GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[Studyman]

Jesus did not think working on the Sabbath was unlawful.

You see Jesus was what we might call today a "people person" and people came first in everything. I know for a fact Jesus would not have a problem with doctors and nurses working, or anyone in social services, and in my estimation their work is "unto the Lord."

Jesus said by their fruit are they known, and I am sure their work is blessed by God.

I still have not found where it is against God's Sabbath for Jesus or any Priest to heal on the Sabbath Day. Was that not the duty of the Priest?

While I agree that Jesus broke the "Commandments of Men" that the Pharisees taught for doctrines, I find no Law of God against helping a Brother in need, or walking in fellowship with the Christ and picking a strawberry on His Sabbath.

Can you show me support, other than the word's of preachers Jesus told us were liars, where God's Laws prohibit these things?

 

[Magenta]

I still have not found where it is against God's Sabbath for Jesus or any Priest to heal on the Sabbath Day. Was that not the duty of the Priest?

While I agree that Jesus broke the "Commandments of Men" that the Pharisees taught for doctrines, I find no Law of God against helping a Brother in need, or walking in fellowship with the Christ and picking a strawberry on His Sabbath.

Can you show me support, other than the word's of preachers Jesus told us were liars, where God's Laws prohibit these things?

It was unlawful for the healed man to pick up his mat, because even that act was considered work. If something as small as that was counted as work and sinful on the Sabbath, gosh, where did it end?

 

[Studyman]

It was unlawful for the healed man to pick up his mat, because even that act was considered work. If something as small as that was counted as work and sinful on the Sabbath, gosh, where did it end?

Who condemned the man? Was it the Word which became Flesh, or the Preachers of that time who Jesus said were the servants of satan? What would you have the man do after he was healed? Stay in bed until the Sabbath was over? Is that what the Law and Prophets teach? I think it is a mistake to take the side of the mainstream preachers of that time.

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Let me ask you something. What is the difference between this and the command Jesus gave to the rest of us?

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Are we not to do this even on His Sabbath that He created for man?

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

If you study the Law and Prophets you will see the condemnation of this man is unjust. He was doing as His Savior told Him to do, despite what the Mainstream Preachers of his time taught.

It is a great story for our time.

 

[Dan_473]

Like I said Dan,

For some reason you seem incapable of even beginning to understand what my post is demonstrating, and seem to all but ignore it, which goes a long way towards answering your question about Sampson. If you refuse, or are incapable of comprehending the post above, which is to the heart of your question about Sampson, then it would be vain to continue.

I already demonstrated my willingness to discuss your question, you are the one who refuses to engage.

perhaps i don't understand what your post is demonstrating

or maybe i understand and reject your approach

they are simple questions

you can answer them directly or not, it's up to you

is it killing or murdering that Sampson does?

is he led by the spirit?

 

[Magenta]

Who condemned the man? Was it the Word which became Flesh, or the Preachers of that time who Jesus said were the servants of satan? What would you have the man do after he was healed? Stay in bed until the Sabbath was over? Is that what the Law and Prophets teach? I think it is a mistake to take the side of the mainstream preachers of that time.

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Let me ask you something. What is the difference between this and the command Jesus gave to the rest of us?

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Are we not to do this even on His Sabbath that He created for man?

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

If you study the Law and Prophets you will see the condemnation of this man is unjust. He was doing as His Savior told Him to do, despite what the Mainstream Preachers of his time taught.

It is a great story for our time.

Did you answer the question? I don't need a lecture from you. His act of picking up his mat was considered unlawful. Can you agree with that or not? If you accept the testimony of Scripture, a simple yes or no should suffice, and yes would be the correct answer.

 

[Studyman]

perhaps i don't understand what your post is demonstrating

or maybe i understand and reject your approach

they are simple questions

you can answer them directly or not, it's up to you

is it killing or murdering that Sampson does?

is he led by the spirit?

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The Sampson Story, which was written for your and my admonition, was inspired by God. It was written for our instruction in righteousness. It is Spiritual in nature, and designed for reproof and correction.

You are using it to support your religious tradition instead of as a lesson for our admonition. You are looking to Judge God and/or Sampson of murder instead of trying to find the Spiritual lesson Jesus created it for.

The OT wasn't written for you to Judge God or Sampson by, but for you to learn by. The question shouldn't be "Is God and/or Sampson a murderer, Rather, what is the Sampson story Jesus had written for me to teach me? I'm quite sure it isn't to convince you He is a murderer. This is how I see the scriptures, I can't see them any differently. Therefore our disagreement.

 

[Studyman]

Did you answer the question? I don't need a lecture from you. His act of picking up his mat was considered unlawful. Can you agree with that or not? If you accept the testimony of Scripture, a simple yes or no should suffice, and yes would be the correct answer.

The Word which became Flesh didn't condemn his act as unlawful, The Law and Prophets doesn't condemn his act as unlawful and neither do I.

Only you and the servants of satan Jesus called the Pharisees consider his act as unlawful.


So I'm going with the Christ on this one. "NO" his act of obeying the Word which became Flesh is not unlawful.

 

[Dan_473]

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The Sampson Story, which was written for your and my admonition, was inspired by God. It was written for our instruction in righteousness. It is Spiritual in nature, and designed for reproof and correction.

You are using it to support your religious tradition instead of as a lesson for our admonition. You are looking to Judge God and/or Sampson of murder instead of trying to find the Spiritual lesson Jesus created it for.

The OT wasn't written for you to Judge God or Sampson by, but for you to learn by. The question shouldn't be "Is God and/or Sampson a murderer, Rather, what is the Sampson story Jesus had written for me to teach me? I'm quite sure it isn't to convince you He is a murderer. This is how I see the scriptures, I can't see them any differently. Therefore our disagreement.

"...what is the Sampson story Jesus had written for me*to teach me?"

i believe it's to teach us that we don't need to follow the letter of the law

because Sampson murders, and the story implies that it's by the power of God's spirit

 

[Dan_473]

The Word which became Flesh didn't condemn his act as unlawful, The Law and Prophets doesn't condemn his act as unlawful and neither do I.

Only you and the servants of satan Jesus called the Pharisees consider his act as unlawful.


So I'm going with the Christ on this one. "NO" his act of obeying the Word which became Flesh is not unlawful.

' "NO" his act of obeying the Word which became Flesh is not unlawful.'

thus, if the spirit of Christ tells you to do something, it's the right thing to do, even if it breaks the letter of the law

 

[Endoscopy]

Oh dear me.

How do you define Christianity?

The early elders created the Apostles Creed to define who is and isn't a Christian!

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. This is an upgrade of the Roman Creed created in the 200s. This Creed is dated to 312.


I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.


Amen.


Probable wording of the Roman Creed.


Roman Creed


I believe in God the Father almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh.

 

[Endoscopy]

Who condemned the man? Was it the Word which became Flesh, or the Preachers of that time who Jesus said were the servants of satan? What would you have the man do after he was healed? Stay in bed until the Sabbath was over? Is that what the Law and Prophets teach? I think it is a mistake to take the side of the mainstream preachers of that time.

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Let me ask you something. What is the difference between this and the command Jesus gave to the rest of us?

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Are we not to do this even on His Sabbath that He created for man?

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

If you study the Law and Prophets you will see the condemnation of this man is unjust. He was doing as His Savior told Him to do, despite what the Mainstream Preachers of his time taught.

It is a great story for our time.

Do you have an understanding of what a person was allowed to do on the Sabbath? How far could they walk? Are you saying that man had to go to the temple and leave his bedding laying where a thief could take it?? Methinks you need to rethink what you said.

 

[Studyman]

' "NO" his act of obeying the Word which became Flesh is not unlawful.'

thus, if the spirit of Christ tells you to do something, it's the right thing to do, even if it breaks the letter of the law

Can you show me where it is against God's Law for Jesus to heal this man? Or against God's Law for a healed Cripple to carry his crutches or bed back to his home?

You are creating a Law where one does not exist, just like the Pharisees did.

 

[Studyman]

Do you have an understanding of what a person was allowed to do on the Sabbath? How far could they walk? Are you saying that man had to go to the temple and leave his bedding laying where a thief could take it?? Methinks you need to rethink what you said.

I have no idea what you are speaking to. The man was perfectly in God's Law carrying his crutch or bed home after he was healed. I never implied any differently.

 

[Endoscopy]

I have no idea what you are speaking to. The man was perfectly in God's Law carrying his crutch or bed home after he was healed. I never implied any differently.

I agree. My point is most have a misunderstanding of what is allowed. For example food for the Sabbath must be completed by sunset of Friday. I traveled to Israel several times for work. On Saturday the places to get food that were run by believing Jews set up a self serve bar Friday before sunset. Secular businesses didn't bother with that.

There is a Sabbaths walk allowed to go to the temple. If memory serves it is over 2.5 miles.

 

[Cee]

Just so people have an idea of what keeping the Sabbath looks like and all the other laws.

Here's a not so commonly known Sabbath Scripture:
Ex. 35:2-3 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, ba sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

This is of course created a lot of questions! What does it mean to kindle a fire? So just to give you an idea.

Here's an example of some Jewish writings because when you try to keep the "letter of the Law" a lot of problems and questions arise. One of the questions were, well, what is considered work? Is it work to bake, is it work to start a fire (how do we stay warm, how about working on clothing, how about playing games with kids, etc.)

So additional books were written.

Here's the definition of acts of work (or labor) as recorded in the Mishnah Shabbat 7:2:

The principal acts of labor (prohibited on the Sabbath) are forty less one—viz.: Sowing, ploughing, reaping, binding into sheaves, threshing, winnowing, fruit-cleaning, grinding, sifting, kneading, baking, wool-shearing, bleaching, combing, dyeing, spinning, warping, making two spindle-trees, weaving two threads, separating two threads (in the warp), tying a knot, untying a knot, sewing on with two stitches, tearing in order to sew together with two stitches, hunting deer, slaughtering the same, skinning them, salting them, preparing the hide, scraping the hair off, cutting it, writing two (single) letters (characters), erasing in order to write two letters, building, demolishing (in order to rebuild), kindling, extinguishing (fire), hammering, transferring from one place into another. These are the principal acts of labor—forty less one.

 

[Shamah]

Just so people have an idea of what keeping the Sabbath looks like and all the other laws.

Here's a not so commonly known Sabbath Scripture:
Ex. 35:2-3 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, ba sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

All of His laws have a purpose, and the intent of the Sabbath is to do righteousness:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."[/FONT]

This is of course created a lot of questions! What does it mean to kindle a fire? So just to give you an idea.

TO look to or even use the Talmud (written by the pharisees and their type) is complete error. For this that you aree quoting IS EXACTLY what Yahshua spoke against: it is the "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the tradition of the elders";

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

Here's an example of some Jewish writings because when you try to keep the "letter of the Law" a lot of problems and questions arise. One of the questions were, well, what is considered work? Is it work to bake, is it work to start a fire (how do we stay warm, how about working on clothing, how about playing games with kids, etc.)

So additional books were written.

Here's the definition of acts of work (or labor) as recorded in the Mishnah Shabbat 7:2:

The principal acts of labor (prohibited on the Sabbath) are forty less one—viz.: Sowing, ploughing, reaping, binding into sheaves, threshing, winnowing, fruit-cleaning, grinding, sifting, kneading, baking, wool-shearing, bleaching, combing, dyeing, spinning, warping, making two spindle-trees, weaving two threads, separating two threads (in the warp), tying a knot, untying a knot, sewing on with two stitches, tearing in order to sew together with two stitches, hunting deer, slaughtering the same, skinning them, salting them, preparing the hide, scraping the hair off, cutting it, writing two (single) letters (characters), erasing in order to write two letters, building, demolishing (in order to rebuild), kindling, extinguishing (fire), hammering, transferring from one place into another. These are the principal acts of labor—forty less one.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, “By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:4, “For they (the pharisees not YHWH) bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How do they “bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Dan_473]

Can you show me where it is against God's Law for Jesus to heal this man? Or against God's Law for a healed Cripple to carry his crutches or bed back to his home?

You are creating a Law where one does not exist, just like the Pharisees did.

it's a general rule

Exodus 20: 10. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates

of course, if Jesus tells you to do something, then it's lawful

that's true for all the commandments

 

[Shamah]

it's a general rule

Exodus 20: 10. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates

of course, if Jesus tells you to do something, then it's lawful

that's true for all the commandments

However to generalize "work" is not accurate, if we are truly looking to Him, we would do just that. What He did on the Sabbath was righteousness, the will of YHWH, not watch football or mow the lawn...

Isaiah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."


Mat 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

I want to say I am not perfect on the Sabbath but I do know it is for doing His will not ours.

Mark 3:4, “And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do right on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.”

 

[PS]

All of His laws have a purpose, and the intent of the Sabbath is to do righteousness:
[/FONT][/SIZE]
Isaiah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."

Just to say the high places were the hill tops where they erected pagan alters.

Solomon erected many such alters for his 400? pagan wives.

 

[Dan_473]

However to generalize "work" is not accurate, if we are truly looking to Him, we would do just that. What He did on the Sabbath was righteousness, the will of YHWH, not watch football or mow the lawn...

Isaiah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."


Mat 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

I want to say I am not perfect on the Sabbath but I do know it is for doing His will not ours.

Mark 3:4, “And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do right on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.”

"However to generalize "work" is not accurate, if we are truly looking to Him, we would do just that. What He did on the Sabbath was righteousness, the will of YHWH, not watch football or mow the lawn..."

Jesus told the man to carry his sleeping Matt on the Sabbath and to travel (to leave his place)

since Jesus told him to do it, it isn't his own work

it's Jesus's

what is Jesus telling you to do today?