GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Shamah has admitted he knows me and clearly he is Shroom fom Bible Discussions.

Shroom2 was banned from here, see the link below, 5th post down.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/36175-gods-last-warning-message.html
I remember that name from the Bible Discussion website, which finally shut down a while back. That forum had just about become completely hi jacked by false teachers and it turned into an absolute war zone and the mods there did absolutely nothing about it! :(

I finally left that toxic environment soon before the website shut down. Thank God that we have mods here who do not allow that to happen to Christian Chat. :)
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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Re: Hebrews chapter 4

Jesus did fulfil the Mosaic Law that required sacrifice once and for all.

I'm putting you on ignore.
You ignored the rest of the quote.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

When did the rapture happen?
 
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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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Re: Hebrews chapter 4

You ignored the rest of the quote.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

When did the rapture happen?
I answered you, here is a copy and paste of my reply. Do you not understand what it means to have a NEW High Priest with NEW Commandments that are for ALL time?

Originally Posted by PS

The Ten Commandments are for all time, but the law and the prophets of the Old Testament were until John the Baptist. Now we have a new High Priest and new commandments. Jesus fulfilled the Old Law.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(Luk 16:16 KJV)
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Yes, that is the true God in the day of Judgement. In the meantime it is God's plan and purpose for all to turn to Him.
true God here?

Genesis 6: 7. Yhwh said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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The law will never fail, but God is able to change it.
yes
imo which laws God changed or are mediated differently today

that's the question people differ on
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
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Incorrect.

Matthew 5:13 to 20 NIV
Jesus saying he came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


List of the 613 laws in the Torah
All 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law of Moses

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

from that article

Rabbinic support for the number of commandments being 613 is not without dissent and, even as the number gained acceptance, difficulties arose in elucidating the list. Some rabbis declared that this count was not an authentic tradition, or that it was not logically possible to come up with a systematic count. No early work of*Jewish law*or Biblical commentary depended on the 613 system, and no early systems of*Jewish principles of faith*made acceptance of this*Aggadah(non-legal Talmudic statement) normative. The classical*Biblical commentator*and grammarian Rabbi*Abraham ibn Ezra*denied that this was an authentic rabbinic tradition. Ibn Ezra writes "Some sages enumerate 613 mitzvot in many diverse ways [...] but in truth there is no end to the number of mitzvot [...] and if we were to count only the root principles [...] the number of mitzvot would not reach 613" (Yesod Mora, Chapter 2).

Nahmanides*held that this particular counting was a matter of rabbinic*controversy, and that rabbinic opinion on this is not unanimous. Nonetheless, he concedes that "this total has proliferated throughout the aggadic literature... we ought to say that it was a tradition from Moses at*Mount Sinai" (Nahmanides, Commentary to Maimonides'*Sefer Hamitzvot'', Root Principle 1).

Rabbi*Simeon ben Zemah Duranlikewise rejected the dogma of the 613 as being the sum of the Law, saying that "perhaps the agreement that the number of mitzvot is 613... is just Rabbi Simlai's opinion, following his own explication of the mitzvot. And we need not rely on his explication when we come to determine [and affect] the Law, but rather on the Talmudic discussions" (Zohar Harakia, Lviv, 1858, p.*99).

Even when rabbis attempted to compile a list of the 613 commandments, they were faced with a number of difficulties:

Which statements were to be included amongst the 613 commandments? Every one of God's commands to any individual or to the entire people of Israel?

Would an order from God be counted as a commandment, for the purposes of such a list, if it could only be complied with in one place and time? Else, would such an order only count as a commandment if it could be followed at all times? (The latter is the view of*Maimonides.)

Does counting a single commandment depend on whether it falls within one verse, even though it may contain multiple prohibitions, or should each prohibition count as a single commandment?

Ultimately, though, the concept of 613 commandments has become accepted as normative amongst practicing Jews and today it is still common practice to refer to the total system of commandments within the Torah as the "613 commandments", even among those who do not literally accept this count as accurate.
 
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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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true God here?

Genesis 6: 7. Yhwh said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground
Yes, that is God. Notice he said I will do it. He did not tell anyone else, otherwise they would be Hell bound for disobeying the 6th commandment.

Saying "God told me to do it" after someone kills their wife is not a defence in law, and God's law is stricter.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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yes
imo which laws God changed or are mediated differently today

that's the question people differ on
It is the 613 Mitzvot Laws that God ended. It won't be the Ten Commandments and neither is it Christ's new commandments.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

from that article

Rabbinic support for the number of commandments being 613 is not without dissent and, even as the number gained acceptance, difficulties arose in elucidating the list. Some rabbis declared that this count was not an authentic tradition, or that it was not logically possible to come up with a systematic count. No early work of*Jewish law*or Biblical commentary depended on the 613 system, and no early systems of*Jewish principles of faith*made acceptance of this*Aggadah(non-legal Talmudic statement) normative. The classical*Biblical commentator*and grammarian Rabbi*Abraham ibn Ezra*denied that this was an authentic rabbinic tradition. Ibn Ezra writes "Some sages enumerate 613 mitzvot in many diverse ways [...] but in truth there is no end to the number of mitzvot [...] and if we were to count only the root principles [...] the number of mitzvot would not reach 613" (Yesod Mora, Chapter 2).

Nahmanides*held that this particular counting was a matter of rabbinic*controversy, and that rabbinic opinion on this is not unanimous. Nonetheless, he concedes that "this total has proliferated throughout the aggadic literature... we ought to say that it was a tradition from Moses at*Mount Sinai" (Nahmanides, Commentary to Maimonides'*Sefer Hamitzvot'', Root Principle 1).

Rabbi*Simeon ben Zemah Duranlikewise rejected the dogma of the 613 as being the sum of the Law, saying that "perhaps the agreement that the number of mitzvot is 613... is just Rabbi Simlai's opinion, following his own explication of the mitzvot. And we need not rely on his explication when we come to determine [and affect] the Law, but rather on the Talmudic discussions" (Zohar Harakia, Lviv, 1858, p.*99).

Even when rabbis attempted to compile a list of the 613 commandments, they were faced with a number of difficulties:

Which statements were to be included amongst the 613 commandments? Every one of God's commands to any individual or to the entire people of Israel?

Would an order from God be counted as a commandment, for the purposes of such a list, if it could only be complied with in one place and time? Else, would such an order only count as a commandment if it could be followed at all times? (The latter is the view of*Maimonides.)

Does counting a single commandment depend on whether it falls within one verse, even though it may contain multiple prohibitions, or should each prohibition count as a single commandment?

Ultimately, though, the concept of 613 commandments has become accepted as normative amongst practicing Jews and today it is still common practice to refer to the total system of commandments within the Torah as the "613 commandments", even among those who do not literally accept this count as accurate.
RED: Man-made laws, albeit with reference to scripture, but I question the source, I'm not totally convinced all Old Testament scripture was God inspired.
 
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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Yes, that is God. Notice he said I will do it. He did not tell anyone else, otherwise they would be Hell bound for disobeying the 6th commandment.

Saying "God told me to do it" after someone kills their wife is not a defence in law, and God's law is stricter.
is the true God behind the plague here

Numbers 25: 7. When Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand; 8. and he went after the man of Israel into the pavilion, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her body. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

is Phinehas doing the right thing?

Psalm 106: 30. Then Phinehas stood up, and executed judgment, so the plague was stopped. 31. That was credited to him for righteousness, for all generations to come.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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It is the 613 Mitzvot Laws that God ended. It won't be the Ten Commandments and neither is it Christ's new commandments.
the 10c aren't part of the 613?

is it basically that God ended every law on the ot, except the 10c?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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RED: Man-made laws, albeit with reference to scripture, but I question the source, I'm not totally convinced all Old Testament scripture was God inspired.
yes, i can understand that position
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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the 10c aren't part of the 613?

is it basically that God ended every law on the ot, except the 10c?
The 613 Mitzvot laws form the civil law, so thieves, adulterers etc. are dealt with according to those laws and the punishments given in them. They are not the Ten Commandments and I believe you are correct when you say God ended all laws in the OT except those given on Mount Sinai.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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is the true God behind the plague here

Numbers 25: 7. When Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand; 8. and he went after the man of Israel into the pavilion, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her body. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

is Phinehas doing the right thing?

Psalm 106: 30. Then Phinehas stood up, and executed judgment, so the plague was stopped. 31. That was credited to him for righteousness, for all generations to come.
This is one for Solomon. The Israelites were worshipping Baal of Peor and going with women. I wonder how many of the men were married and what their wives thought of their behaviour? Twenty-four thousand people died because of it. This is what happens when the Ten Commandments are disobeyed. If Moses had isolated everyone, the disease would not have spread and nature would have taken it's course. As it was they were killed anyway as the LORD commanded. I often wonder what LORD would command us to break his own commandments? Sometimes I wonder if the LORD who sat above the Mercy Seat in judgement was a man the same as we have our House of Lords in England.

Anyway you asked me a question, and personally I would have isolated the whole camp and not killed anyone, I believe the true God is a healing God, but however I look at it, I would not have broken the sixth commandment and possibly be sent to Hell for mass murder. Perhaps people would like to discuss it.

You see, if people had kept the Ten Commandments, it would never have happened. They are there for our protection.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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true God here?

Genesis 6: 7. Yhwh said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the surface of the ground
Yes

True Messiah here?



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 13:41-43, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."[/FONT]



an yes.

however this is falsehood:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Marcionism and Marcionites… What is Marcionism?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mar·cion·ism: the doctrinal system of a sect of the second and third centuries a.d. accepting some parts of the New Testament (Paul) but denying Christ's corporality and humanity and condemning the Creator God of the Old Testament.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known. The subject will be treated under the following heads..."


and... more truth:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:28, “You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:19-20, “Therefore [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]responded and said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son is able to do none at all by Himself, but only that which He sees the Father doing, because whatever He does, the Son also likewise does. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all that He Himself does. And greater works than these He is going to show Him, in order that you marvel.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]



[/FONT]
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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The 613 Mitzvot laws form the civil law, so thieves, adulterers etc. are dealt with according to those laws and the punishments given in them. They are not the Ten Commandments and I believe you are correct when you say God ended all laws in the OT except those given on Mount Sinai.
i can see that

then the fourth commandment is just relaxed or changed from Sat to Sun by God operating thru the church, maybe
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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This is one for Solomon. The Israelites were worshipping Baal of Peor and going with women. I wonder how many of the men were married and what their wives thought of their behaviour? Twenty-four thousand people died because of it. This is what happens when the Ten Commandments are disobeyed. If Moses had isolated everyone, the disease would not have spread and nature would have taken it's course. As it was they were killed anyway as the LORD commanded. I often wonder what LORD would command us to break his own commandments? Sometimes I wonder if the LORD who sat above the Mercy Seat in judgement was a man the same as we have our House of Lords in England.

Anyway you asked me a question, and personally I would have isolated the whole camp and not killed anyone, I believe the true God is a healing God, but however I look at it, I would not have broken the sixth commandment and possibly be sent to Hell for mass murder. Perhaps people would like to discuss it.

You see, if people had kept the Ten Commandments, it would never have happened. They are there for our protection.
yes, i agree,
This is one for Solomon.

is Phinehas doing the right thing here?

Psalm 106: 30. Then Phinehas stood up, and executed judgment, so the plague was stopped. 31. That was credited to him for righteousness, for all generations to come.

or maybe ps106 isn't inspired
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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695
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yes, i agree,
This is one for Solomon.

is Phinehas doing the right thing here?

Psalm 106: 30. Then Phinehas stood up, and executed judgment, so the plague was stopped. 31. That was credited to him for righteousness, for all generations to come.

or maybe ps106 isn't inspired
I have been turning this over in my mind. Clearly they were living lives of debauchery they were far from God, worshipping Baal, the idols had their prophets, and the LORD may well have been the Lord of Baal?

The upshot is, they shouldn't have been there in the first place, Moses should have stamped it out immediately, and he should not have broken the 6th commandment. These are a people far from the true God who must have been deeply saddened. No, I don't believe any of this was down to Yahweh. It is what I was saying last night, it was truly the work of the imposter. Who won a double victory by getting people to believe it was the true God who gets the blame instead of the blame being placed squarely on Satan.
 
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Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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I have been turning this over in my mind. Clearly they were living lives of debauchery they were far from God, worshipping Baal, the idols had their prophets, and the LORD may well have been the Lord of Baal?

The upshot is, they shouldn't have been there in the first place, Moses should have stamped it out immediately, and he should not have broken the 6th commandment. These are a people far from the true God who must have been deeply saddened. No, I don't believe any of this was down to Yahweh. It is what I was saying last night, it was truly the work of the imposter. Who won a double victory by getting people to believe it was the true God who gets the blame instead of the blame being placed squarely on Satan.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Kings 22:5-7, "And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “Inquire first for the word of the Lord.” Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go to battle against Ramoth-gilead, or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there not here another prophet of the Lord of whom we may inquire?” ESV[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Kings 22:5-7, "And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Inquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day. Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king. And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?" KJV[/FONT]






[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Kings 22:5-7, “Then Yahshaphat said to the king of Israyl; But inquire this day for the counsel and advice of YHWH (#H3068-YHWH). So the king of Israyl assembled together the prophets--about four hundred men, and asked them; Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain? They all answered him: Go up! The Lord (#H136-Adonay), will deliver it into the hands of the king! But Yahshaphat asked; Is there no longer a prophet of YHWH (#H3068-YHWH) here, so we may inquire of Him?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Kings 22:5-7, “And Yehoshaphat said to the sovereign of Yisra’yl, “Please, first inquire for the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](#H3068-YHWH), "And the sovereign of Yisra’yl gathered the prophets, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Do I go against Ramoth Gil‛aḏ to battle, or do I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for The Lord (#H136-Adonay) does give it into the hand of the sovereign. And Yehoshaphat said, “Is there not here a prophet of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](#H3068-YHWH), that we might inquire of Him?”[/FONT]