Rapture= false teaching

Red33 · Jul 28, 2010

Why does this problem exist? Why is there such disagreement? There are three camps of thought on this subject and you can forget mid-trib. The third group, which is the most dangerous camp, are those that have become frustrated about this issue and have settled in their heart, through passivity, that it does not matter to them which way it goes. Is that the attitude of our heart concerning God's great salvation, or his great mercy and love and what he has provided through greater grace? Some have come to a place that they do not care about any doctrine because it has nothing to do with salvation, but they are so wrong and so blind because of darkness that grips their heart. When you have the light of God's word in your heart you do not have a problem in your understanding with these issues of truth, because they all come from the Son and the Spirit witnesses the truth of these words that come from the Son. You may not have all the light on it because you are growing in grace and knowledge of the Son, but you have the light and you should walk in that light that you have as children.

The raw facts are these. The post-trib believers claim that they have the truth and have a witness from the Spirit, the pre-trib believers make the same claim. One is walking in the light of truth through the Spirit and the other is walking in darkness without the truth and claims it is of the Spirit. This is not just a misunderstanding that could be corrected by shedding more light on the subject, it is error that goes against the truth because the heart has been deceived. What do you call it when someone concludes that a certain doctrine is of the devil, when in truth it came inspired of the Holy Spirit? If a person has concluded that what came from God was actually of the devil, what is the condition of that person's heart? Are they walking in the light or walking in darkness? If at one time they had the light and it turned into darkness, wouldn't that darkness be great? The post-trib believers are adamant and make a claim that those who are pre-trib are deceived by a lie from the devil and have gone so far to say that it is a doctrine of demons. This also applies to those who have ****ed the doctrine of eternal security (OSAS), which is to know that you have eternal life. If they (the post-trib believers) are in error, they have called what the Holy Spirit has inspired as 'a doctrine of demons' that has come from the father of all lies, the devil. Am I being too serious and forthright or is this what is happening. If you have the Holy Spirit, can't you discern the truth of what I am saying?

Why does this problem exist? Because the devil has put forth a strategy to keep believers in turmoil, to alienate them through insecurity and double-mindedness, to hinder their fellowship with the Son, to mock the love of God, to attribute the truth to the devil and to get believers to question the authority of God's word so that they will not be motivated to do the work of God. Any believer that walks in darkness has no fellowship in the light and has not been set free by grace and truth. The witness of truth comes to the believer's heart when they are walking by faith in the light of truth and love that they have received from the Holy Spirit.

1Jn 5:8-13 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water (not water baptism but God's word - Eph 5:26), and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

* BTW - There in nothing in this chapter that suggests, validates or confirms that water baptism has anything to do with eternal life that we have through believing upon the name of the Son of God. If you really have a heart that is after the truth, put that in your memory center and chew on it the next time you want to add a condition to salvation and eternal life that we have received from God through his Son.

VW · Jul 28, 2010

I am more inclined to believe the mid-trib than any other. Hey, I like to be forgotten.

As to the three witnesses, the Spirit is obvious, and the blood which He shed is also obvious, but the water is that which flowed from His side when He was pierced with the spear.

phil36 · Jul 28, 2010

Well I'm a pan - millenialist. It will all pan out in the end

forerunner · Jul 28, 2010

Red33 said:

The doctrine of a pretrib rapture IS a doctrine of demons as is OSAS. OSAS is not the assurance of Salvation. I have assurance of Salvation, but OSAS is not the subject of this thread. It would be nice to reconcile all believers and accept everyone's opinion, but the fact are satan has distorted some truths for his own purpose, and those that have understanding need to speak truth to those that have been deceived. Of course people who spent their whole live banking of a false teaching will not want to receive the truth. however they still need to be warned of it invalidity. It would be cruel not to tell them.

mpaper345 · Jul 28, 2010

The truth is that there is a resurrection of the saints for they get caught up in the air to be with Jesus forever.

The truth is that the resurrection will not happen until the antichrist claims to be God to the world and the world takes the mark and makes war against the saints.

The truth is that Jesus will come back to earth with His saints and fight the world at the battle of armageddon and set up His millennial reign.

This is biblical.I know some people do not know scriptures very well but some people know scriptures and ignore them in favor of their man made doctrine.

The Bible says let no man deceive you by any means for the saints will not be united with Christ until the antichrist claims to be God to the whole world.

The Bible says the saints will come back with Jesus when He fight at the battle of armageddon so they would of had to go to heaven first to come back with Jesus.

People who preach a pre-tribulation are going to overthrow the faith of some saints,for when it does not happen some will say I guess the Bible wasn't true.

Matt

lecoop · Jul 29, 2010

VW said:

The point is, THEY did not know it was a false peace. Neither did those living with Lot.
And neither are those living today. They have NO CLUE that the world is on the verge of destruction and judgment.

Coop

lecoop · Jul 29, 2010

mpaper345 said:

There is another very real possibility, which is the truth; you don't understand what Paul was saying here. Remember the THEME of this passage is the coming and gathering. In this passage Paul shows us clearly that he equates the restrainer with apostasia. In other words, whatever or whoever he means by restrainer, he means exactly the same thing by his word, apostasia.

And in this word, there are TWO possibilities:
1) a departure from the truth of the gospel, i.e. a falling away: although Paul does NOT tell us WHAT is being departed from.

2) A departure of the body of Christ. Since the THEME Of the passage is the gathering, it think this seems by far to be the intended meaning.

It may well be those preaching a POST trib rapture that will overthrow the faith of some. It is written that Jesus is coming for those LOOKING for His coming. Could it be that all those that believe strongly in a post trib rapture will be left behind?

Coop

lecoop · Jul 29, 2010

forerunner said:

Do you remember when Jesus was accused of performing miracles by the power of Satan? And do you remember what Jesus told them? It is a very dangerous thing to speak AGAINST the Holy Spirit. And if you are mistaken, and I believe you are - you are then accusing the Holy Spirit of being wrong.

Sorry, but both Paul and Revelation make it clear that Christ comes FIRST for the church.

Now, it seems you will disagree. Therefore I have a challenge for you. For one to KNOW pretrib from posttrib, does not not make sense that we KNOW where the "trib" begins and ends?

Therefore, please show us in Revelation where you believe the "trib" begins and ends.

THEN we can see if the rapture is before or after.

Coop

WomanLovesTX · Jul 29, 2010

Red33 said:

* Important note: It is important that we are buried and not cremated because of the resurrection. If you remember the story of the bones of Elisha that brought a dead man back to life in (2Kgs 13:20,21). The amazing thing was that Elisha died from a sickness (guess he had no healing in the atonement available to him like some believe they have today) yet his bones had life. Jesus Christ was buried in a tomb and was resurrected from the grave.
quote]

Grave vs Cremation - Does the Bible state clearly no cremation? I found one site that directly discusses this topic of cremation. The site is Christian Views on Cremation

[Christian Views on Cremation – Does the Bible offer instruction?
The Bible is clear concerning death and the mortality of the body. Genesis 3:19 says, “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Jesus further illustrated a perspective towards the disposal of the body when he spoke to one who would follow Him: Luke 9:59-60 says, “He said to another man, ‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.’” At first, this appears to be a harsh and unfeeling response, but Jesus was determined that those who followed Him would give Him their full attention; disposing of the body of the dead was obviously of very low priority. If the Bible renders a low priority to this issue then it would seem that the method of disposal may be left to individual taste and, perhaps, other societal and environmental dictates.

Cremation, while still a controversial practice is nonetheless widely performed throughout the world. For those who favor cremation, it offers the following benefits:

[*]The entire process of cremation, whether or not it includes a service or just the incineration of the corpse, is far cheaper than burial, even though a coffin or container is used.
[*]For those prone to ponder the lasting appearance, the process of cremation offers a quick, purifying process. This helps people to banish the thought of the body lying for decades in the ground while suffering slow decay.
[*]The cremains, as the ashes are termed, can be kept at home in a fashionable container or urn, thus offering the family the opportunity to remember the loved-one on a daily basis.

Individuals favoring burial emphasize:

[*]The sanctity of the human body and value the fact that burial keeps the body intact.
[*]Burial is less ‘final’ to its advocates and affords those left behind the chance to remember the person either at a grave site or vault.
[*]Funerals for those to be buried afford dignity and promoters for the burial process assert that the body belongs to God; let not man take it into his hands to destroy.

Christian Views on Cremation – How will the body be raised?
The believer’s hope, whether we will submit our remains to burial or cremation, is that the body that is buried or incinerated is not the body that will ultimately dwell with the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:35, 37, 42-44 reads: “But someone may ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?’ . . . When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else . . . So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

No one needs worry that the body will be destroyed and thus unable to participate in that “great catching away.” No. The body that is interred will either slowly decay or burn rapidly, but God will give all of His children a new body, glorious, and incorruptible to dwell with Him forever. Once and for all the negativity of death and separation from God will be nullified.

“The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26). ]

forerunner · Jul 29, 2010

lecoop said:

I do not have to be worried about being wrong because i am in agreement with scripture. Further the Pharisees knew Jesus was of God when they made that fallacious statement against him

You must be reading out of the ptpv (pretrib perverted version) because the true bible never makes any such claim

You challenge is baseless. Seeing how whether I know when the Trib starts via Revelation has nothing to do with the clear teaching of the post trib return of Christ.

lecoop · Jul 29, 2010

forerunner said:

hmmm. You don't KNOW where the "trib" is - yet you "know" the rapture must come first? How silly is that?
If you understood the chronology of Revelation, you would KNOW that the rapture happens before the 70th week. John lays it out very clearly. But since you don't even know where the "trib" is - you will stay in your mistaken belief. You still seem to believe that Jesus spoke of the rapture. Do you understand what a mystery is?

Of course, EVERY side of this argument says their one belief is the one that aligns with scripture. If you were willing to learn where these things are in Revelation, it is there for all to read.

Coop

mpaper345 · Jul 29, 2010

The Bible says when Christ comes to fight at the battle of armageddon prior to the millennial reign of Christ,the saints are with Him.That means that the saints will have to go to heaven first to come back,and the Bible says the saints will be caught up to be with the Lord.

The Bible says to die is to be present with the Lord.The saints will be caught up to heaven to have their works judged and receive their glorified body.

The saints will go to heaven and then come back with Jesus when He fight at the battle of armageddon.

The reason the resurrection will not happen until after the antichrist claims to be God and makes war against the saints is because God is not going to give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.

As long as the world can repent of their sins the resurrection will not happen.When the world takes the mark of the beast they cannot repent of their sins and God will take all those that are His home.

God's purpose is to allow all people who do not love Him to come together and rebel against so God can take all those who love Him home.

God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.

Matt

forerunner · Jul 30, 2010

lecoop said:

I didn't say I didn't know I said it was irrelevant to this conversation. you shouldn;t assume my friend.

forerunner · Jul 30, 2010

mpaper345 said:

Yes and no. The dead return from Heaven with Christ, the living meet him in the air as He is returning.

1st Thess 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

lecoop · Jul 31, 2010

forerunner said:

No assumptions on my part. I just think you are mistaken in thinking it is irrelevant.

Coop

journey41 · Jul 31, 2010

miktre said:

Yes thats correct brother. The so called "rapture" is going to decieve many Christians as it's pretty obvious from the scriptures that Christ comes at the 7th trump or vial as they both correspond. The "tribulation" is the wrath of the false prophet on all Chritians who refuse to worship him or recieve the mark. This is our biggest test. Are we prepared to refuse the mark of the beast and give up all our wordly things, even our life for Christ as he did for us? Even the prophets and appostles were killed for Christ name's sake. Yes some of us will be killed also, See Rev 20:4. Some of us will be in hiding, and some of us will be put in prison. Now the wrath of God comes AFTER THE TRIBULATION and is poured out on all those that recieved the mark of the beast. God is avenging our blood on them.Rev 6:11. see also Rev 16:2 who the first vial is poured out on.
Now regarding the False Prophet or Antichrist as you like to call him, (God refers to him as the False Prophet) as anyone who is against Christ is an anti-christ. Have a deeper search brother, he is not satan. He is a man Satan has chosen and given him all his powers to fulfill his will. He will be destroyed at Christs coming and thrown into the lake of fire whereas, Satan (the dragon) is cast into the bottomless pit and locked up for a thousand years. refer back to Rev 19:20 for false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and Rev 20:2-3 re Satan being locked up.

lecoop · Jul 31, 2010

journey41 said:

I think some are deceived right now, thinking that the pretrib rapture is not truth. It is in the bible.

And it is simply IMPOSSIBLE that the Beast of Rev. 13 and Satan the dragon are one and the same. They are cast into the lake at separate times.

Most Christians will never see the beast, for God has said we can escape all these things. Paul also tells us we have no appointment. You can "tribulate" of you choose, but I am going to escape. I am not showing up when I have no appointment.

for the readers, it is a MYTH that the wrath of God comes AFTER the "trib." The truth is, they happen at the same time, as shown by the vials being poured out on those with the mark. The "trib" or 70th week runs concurrent with the day of the Lord. Both begin at the 7th seal, and go through the trumpets and vials. But the "trib" or 70th week ends with the 7th vial, while the day of the Lord continues on.

Some try to find the "trib" hidden between the lines of the seals. it is only a MYTH. John does not even get to the midpoint of the week until chapter 11.

Coop

forerunner · Jul 31, 2010

lecoop said:

No it is not

lecoop · Aug 1, 2010

forerunner said:

2 Thes 2
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it[the day of the Lord] will not come unless the apostasy [the departure] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The apostasia comes FIRST, then the man of sin is revealed. (Verse 3)

Note that it is a done deal, past tense and completed, he is revealed. So whatever was restraining is GONE.

Now notice a parallel verse:

6And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time. (amplified)

The WHAT WITHHOLDETH [restrains] will be moved out of the way, and then he will be revealed in his time. This verse is a PARALLEL with verse 3.

Here is yet ANOTHER PARALLEL:

7For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [c]he who restrains is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed...(amplified)

The restrainer is blocking the revealing, but will be removed, "taken out of the way." THEN the antichrist will be revealed.

So in verse six the restrainer is restraining, and KEEPING BACK the revealing UNTIL it is the right time. In verse seven the antichrist is STILL being restrained - but ONLY UNTIL the restrainer is removed or taken out of the way, or gone out of the midst.

Now a question: CAN the Antichrist be revealed BEFORE the restrainer is removed? Certainly NOT.

Verse 3: "...and the man of sin is revealed..."

Here we read plainly that the man of sin IS revealed. It is done, completed.
Therefore we KNOW without reading the first half of the verse that it MUST REFER to the restrainer being removed. Plain and simple logic with the English language.

" Let noone decieve you by any means; for that day will not come unless the apostasia[restrainer removed - departed] comes first .............and the man of sin is revealed..

Therefore apostasia MUST refer to the restrainer being removed. If you are honest with this verse, you are now faced with two choices:

1) Either the specific departing [from the truth or from something else] has allowed the revealing

or

2) The specific departure of the church has allowed the revealing.

The Greek will allow for either one of these translations.

Which makes more sense? Which has Paul wrote of before, to the Thes. church? Remember the theme of this passage: the coming and the gathering. Therefore, the departure of the church makes FAR MORE Sense.

Coop

VW · Aug 1, 2010

Well that is certainly one way to see this passage. I personally don't subscribe to such reasonably deduced explanations for scripture, because they tend to preclude the revelation of the Spirit. Could not another possibility be that God's hand is what is withholding the son of perdition? If we look to the story of Job, we find that the devil himself was restrained by God, that Job had a hedge built all around him and his family, by God's favor. Truthfully, God's hand, His favor, has been restraining the devil for a very long time. If not for this favor, the devil would have already long before this destroyed all of us, and every part of creation possible.

Again, I am not subscribing to either position, pre or post. What I am doing is allowing the Spirit to teach me in this, and where He does not teach, I try not to make a judgment.

Rapture= false teaching

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