Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Because I know how much Jesus hates a liar, I do not knowingly lie.

If you are born from above, you aren't a liar. Do you understand that we are Spirit, soul, and are housed in a body?

Our new birth is spiritual, and done in our spirit. The zeal of the Lord then seems to come to all with the new birth, for we know we are changed. But, we don't know how or where this took place until we are taught scripture with a true understanding of grace. The grace of God.

Then comes the battle for we we still live in darkness, but we are the light shining here. And we learn warfare. And which part of us is in need of salvation. That's our soul. Our mind needs renewed to truth of Gods Word, and we wield the sword to cut down the lies of the enemy against ourselves and then in others.

So to make this short. Salvation is completed within our Spirit man. We are no longer a natural man. Or woman. But, our soul is in the process of being saved as we learn truth, faith grows.

We are now spiritual Sons of God. Yet in the beginning, we know not what we shall be, but when we see Him....we become like Him.

Much much much to see.

 

[stonesoffire]

Aw, McGee, you are so sweet. Thank you for both reps. The one before, was a bit down so I wasn't ignoring. I saw and was thankful.

 

[dcontroversal]

My so called 'counterfeit gospel' comes straight from the bible, just like yours. Are they both 'counterfeit'?

Not really....more like a skewed view of the bible!!

 

[dcontroversal]

My church affiliation is not important for you to understand my bilblical theology background. Everything I say is printed in the bible. If everything in the bible is true, then my theology is as righteous as your theology, since I suspect you only use the bible to explain your theology.

Wrong again.....perpetually!

 

[dcontroversal]

Not by works which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

The simplicity found in Christ...faith alone into the work of Christ = eternal salvation.....!

 

[mailmandan]

Not by works which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

The simplicity found in Christ...faith alone into the work of Christ = eternal salvation.....!

Amen! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). It's not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.

 

[Endoscopy]

What does it mean to "Believe" in someone? The demons believe. Those in Matt. 7 who Jesus didn't know believed.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Was it this same "Christ" that said:

Lev. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (The Word which became Flesh)


I asked a question awhile ago and you ignored it so i'll ask again.

Who is this "Jesus" we are to believe in. Is it the Word which became Flesh? The God who gave Abraham His Laws?

People believe in context of John 3:16. Here it is in 4 different translations. I find the AMPC version meaningful since it gives better meaning to the word translated believe.

John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:16 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 3 AMPC (Amplified Classic)
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His knee and) only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.in

 

[Endoscopy]

Not by works which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

The simplicity found in Christ...faith alone into the work of Christ = eternal salvation.....!

You always leave out how works is involved though. It doesn't save but works demonstrates true faith that saves. The Bible states faith without works is dead. This means works is evidence of faith. James says he will show his faith by his works. Works means faith and no works means no faith. Works is also how we are to understand who is wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Budman]

Works is also how we are to understand who is wolves in sheep's clothing.

Are Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses Christians?

Because they do good works dang near constantly.

 

[Endoscopy]

Are Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses Christians?

Because they do good works dang near constantly.

The Apostles Creed defines who is and isn't a Christian. Jehovah Witnesses web site says they do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore they are not Christians. Also Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. This is an upgrade of the Roman Creed created in the 200s. This Creed is dated to 312.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.


Probable wording of the Roman Creed.

Roman Creed

I believe in God the Father almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh.

 

[Endoscopy]

Stupid 5 minute rule. Not enough time.

Addendum
Mormons say Jesus was a man that ascended to being a god like all men should.
Not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses state the following:
However, we take Jesus at his word when he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God.
This ignores and contradicts the verse where Jesus states, "I and the Father are one."
Not Christian.

Catholics adhere to the Biblical view of Jesus to the extent of when taking Communion they believe the blessed elements become the body and blood of Christ. Thus take extreme care of the blessed elements.
Christian.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

The Apostles Creed defines who is and isn't a Christian.

No. God defines who is and isn't Christian...

 

[benhur]

well thats not true


you said being born of water = water baptism

this isnt written in scripture

it is our conclusions that can have error

not the bible

and your conclusions are the opposite of his

i believe truth talk talks truth


and i believe you push a false doctrine

(though not knowingly.... even though youve been warned
and shown the truth you reject it.... im praying God opens your eyes and i hold no ill will against you)







romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

For you to start by saying what I believe is not true, is making a large assumption that your interpretation of what
'born of water' means is true. There are many interpretations of what 'born of water' means, and mine is just 1 of them, and yours is just another one. So to say mine is untrue is fanciful on your part. You can say that I believe your interpretation is untrue, but you do not know what is true or not, since Jesus did not elaborate on what he meant by
'being born of the water'.

Baptism by water seems to fit the term 'born of water', or 'being born again', since a person goes down in the water and is completely immersed into a watery grave and is then lifted up out of the water and is metaphorically born again as a new person. That is my interpretation, and that may be different from yours. But you cannot prove with scripture that my interpretation is not true.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

For you to start by saying what I believe is not true, is making a large assumption that your interpretation of what
'born of water' means is true. There are many interpretations of what 'born of water' means, and mine is just 1 of them, and yours is just another one. So to say mine is untrue is fanciful on your part. You can say that I believe your interpretation is untrue, but you do not know what is true or not, since Jesus did not elaborate on what he meant by
'being born of the water'.

Baptism by water seems to fit the term 'born of water', or 'being born again', since a person goes down in the water and is completely immersed into a watery grave and is then lifted up out of the water and is metaphorically born again as a new person. That is my interpretation, and that may be different from yours. But you cannot prove with scripture that my interpretation is not true.

ya

actually

scripture in itself proves most of your views are false
(not trying to be mean here.... just being honest.... ive answered all of your questions with truth.... i really want you to see... but i cannot control if you believe it or not)

if someone ignores context

conflates verses


it will lead to a false understanding

im actually working

but heres something for you to ponder

Ephesians 4
4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



and here is a bump

not true


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(use birth as an earthly example to help the lost Nicodemus who believed in works and didnt understand spiritual things to explain something spiritual to him)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

(again Nicodemus is unable to understand this spiritual lesson even with an earthly example of birth so he uses his earthly reasoning to question Jesus)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

 

[benhur]

The Apostles Creed defines who is and isn't a Christian. Jehovah Witnesses web site says they do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore they are not Christians. Also Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. This is an upgrade of the Roman Creed created in the 200s. This Creed is dated to 312.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.


Probable wording of the Roman Creed.

Roman Creed

I believe in God the Father almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh.

The bible says that the disciples of Jesus were called Christians first at Antioch. This is the first and only requirement to be called a Christian, that you are a disciple of Christ.

A disciple is one who follows Jesus. To be a follower of Jesus it means that you do the things that Jesus taught you to do. To do the things you saw or read that Jesus did. That is the biblical qualification.

Today, you can't be a Christian if you do not believe 100% what some Christians believe about Christ. That was not the initial biblical requirement, it has been added since. Even on this forum some Christians are not considered Christian because they do not believe what other Christians on this forum believe. Not biblical.

 

[ljs]

The bible says that the disciples of Jesus were called Christians first at Antioch. This is the first and only requirement to be called a Christian, that you are a disciple of Christ.

A disciple is one who follows Jesus. To be a follower of Jesus it means that you do the things that Jesus taught you to do. To do the things you saw or read that Jesus did. That is the biblical qualification.

Today, you can't be a Christian if you do not believe 100% what some Christians believe about Christ. That was not the initial biblical requirement, it has been added since. Even on this forum some Christians are not considered Christian because they do not believe what other Christians on this forum believe. Not biblical.

No , being a disciple of Christ is not the requirement for being a Christian
Believing the Gospel , and trusting Christ alone for salvation , and receiving his righteousness ,makes you a Christian Believer

 

[NoNameMcgee]

No , being a disciple of Christ is not the requirement for being a Christian
Believing the Gospel , and trusting Christ alone for salvation , and receiving his righteousness ,makes you a Christian Believer

amen

romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith




and john 10 clearly explains He is the way

anyone trying to find another way in is like a theif and a robber

 

[benhur]

ya

actually

scripture in itself proves most of your views are false
(not trying to be mean here.... just being honest.... ive answered all of your questions with truth.... i really want you to see... but i cannot control if you believe it or not)

if someone ignores context

conflates verses


it will lead to a false understanding

im actually working

but heres something for you to ponder

Ephesians 4
4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



and here is a bump





romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

So cutting through your lengthy response you finally give me your interpretation of 'born of water'. Your interpretation is just one of several, which says that your initial birth was what Jesus meant by 'being born of water'.

My only response to this interpretation is that the anatomical fluid or amniotic fluid is not just water, in fact when a womans 'water' breaks at birth, the fluid is mostly made up of urine. That is why I have rejected this interpretation because you are not 'born of water' you are more correctly 'born of urine', which eliminates this interpretation.

Remember, we are all interpreting what Jesus said, because he did not elaborate about what he meant by 'born of water'. Again, there are several different schools of thought of exactly what that meant. I just happen to believe that the baptism by immersion interpretation fits better than original amniotic birth interpretation.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

So cutting through your lengthy response you finally give me your interpretation of 'born of water'. Your interpretation is just one of several, which says that your initial birth was what Jesus meant by 'being born of water'.

My only response to this interpretation is that the anatomical fluid or amniotic fluid is not just water, in fact when a womans 'water' breaks at birth, the fluid is mostly made up of urine. That is why I have rejected this interpretation because you are not 'born of water' you are more correctly 'born of urine', which eliminates this interpretation.

Remember, we are all interpreting what Jesus said, because he did not elaborate about what he meant by 'born of water'. Again, there are several different schools of thought of exactly what that meant. I just happen to believe that the baptism by immersion interpretation fits better than original amniotic birth interpretation.

what do you mean finally?

i have answered all of your questions... many of which multiple times

and i always do as quickly as im able.....


(another example of me answering not only this questions but all your others)

The scripture you refer to is:
John 3:3
3 [FONT=&quot]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[/FONT]You will notice that this scripture does not say "if you are born again you will be given eternal life automatically".

Jesus only says that if you are not born again you will not see the KOG. There is an obvious implication that if you are born again you will see the KOG. But now we have to argue with each other about:
1) what does it mean to be born again?
2) what is being born of the water?
3) what is being born of the spirit?
4) does it take someone with some authority to born you again?
5) is being born again the only requirement to be given eternal life? It is said that all you have to do is believe?

So do you see the dilemma with your simple statement of born again =eternal life?

1) born again means born of the spirit
2) born of water means born of the flesh
3) being made new.... God quickening your spirit (making it alive
4) it takes God
5) the requirement for being saved is Gods grace.... the rest is a product of (faith.... being born again... being kept by His power unto salvation)



bump for context of being born of flesh/water
spirit/Spirit

and Jesus does elaborate

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)

 

[benhur]

No , being a disciple of Christ is not the requirement for being a Christian
Believing the Gospel , and trusting Christ alone for salvation , and receiving his righteousness ,makes you a Christian Believer

You have now put your requirements on being a Christian. You are what I call a 'gracer', and that stringent view elliminates all people who follow Jesus that are not 'gracers'. The bible does not say, the disciples of Christ (who are gracers only) were first called Christians in Antioch. If it did, then I too would be a gracer only. But it doesn't, so your interpretation of the gospel and your trust in Christ alone for salvation and receiving his righteounsness are all good and I believe them, but they are just one of many, many interpretations of the Christian path.

I hope you enjoy your path, I enjoy mine.