ? ... That verse has no mention of any husband at all ...

I think you need to get off this thread, before you embarrass yourself too much.

In both Greek in the NT and Hebrew in the OT, the same word is used for “wife” as for “woman” and “husband” as for “man.”



[h=2]ishshâh, - [FONT=&quot]אִשַָּׁה[/FONT] (Strong's #802)
'woman, wife, female'[/h]Resource Toolbox

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"Then the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man." (Gen. 2:22, NKJV) ​

The word [FONT=&quot]אִשַָּׁה 'ishshâh (Strong's #802, x780) appears to be a feminine form of [FONT=&quot]אִישׁ[/FONT] 'îysh "man, husband, male" (Strong's #376, x1638), in turn probably contracted from [FONT=&quot]אֱנוֹשׁ[/FONT] 'enôwsh "man" (Strong's #582, x564). Many modern Hebraists prefer to see the two words as unrelated despite the similar sound and apparent feminine suffix -âh. The preferred root is [FONT=&quot]אָנַשׁ[/FONT] 'ânash (Strong's #605, x9) meaning "weak, sick, wounded" some would apply this 'weakness' to woman and if applied to man in the sense of 'mortality'. Others point to Arabic and Ugaritic's similar root verb meaning "friendly, social" emphasising man as a social being. At man's creation his mortality, physical or spiritual weakness was not yet paramount, however woman was made by the wounding of man, the taking of his rib or side, making him weaker. Another proposed root for man at least is [FONT=&quot]אוּשׁ[/FONT] 'ûwsh or [FONT=&quot]אָשַׁשׁ[/FONT] 'âshash from the idea of "pressed or compound strength", further contrasting with the idea of weakness in woman, biblically at least. [/FONT]
It is variously translated by "wife" x425, "woman" x324 or "female" just x2 in the AV, just as the male equivalent does not distinguish between man or husband. Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon rather archaically defines it as "a woman, of every age and condition, whether married or not"! It is even used more generically not only of "the female of the species" but the female of any species as in Genesis 7:2 of taking 2 of each unclean animal (it was 7 of each gender of each clean animal, the Flood story is often inaccurately remembered) into Noah's Ark, literally "two male and his female", an assumption of a breeding pair. When it appears in the construct possessive form [FONT=&quot]אֵשֶׁת 'êsheth it is consistently translated "wife of X", "X's wife" some 98 times including the phrase "wife of harlotry" (Hosea 1:2).[/FONT]




https://www.studylight.org/language-studies/hebrew-thoughts.html?article=649



[FONT=&quot]In this case, γυνή ("gynē") is the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]nominative case[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the word that translates as "wife" or "woman" in the singular.

[/FONT]greek word for woman or wife - B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum

 

[Angela53510]

I really was going to stay off this thread, but while I was making dinner and my husband was in the other room watching TV, I heard a story about Malala Yousafazai going back to Pakistan, because she wanted to go home. She was the young girl who got shot in the face as a teenager, by radical Muslim extremists, because she dared to go to school. Even though, her father was the principal, and wanted her there. She won the Nobel peace prize.

I was thinking about some of the men on this thread, and wondering if they are actually worshipping the moon god Allah? Because, the misogynist attitudes here have nothing on radical Muslims. It is a tarnish on the name of Jesus Christ, that men think they should be the authority or rule over women.

Jesus it the only authority, the one who came to save and free men and women from their sin and from death.

“Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt 28:18

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” Gal. 3:28[FONT=&quot]

I know there are people who say that Gal 3:28 only applies to salvation. Well, I guess after reading some of the posts, which say that because in some older English version women are not inclusive with the word “men,” so women cannot be saved! I am so grateful for this verse, and that we are not Muslims, where women are so limited because of their sacred book.

As for the men who have shown themselves to be incompetent to interpret the Bible, perhaps they would feel more comfortable in a Muslim forum, or for that matter, moving somewhere in the Middle East where women have no rights? I’m sure you would be very happy there, serving your moon god! [/FONT]

 

[garee]

God doesn't say for a man to tell a woman what to believe ... She is free to believe anything she wishes ... God only instructs the man to tell her what is true ... After that she is free to do with it as she pleases ...

Works both both ways


God only instructs the woman to tell him what is true ... After that he is free to do with it as he pleases

 

[Pontiac]

This is why men should not be able to preach or teach. What does the verse actually say, when properly translated?

”For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.” 1 Tim. 2:5-6 NET

Who is this verse about? Is it about “men?” Or even humans?

NO! It is about Jesus Christ! And how he came to give himself as a ransom for ALL!

And if you want to exclude women from 1 Tim. 2:5, well, then you have literally excluded them from being saved. It doesn’t get much dummer than that.

And if you want to look at the Greek:

”εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,6 ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις·” 1 Tim. 2:5-6

As you can plainly see, the word “men” is actually the word ἀνθρώπων, anthropon, from the word ἄνθρωπος, being the genitive plural meaning “human, humanity.” Not the word “aner” which means man.

Now, I don’t know what translation you are using. It used to be that the male was inclusive of the female, in English, but that has changed. Another good reason to read a modern version, because that has changed in English. So, the translation might have been right even 25-30 years ago. But, now English has changed!

But, Koine Greek has not changed! Anthropos includes the female, it is non-specific and will remain that way in Greek. And God has not changed! He still includes women in his plan of redemption!

And my next question would be, have you even read 1 Corinthians? Chapter 11 is about a cultural issue - head coverings. This had something to do with married women versus prostitutes. In fact, Corinth was the city most famous in the first century, for its prostitutes, including cult prostitutes. This is because, it had 2 seaports, and lots of sailors.

So, Paul is talking about women covering their hair so they are not identified as prostitutes. I seriously don’t believe how people strain at gnats to try and prove women need some kind of man to run (ruin?) their lives. So glad my husband has a brain in his head.

I just provided the scripture ... I didn't write it, men inspired by God wrote it ...

When you say men should not be able to preach, you might want to be careful with that because that is in direct conflict with what the Bible very clearly says ...

 

[Pontiac]

The woman didn't sin by herself.
Adam sinned right along with the woman.

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. Romans 5:12-21

So, are you saying the Bible is wrong ? ... I just provided scripture ... I didn't give any opinion of my own in that post ...

1 Timothy 2:8-15 [SUP]8[/SUP]Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. [SUP]9[/SUP]I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, [SUP]10[/SUP]but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14[/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. [SUP]15[/SUP]But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

[garee]

What does it mean when it says "man is head of woman" ? ... That verse has no mention of any husband at all ...

It means the same way as the father is the head of the son as one work of faith mutually working together as a greater postion than the other. Not a greater authority. The father and the Son are one just, as the one creation, mankind. All the other beast of the field he made seperatly male and female. The other beast of the field were not created in the image of God.

 

[Pontiac]

It means the same way as the father is the head of the son as one work of faith mutually working together as a greater postion than the other. Not a greater authority. The father and the Son are one just, as the one creation, mankind. All the other beast of the field he made seperatly male and female. The other beast of the field were not created in the image of God.

Well, that philosophy doesn't exactly equate because it also says Christ is head of man ... So, are you saying Christ and man are of the same authority too ? ...

 

[garee]

Really ??? ... What are those last 5 words again ? ... "he shall rule over you" ... What would you suggest that this means ?

It means he should consel with his wife at home, not other woman at churh, and the same applies for the wife she has a husband at home. If they need help He has asigned elders.

Christianity elevated a woman to proper equal place like creation. If not the woman would all be like Muslem under the thumb.

 

[Angela53510]

I just provided the scripture ... I didn't write it, men inspired by God wrote it ...

When you say men should not be able to preach, you might want to be careful with that because that is in direct conflict with what the Bible very clearly says ...

And no sense of humour either! Sad!

 

[Pontiac]

And no sense of humour either! Sad!

Correct, when delivering God's word and people are not listening there is no place for humor ... God is serious and so is His word very serious ...

 

[Pontiac]

And the Avatar that you see is the "Knight of Truth" ... He is bound by scripture to repeat it exactly as it is written ... He cannot twist it as some do ... He has made a covenant with God to tell it exactly as it is no matter who is listening ... When he is not talking the Bible he has a great sense of humor ... Just not when he is delivering God's divine messages ...

 

[planitsoon]

A great little book to get insight why Paul was written thi and what was going on att he time.
https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Paul-Women-Unlocking-Background-ebook/dp/B00E66OF6O

 

[Angela53510]

Correct, when delivering God's word and people are not listening there is no place for humor ... God is serious and so is His word very serious ...

You really need to get out more!

Jesus had a sense of humour. It doesn’t come through in English, or even Greek very often. But when you translate some of his talks with people back to Aramaic, the language the common people used, there were loads of puns. Puns were the jokes of the 1st century.

I think I first read about this in Seminary, in a book. But the internet has some interesting articles in this topic!

http://aramaicnt.org/2013/02/28/there-is-no-shame-in-the-gospel-another-pun/


http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/preacherskid/2011/09/lost-in-translation-jesus-puns-and-john-the-baptists-word-play.html


https://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ca/&httpsredir=1&article=1502&context=wordways

My point being, you seem to be a sour old man who has lost his sense of humour, and somehow created God in your own image.

The Bible instructs us to be happy and rejoice. Most people are born with a sense of humour, if they haven’t quashed it with deadly legalism and being too full of themselves. Since God created us, we have no power to invent something as delightful as humour. Therefore, God wants us to laugh and enjoy the humour he endowed us with.

In fact, this over seriousness is pompous and arrogant. It reeks of church traditions and not the joy of walking with God! Besides, you’ve proven over and over your very limited understanding of what the Bible actually says, maybe God has brought you here in the hopes of opening up your horizons to the truth of what his Word really says!

I’m sorry if I seem harsh, because I do pray God will change you, and you will become happy. Stop thinking God needs you to defend his honour, and I hope you will learn to walk with Jesus as a little child. Such is the kingdom of God!
[FONT=&quot]
“[FONT=&quot]But Jesus called for the children, saying, “Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Luke 18:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

And in case you don’t get the reference, yes, little children are innocent, but they are also happy and joyfully and silly and they get over tired and sad, and they really need their mommies and daddies! Just as we need our Heavenly Father, all day long, every day![/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Pontiac]

You really need to get out more!

Jesus had a sense of humour. It doesn’t come through in English, or even Greek very often. But when you translate some of his talks with people back to Aramaic, the language the common people used, there were loads of puns. Puns were the jokes of the 1st century.

I think I first read about this in Seminary, in a book. But the internet has some interesting articles in this topic!

http://aramaicnt.org/2013/02/28/there-is-no-shame-in-the-gospel-another-pun/


http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/preacherskid/2011/09/lost-in-translation-jesus-puns-and-john-the-baptists-word-play.html


https://digitalcommons.butler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.ca/&httpsredir=1&article=1502&context=wordways

My point being, you seem to be a sour old man who has lost his sense of humour, and somehow created God in your own image.

The Bible instructs us to be happy and rejoice. Most people are born with a sense of humour, if they haven’t quashed it with deadly legalism and being too full of themselves. Since God created us, we have no power to invent something as delightful as humour. Therefore, God wants us to laugh and enjoy the humour he endowed us with.

In fact, this over seriousness is pompous and arrogant. It reeks of church traditions and not the joy of walking with God! Besides, you’ve proven over and over your very limited understanding of what the Bible actually says, maybe God has brought you here in the hopes of opening up your horizons to the truth of what his Word really says!

I’m sorry if I seem harsh, because I do pray God will change you, and you will become happy. Stop thinking God needs you to defend his honour, and I hope you will learn to walk with Jesus as a little child. Such is the kingdom of God!

“But Jesus called for the children, saying, “Let the little children come to me and do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” Luke 18:16

And in case you don’t get the reference, yes, little children are innocent, but they are also happy and joyfully and silly and they get over tired and sad, and they really need their mommies and daddies! Just as we need our Heavenly Father, all day long, every day!

I'm not interested in translating my Bible ... I like it just the way it is ...

 

[Angela53510]

I'm not interested in translating my Bible ... I like it just the way it is ...

Not sure what you mean by translating, but it truly is “your” Bible. As in, “not God’s!”

 

[Pontiac]

Not sure what you mean by translating, but it truly is “your” Bible. As in, “not God’s!”

That's right it is my Bible because God wanted for me to have it ... It was given to me when I was a child by my Sunday school teacher for memorizing all the books in the Bible ... God gave it to me through her as a reward ... I then neglected reading it for about 20 years and finally got straight with Him ... The book is mine, but the word's are His and I give each and every one of those words tremendous importance ... I don't attempt to twist any of them in order to fit my own personal agenda ... Whatever they say, is what I try to do and live by ...

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

And the Avatar that you see is the "Knight of Truth" ... He is bound by scripture to repeat it exactly as it is written ... He cannot twist it as some do ... He has made a covenant with God to tell it exactly as it is no matter who is listening ... When he is not talking the Bible he has a great sense of humor ... Just not when he is delivering God's divine messages ...

The Knights Templar today is a Masonic body. Freemasons. The headquarters are in London. Claiming to be Christian but mixed in with some spiritually dangerous practices.