The Rapture
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I appreciate your post. To clarify I didn't say anything about you being insane. Cognitive dissonance is a psychological term about the difficulty of keeping 2 opposing concepts in your mind at the same time. It creates a conflict that can be mentally uncomfortable. It happens especially when we need to decide what optional paths we will take. Working out the pros and cons of each path leads to this issue.
I detest the way too short 5 minute rule!! This site while much better still has problems using my Samsung tablet with the SwiftKey keyboard. Punctuation gets to be a big problem. Also the prediction part of this keyboard has problems with this site inserting the prediction when I am typing. I usually have to go back and fix problems. Then using the back button I can capture what I posted about half the time. Only on this site does that method ever fail. Cut and paste doesn't always work on this site.
The original language of the Bible is the only true word of God. Herein lies the first problem. Which are the real original language texts. There are many and there are obvious problems with each. They end up creating hopefully the correct text by keeping the errors out of the working copy of them. Herein lies another problem with the KJV. Newer and better versions of the original language texts have been found after1600. Using computers to hold these texts helps a lot. There are newer KJV versions that try to remove all of these problems. Some just update the language issues and other the original text issues. So which KJV is the real KJV. Have fun figuring that one out!!
Salvation includes the deliverance of the body, soul, and spirit from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin. God's ultimate goal is the TOTAL PERFECTION of the saint in an immortal glorified body. Hence while justification is an accomplished fact, sanctification is progressive, and glorification is final at the Resurrection/ Rapture. And that is the COMPLETION of salvation.
Agreed! But to get on the same page all I can do is argue with a Scofield edition KJV bible. I'm not familiar enough with any others. Also I've read it so much in my life that I can understand 99.8 percent of Old English now. So what am I to do? I can't argue all versions of the Bible can I now? I do read modern versions but have not dedicated my life to them as to know them like the back of my hand.
There is no doubt in my mind that Revelation was the last book of the Bible to be authored. I think we already discussed this. There is one AND ONLY ONE source which hints at a 81-96 AD timing and that source is a 2nd century French writer, St. Irenaeus who had GET THIS - ZERO first hand knowledge.
Revelation was written to 7 specific first century churches in modern day Turkey located in close proximity to Patmos, where John was sent by Nero. The events in Revelation were virtually ALL fulfilled in the War of the Jews with Rome with the exception of a tiny piece of Rev 20.
666 ties directly to Nero.
Nero Caesar fits the gematria code number "666." Using this code, his name would be rendered as "NRWN QSR." (NRWN QSR). The number values are:
Revelation was written to 7 specific first century churches in modern day Turkey located in close proximity to Patmos, where John was sent by Nero. The events in Revelation were virtually ALL fulfilled in the War of the Jews with Rome with the exception of a tiny piece of Rev 20.
666 ties directly to Nero.
John wrote that the number "is the number of a man's name; and his number is 666." This tells us that those who received the "mark" were actually in allegiance with a "man," an actual person of the first century. So, who was he? Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus! Better known as Nero Caesar. John used a puzzle called gematria in which numbers are used to represent certain letters. John used this puzzle to reveal Nero without actually writing down his name. Remember, the early churches were being persecuted during this time—not only from the Jews, but also from the Romans. The numerical values of the Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are:
N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200
Nero was also called "a beast" by Roman writers in his day. R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200
The reference to my saying " The Resurrection at the 2nd coming of Jesus.." was a generalization to show a point. Not meant to be a specific Biblical reference Ahwatukee. You do take things and run with them don't you?
There are three views or theories of when the Rapture will occur:
1st- Just before the Beginning of the Last 7 years of Israel as stated in Daniel
2nd- In the Middle of the 7 year period but before the 3 and a half year Great Tribulation Period
3rd- At the coming of Jesus at the end of the Tribulation period and at the end of Israel's last 7 years before Jesus takes over.
Those of us who study the Bible know that the Church is taken before the Great Tribulation Period that happens in the last 7 years of Israel before Jesus comes so we know to throw the third theory out.
So really we debate about the 1st and 2nd theory.
You say it happens before the 7 year period.
I never even cared because just to miss the Great Tribulation period was my aim.
Without God specifying between the 2 theories there was no way to know for sure.
Apparently I claim that an Angel of God has clarified that it will happen in the middle of this 7 year period.
I understand that this Angel contradicts your theory of the Rapture happening before the 7 year period.
Now are the 4 choices before us.
1 - I am Crazy
2- I am Lying
3- The Angel is a Demon in disguise as an Angel and is lying through me
4- The Angel is of God and speaks the Truth
We've been given a sign in May of this year.
I've clarified what I will do if this does not come to pass.
I've asked you personally Ahwatukee what you will do if it does. You have not stated anything. WHY?
Time to MAN UP and give me an answer Ahwatukee!
There are three views or theories of when the Rapture will occur:
1st- Just before the Beginning of the Last 7 years of Israel as stated in Daniel
2nd- In the Middle of the 7 year period but before the 3 and a half year Great Tribulation Period
3rd- At the coming of Jesus at the end of the Tribulation period and at the end of Israel's last 7 years before Jesus takes over.
Those of us who study the Bible know that the Church is taken before the Great Tribulation Period that happens in the last 7 years of Israel before Jesus comes so we know to throw the third theory out.
So really we debate about the 1st and 2nd theory.
You say it happens before the 7 year period.
I never even cared because just to miss the Great Tribulation period was my aim.
Without God specifying between the 2 theories there was no way to know for sure.
Apparently I claim that an Angel of God has clarified that it will happen in the middle of this 7 year period.
I understand that this Angel contradicts your theory of the Rapture happening before the 7 year period.
Now are the 4 choices before us.
1 - I am Crazy
2- I am Lying
3- The Angel is a Demon in disguise as an Angel and is lying through me
4- The Angel is of God and speaks the Truth
We've been given a sign in May of this year.
I've clarified what I will do if this does not come to pass.
I've asked you personally Ahwatukee what you will do if it does. You have not stated anything. WHY?
Time to MAN UP and give me an answer Ahwatukee!
What are you talking about now? Where is it written that all life on planet Earth would be erased in some future (to us) great tribulation? There is no great tribulation mentioned after the one which hit Israel in 70 AD.
You need to study how first century men spoke and understood the world they lived in in their era. The Roman Empire was consider the "inhabitable earth" almost as if nobody outside the empire existed. Nobody wrote about China, Australia, or the Americas.
None of the Biblical writers had any concept of a nuclear holocaust. Listen, I understand your desire (and that of many) to understand future events but you continue to apply completed past history, now citing Isaiah as if he had nothing relevant to say to people of his day and instead was focused on events thousands of years away. At the end of Isaiah (65-66) he sees the end of Israel in 70 AD and relates the arrival of Messiah to that time. But, he has nothing to add beyond 70 AD. Most of his writings dealt with the pending conquering judgment of Israel by Babylon and the pending desolation and captivity soon coming to his people in their day, then the restoration to Israel 70 years later. Isaiah wrote about Israel, not America. He had no concept or knowledge of the 20th or 21st or 31st century.
You need to study how first century men spoke and understood the world they lived in in their era. The Roman Empire was consider the "inhabitable earth" almost as if nobody outside the empire existed. Nobody wrote about China, Australia, or the Americas.
None of the Biblical writers had any concept of a nuclear holocaust. Listen, I understand your desire (and that of many) to understand future events but you continue to apply completed past history, now citing Isaiah as if he had nothing relevant to say to people of his day and instead was focused on events thousands of years away. At the end of Isaiah (65-66) he sees the end of Israel in 70 AD and relates the arrival of Messiah to that time. But, he has nothing to add beyond 70 AD. Most of his writings dealt with the pending conquering judgment of Israel by Babylon and the pending desolation and captivity soon coming to his people in their day, then the restoration to Israel 70 years later. Isaiah wrote about Israel, not America. He had no concept or knowledge of the 20th or 21st or 31st century.
No it won't and that was never the intent of Jesus' prediction - you are under delusion with your Darbyesque "understanding".
Let's see what a learned scholar has to say:
Adam Clarke's commentary:
Verse 21
For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Savior, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.
2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God's judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. 4.
Verse 22
Except those days should be shortened - Josephus computes the number of those who perished in the siege at eleven hundred thousand, besides those who were slain in other places, War, b. vi. c. 9; and if the Romans had gone on destroying in this manner, the whole nation of the Jews would, in a short time, have been entirely extirpated; but, for the sake of the elect, the Jews, that they might not be utterly destroyed, and for the Christians particularly, the days were shortened.
These, partly through the fury of the zealots on one hand, and the hatred of the Romans on the other; and partly through the difficulty of subsisting in the mountains without houses or provisions, would in all probability have been all destroyed, either by the sword or famine, if the days had not been shortened.
The besieged themselves helped to shorten those days by their divisions and mutual slaughters; and by fatally deserting their strong holds, where they never could have been subdued, but by famine alone. So well fortified was Jerusalem, and so well provided to stand a siege, that the enemy without could not have prevailed, had it not been for the factions and seditions within.
When Titus was viewing the fortifications after the taking of the city, he could not help ascribing his success to God. "We have fought," said he, "with God on our side; and it is God who pulled the Jews out of these strong holds: for what could machines or the hands of men avail against such towers as these?" War, b. vi. c. 9.
Let's see what a learned scholar has to say:
Adam Clarke's commentary:
Verse 21
For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Savior, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.
2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God's judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. 4.
Verse 22
Except those days should be shortened - Josephus computes the number of those who perished in the siege at eleven hundred thousand, besides those who were slain in other places, War, b. vi. c. 9; and if the Romans had gone on destroying in this manner, the whole nation of the Jews would, in a short time, have been entirely extirpated; but, for the sake of the elect, the Jews, that they might not be utterly destroyed, and for the Christians particularly, the days were shortened.
These, partly through the fury of the zealots on one hand, and the hatred of the Romans on the other; and partly through the difficulty of subsisting in the mountains without houses or provisions, would in all probability have been all destroyed, either by the sword or famine, if the days had not been shortened.
The besieged themselves helped to shorten those days by their divisions and mutual slaughters; and by fatally deserting their strong holds, where they never could have been subdued, but by famine alone. So well fortified was Jerusalem, and so well provided to stand a siege, that the enemy without could not have prevailed, had it not been for the factions and seditions within.
When Titus was viewing the fortifications after the taking of the city, he could not help ascribing his success to God. "We have fought," said he, "with God on our side; and it is God who pulled the Jews out of these strong holds: for what could machines or the hands of men avail against such towers as these?" War, b. vi. c. 9.
HAHAHAHAH, LOL. Is that why you can leave Judea to avoid it??? Read the text my dear fellow.
They fled over the mountains. Now how would you flee a world wide "great tribulation" by fleeing over the mountains of Judea? Do you have any explanation for how that would be possible? Besides, how many people are on their house tops today (very common in the first century without A/C). How many in the world today are going to be out in the fields? And why would anyone, other than devout Jews, care if it's the Sabbath? Would that stop us from fleeing? This whole passage screams, "ancient Jewish world" and lo and beyond something indeed very bad happened to them just 40 years after Christ said it.
Common dear fellow, it's not too late for you to wake up and stop this nonsense.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
They fled over the mountains. Now how would you flee a world wide "great tribulation" by fleeing over the mountains of Judea? Do you have any explanation for how that would be possible? Besides, how many people are on their house tops today (very common in the first century without A/C). How many in the world today are going to be out in the fields? And why would anyone, other than devout Jews, care if it's the Sabbath? Would that stop us from fleeing? This whole passage screams, "ancient Jewish world" and lo and beyond something indeed very bad happened to them just 40 years after Christ said it.
Common dear fellow, it's not too late for you to wake up and stop this nonsense.
A problem I come across with those who specifically will not even look at another bible but literally only for the KJV 1611 is the mindset that the KJV 1611 is a 100 perfect translation.
Even though with me, in my studies, I don't rely on the KJV only, I rely on other English translations for comparison, then cross check with strong's concordance.
A problem with the KJV 1611 for nowadays is that there will be some english words used back then are by today's standards archaic, and also used differently to how we use it today (or use alternate words that have same meaning)
Another issue, which is of concern, is that some of the older manuscripts that were found later as the years went by, what I find to be of concern is that some of the oldest manuscripts concerned did not have passages that were apparently in the manuscripts used for the KJV? So you have a more newer manuscript that has passages that were not in the older manuscripts found. That is very strange.
Example, the oldest manuscript known to date, and I think there is more than one, cannot recall exactly, is the Papyrus 115 which in the oldest manuscript known at this stage, has the number of the beast as 616 (chi iota sigma) not 666 (chi xi sigma).
Even though with me, in my studies, I don't rely on the KJV only, I rely on other English translations for comparison, then cross check with strong's concordance.
A problem with the KJV 1611 for nowadays is that there will be some english words used back then are by today's standards archaic, and also used differently to how we use it today (or use alternate words that have same meaning)
Another issue, which is of concern, is that some of the older manuscripts that were found later as the years went by, what I find to be of concern is that some of the oldest manuscripts concerned did not have passages that were apparently in the manuscripts used for the KJV? So you have a more newer manuscript that has passages that were not in the older manuscripts found. That is very strange.
Example, the oldest manuscript known to date, and I think there is more than one, cannot recall exactly, is the Papyrus 115 which in the oldest manuscript known at this stage, has the number of the beast as 616 (chi iota sigma) not 666 (chi xi sigma).
Reread what you quoted!! To the mountains not over them. Several times those running from the Law or not wanting to be found go and hide in the mountains. It would literally require a whole lot of troops keeping in sight of each other going up a mountain to possibly find someone hiding there. Several manhunts have had to just wait and try to capture the person when they came down for supplies.
Your preterist view of eschatology is extremely flawed. One of the signs the antichrist is the abomination of desecration of the temple. That never happened in 70AD. One was planned for a gold statue of the Caeser to be placed in the temple. The Roman army was ready to carry out putting it there. The statue was damaged so it never took place. Also read Revelation about the wrath of God being poured out on earth. At one point 1/3 of the people were killed. Massive destruction and death. Read what the trumpets announcing and then the bowls pouring devastation. Then the 4 horsemen ride killing as they go. The antichrist will take command of all of the world.
Please explain where these things happened in 70AD!!! As I said your eschatology is extremely flawed.
Please explain where these things happened in 70AD!!! As I said your eschatology is extremely flawed.
It is your opinion that it ALWAYS refers to the body, else show the Scriptures that supports what you are teaching now. The body when dead, is dead, and rot, and turn to dust again, the flesh does not sleep. But the spirit that is in a person does or does not sleep. Because the spirit that is in a person can't die, that spirit will either live forever in Heaven or live forever separated from God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
When does the Christian Spirit return to God, ON JUDGEMENT DAY. The Day that the Books are opened, and the dead spirits that are sleeping will rise first. The rest of the dead restless spirits will not return to God until the Great White Throne Judgement to be Judged and cast into hell fire.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
So then her flesh was dead, not alive. And her spirit returned to the girls body and then she lived. Flesh without the spirit is dead flesh. The Spirit can't be killed nor can it die. that spirit (NOT THE FLESH) will inherit everlasting life or everlasting punishment, one or the other. True Christians who die, their flesh will return to dust, and expire, but their spirit will sleep until Resurrection Day (Rapture)
True Christian spirits SLEEP, All others do not sleep. Conscious awareness of the spirit after death is by them how are NOT SLEEPING in Christ.
Now lets look at what those verses actually says, and not what Ahwatukee thinks they say.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Does anyone else see where this says the dead go to be with Jesus immediately after death? It does not say that at all, nor does it even imply that is the TRUTH. This verse is specifically talking about how the Apostle FEELS. i have a desire to be with Christ too. i have a desire to die right now and to be with Christ, does that mean because that is MY DESIRE, that when i die i immediately go to be with Jesus? Really because i desire to be with Christ that means i will be when i die? You do error not understand the context of the above verse. What it actually says is the Apostle saying "i would rather die and be with Christ" it does not say what you are saying that when a person dies, they immediately go to be with Jesus Christ. Can you not see how your interpretations of the Word of God are in error, this is but one example of it. You teach the sheep that when they die they immediately go to be with Jesus in Heaven, and then use a verse to back up that false doctrine which does not in any way whatsoever teach that nonsense, but you teach it as TRUTH. There is ONLY ONE DAY that will determine who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, and that is Judgment Day when the Book of Life is opened and if your name is found there then and ONLY THEN, are you going to be with Jesus for ever and ever.
let look at the next verse that YOU reference to mean when you die you immediately go to Heaven to be with Jesus.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing RATHER to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Yet again we see how YOU interpret the Word of God. This verse does not teach what you teach neither one of the verses which you refer to teaches what you say here. NOT ONE OF THEM. But Your interpretations see what you see don't they. Again, you teach something that is YOUR OPINION, and then use Scriptures to back up that opinion, which the very Scriptures you use, DON'T back it up at all. sigh . .. . ...
If it reads like a parable, sounds like a parable, acts like a parable, in the midst of all the other parables, Don't you know it is a parable, or has your interpretation convinced you it is a TRUE event?
Which one of the following is a parable and which one is a True event?
There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple
There was a certain rich man, which had a steward
The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;
A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
A certain man had two sons:
A certain nobleman went into a far country
ALL these are PARABLES.
A few websites that talk about this can be found at the following:
Can't be literal 1
Can't be Literal 2
Can't be Literal 3
True Meaning of the Lazarus Parable
A wise person would study the websites that reveal both sides, and then determine which one is more Scripturally True.
Ahwatukee, Still waiting to hear from you about Zechariah chapter 14 and where does that fit into your interpretations?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
When does the Christian Spirit return to God, ON JUDGEMENT DAY. The Day that the Books are opened, and the dead spirits that are sleeping will rise first. The rest of the dead restless spirits will not return to God until the Great White Throne Judgement to be Judged and cast into hell fire.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
So then her flesh was dead, not alive. And her spirit returned to the girls body and then she lived. Flesh without the spirit is dead flesh. The Spirit can't be killed nor can it die. that spirit (NOT THE FLESH) will inherit everlasting life or everlasting punishment, one or the other. True Christians who die, their flesh will return to dust, and expire, but their spirit will sleep until Resurrection Day (Rapture)
True Christian spirits SLEEP, All others do not sleep. Conscious awareness of the spirit after death is by them how are NOT SLEEPING in Christ.
Now lets look at what those verses actually says, and not what Ahwatukee thinks they say.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Does anyone else see where this says the dead go to be with Jesus immediately after death? It does not say that at all, nor does it even imply that is the TRUTH. This verse is specifically talking about how the Apostle FEELS. i have a desire to be with Christ too. i have a desire to die right now and to be with Christ, does that mean because that is MY DESIRE, that when i die i immediately go to be with Jesus? Really because i desire to be with Christ that means i will be when i die? You do error not understand the context of the above verse. What it actually says is the Apostle saying "i would rather die and be with Christ" it does not say what you are saying that when a person dies, they immediately go to be with Jesus Christ. Can you not see how your interpretations of the Word of God are in error, this is but one example of it. You teach the sheep that when they die they immediately go to be with Jesus in Heaven, and then use a verse to back up that false doctrine which does not in any way whatsoever teach that nonsense, but you teach it as TRUTH. There is ONLY ONE DAY that will determine who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, and that is Judgment Day when the Book of Life is opened and if your name is found there then and ONLY THEN, are you going to be with Jesus for ever and ever.
let look at the next verse that YOU reference to mean when you die you immediately go to Heaven to be with Jesus.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing RATHER to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Yet again we see how YOU interpret the Word of God. This verse does not teach what you teach neither one of the verses which you refer to teaches what you say here. NOT ONE OF THEM. But Your interpretations see what you see don't they. Again, you teach something that is YOUR OPINION, and then use Scriptures to back up that opinion, which the very Scriptures you use, DON'T back it up at all. sigh . .. . ...
If it reads like a parable, sounds like a parable, acts like a parable, in the midst of all the other parables, Don't you know it is a parable, or has your interpretation convinced you it is a TRUE event?
Which one of the following is a parable and which one is a True event?
There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple
There was a certain rich man, which had a steward
The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;
A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
A certain man had two sons:
A certain nobleman went into a far country
ALL these are PARABLES.
A few websites that talk about this can be found at the following:
Can't be literal 1
Can't be Literal 2
Can't be Literal 3
True Meaning of the Lazarus Parable
A wise person would study the websites that reveal both sides, and then determine which one is more Scripturally True.
Ahwatukee, Still waiting to hear from you about Zechariah chapter 14 and where does that fit into your interpretations?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
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