Not By Works

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Originally Posted by benhur
All James is saying is that if you do not the works you were saved unto, then you were not really saved in the beginning, and you won't be saved in the ending.

Again WRONG (you focus to much on self (works) my friend)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with what you quoted from benhur, and he was certainly not focusing on "self". He was simply interpreting James correctly.

The Bible says that we are saved unto good works, so if these good works are absent, it confirms what James said. That so-called faith was not genuine faith, hence "dead". As long as everyone is clear that no one is saved by good works, works are essential in the Christian's walk. They are also external evidence of his internal faith in Christ.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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most
people will conflate this into "sinless perfection" which
makes salvation a revolving door theology

where salvation is entirely based on what you do
and Christ is an afterthought

just some addition to qualify those who will establish their own righteousness in His name

:(


and others think its more of a balance scale
"well if i do enough.. ill be ok"

such a shame
If you do not the good works that you were saved unto, what do you think will happen?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
If you do not the good works that you were saved unto, what do you think will happen?
if you are saved youre saved already

and the new heart and spirit in you (God willing)
will produce fruit in time
which will manifest as "works"

if you say oh i have faith

and you are not born again

obviously you werent saved unto anything
salvation or works

you are making a strawman in the form of an ill worded question

saved = forever


saving faith < works FOLLOW already saved forever (unto)

dead faith < void of works
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
[/I][/I]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what you quoted from benhur, and he was certainly not focusing on "self". He was simply interpreting James correctly.

The Bible says that we are saved unto good works, so if these good works are absent, it confirms what James said. That so-called faith was not genuine faith, hence "dead". As long as everyone is clear that no one is saved by good works, works are essential in the Christian's walk. They are also external evidence of his internal faith in Christ.
there is plenty wrong with pretty much everything ben says

he looks at works as a requirement for

not a product of
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
you are saved before you produce works

by grace through faith

and once God puts a new spirit and heart in you

you are always saved...

we are not of them who fall away into unbelief

and those who depart from faith were not of us



but also

when God puts a new heart and spirit in one of His adopted children sealed....
and kept by His power


the faith that precedes this....
has evidence in works after this...


you pretend as if one of Gods children kept by His power can lose his salvation despite the promises of God based on the works of this man/woman


God doesnt wait until He sees this man/womans works to determine if this man/womans faith was genuine before He adopts them


He sees the heart



MEN see works

which is the whole point dcon tried to show you..
bump for ben

(and anyone else who rejects we are saved by grace through faith)
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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same false dichotomy

then you get the same principal in hopes you see the truth
the same principal that is being said by Jesus there

is said by Jesus here

matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus asked was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

____________



again same principal

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
(again a man looking to be justified by works)
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
(this man believes he actually does this fully)
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
(Jesus says knowing this man is self righteous yaaa thats all you need then if you are correct)
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
(as if he truely does this knowing Jesus does not believe him asks ohhh who is my neighbor maybe i am wrong mockingly)


30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

____________


that amount of money
as well as offering for excess was .... a lot of money at that time....

this exposes that man who believed he was doing these things is actually wrong......

he does not love his enemy as himself as he ought to in order to be perfect

let alone his literal neighbor....


ben

youre constantly taking

reproof

instruction for righteousness

the law

and works

and trying to say a man needs more than grace or faith to be saved
Wonderful words, but read the parable of the merciful king and find out why the king (Jesus) withdrew his mercy?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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ben , dont you understand that once you trust Christ and are saved , you are never looked on as "full of sin" by God
We are looked on by God as righteous , even when we do sin , because its Jesus's righteousness that the Father sees , not our own
You also need to read the parable of the merciful king (Jesus) and why he withdrew his mercy, once given as a free gift to a big debtor? Why?
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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There are two kinds of works. the works of the flesh, by the works of ones hands, and the works of the spirit by the works of the mind that contains spiritual knowledge and understanding.,
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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wow. really?

You have been told how many times now and your still asking?

He spoke to those who CLAIMED to have faith. NOT to those who REALLY HAD FAITH. don't you know the difference?
Yes, do you? If you do, tell me what the difference is?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Again WRONG (you focus to much on self (works) my friend)

He is saying if you have a claimed faith (dead) only, it can't save you, because true living faith works. His focus is a dead faith vs true living faith. Not works.

Works are a byproduct of faith, Yet it is ONLY faith that saved via grace.
OK, I am going to go about this a different direction: We are saved unto good works, right? But you get lazy or you finally reject Jesus or for whatever reason, you do not those good works you were saved to do, then what happens?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Wonderful words, but read the parable of the merciful king and find out why the king (Jesus) withdrew his mercy?
Gods mercy is extended to all men

even the wicked servants

but unless you are born again

you arent saved....

read the whole chapter

from

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

unto

if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses



youre using the same argument


dead faith isnt saving faith

that servant is like the reprobates
(having a knowledge of Him then turning for love of the world... like the rich young man Jesus told to give up his things... having things isnt evil... but that mans love for his things showed his HEART for us to see.... Jesus knew before He asked him)


those who say Lord Lord are like the pharisees (trust in works... their own righteousness)




matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus asked was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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Hi E-g, If this were true I would expect that "Calvanism would be at the fore front of their debate and it is not, they are only arguing that a believer with out enough works will lose their salvation, no mention of Calvin or TULIP in this debate at all. I will keep what you say in mind when posting, God bless.
The question is not enough works and I will lose my salvation. The question is what works was I saved unto?
You have told me you were saved unto good works, right? Now tell me what good works were you saved to do?

Right, this is not about Calvinism. Calvinism says you are saved if God says it. You don't even know you are saved and you do not even know if you are unsaved. Pretty interesting.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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The flesh has nothing to do with good works, it is weak and it get tired and weary, but the spirit is always willing to continue to do good works in your heart.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
you are saved before you produce works

by grace through faith

and once God puts a new spirit and heart in you

you are always saved...

we are not of them who fall away into unbelief

and those who depart from faith were not of us



but also

when God puts a new heart and spirit in one of His adopted children sealed....
and kept by His power


the faith that precedes this....
has evidence in works after this...


you pretend as if one of Gods children kept by His power can lose his salvation despite the promises of God based on the works of this man/woman


God doesnt wait until He sees this man/womans works to determine if this man/womans faith was genuine before He adopts them


He sees the heart



MEN see works

which is the whole point dcon tried to show you..
Again, reread the parable of the merciful king (Jesus). Why did the merciful king (Jesus) withdraw his mercy that had been given as a free gift to the heavily debted man?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Gods mercy is extended to all men

even the wicked servants

but unless you are born again

you arent saved....

read the whole chapter

from

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

unto

if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses



youre using the same argument


dead faith isnt saving faith

that servant is like the reprobates
(having a knowledge of Him then turning for love of the world... like the rich young man Jesus told to give up his things... having things isnt evil... but that mans love for his things showed his HEART for us to see.... Jesus knew before He asked him)


those who say Lord Lord are like the pharisees (trust in works... their own righteousness)




matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

_________

Jesus asked was telling this man how to be perfect

this man believed his works regarding the commandments were perfect (including loving his neighbor as himself)

Jesus is saying ohhhhh is that so?

then give up all your things and follow me
(to expose where this mans heart really was)


22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
once this happens

(praise God)

Ezekiel 36:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

_________

this happens

1 peter

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


____________

and yes

works follow

but they dont add to this
or take from this

regardless wether or not you have eyes to see
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
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So I am a good Christian, bu disagree with you and I am a Troll?
with all due respect Ben , Im pretty sure you arent saved at all , being " good " has nothing to do with whether you are saved or not
We are saved by trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ , plus NOTHING added to that
From your posts , I cant see that you believe that
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
with all due respect Ben , Im pretty sure you arent saved at all , being " good " has nothing to do with whether you are saved or not
We are saved by trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ , plus NOTHING added to that
From your posts , I cant see that you believe that
romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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The kingdom of heaven is like professional sports , Many are called, but few are chosen. Get the picture?
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO POSSESS ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?

Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.


SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”


JESUS SAID;

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15


…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17


“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24


THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:

Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?

They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””



WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)

Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”


1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.


2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from
God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)


“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4