Not By Works

[justsomeone123]

some people think that if you say you are a Christian it makes you a Christian......jesus(the word of god) says And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/act.11.26.KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/luk.14.33.KJV

 

[justsomeone123]

some people say you have to be a Christian in order to get to heaven....jesus (the word of God) says Matthew 25:32-46

 

[BillG]

Romans 4:5 Paul is telling us that it is not work of the law which justifies a man before God. I believe that saying of Paul.

I also believe that when Paul refers to works, he is referring to the works of the law, which cannot save. He was a Pharasidic Jew and they believed that if you just kept the law you would be saved. By the time of Christ they had eliminated Christ from the equation and just believed that the law was their Savior.

Paul is introducing the role of Jesus to them. He that worketh not the works of the law, but believeth on Jesus, who justifies the ungodly (and we are all ungodly), his faith is counted as righteousness. It is a true statement.

Paul also says in 2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This tells me that my belief in Christ, must be accompanied with a good works component in order for me to be a perfect man before God.

So I believe that I am not just a hearer of the word of Jesus, but also a doer of the words of Jesus and the combination of my good works, wrought for the glory of God and in the love of Jesus Christ (and not for my own salvation and self righteousness, since we know that can not save me) and the justification that Jesus offers me as an ungodly person, through my belief in him, and along with his grace, prove to be a pure path to eternal life.

The same answer applies to all the scriptures you gave me.

I would say with regards to your second paragraph that Jesus was never part of the equation to start with, regards to law.
Yes in the OT there were people who foresaw Jesus.
Abraham saw it, yet he was not under the law. But how was he saved?
David saw it yet he was under the law. In fact he should have been stoned but was not. Why not?

The truth is that the law was not their saviour, but I prefer to say that the sacrificial system is what covered their sins.

Can I ask you concerning being perfect.
You quote Timothy.
Do you believe you will become perfect?

If I am reading you correctly I think you are saying that works do not save?
Am I reading that correctly?

I also read that you are saying that works will accompany salvation.
Am I reading correctly?

I think the purpose of this thread is to point out that it is faith that saves and not works.

I can't recall anyone saying that works will not follow saving faith.
Yes works will follow and fruit will become evident. Some bear fruit quicker than others.
Some lead a lot more cultivation than others.

But I would ask what have we to prove to God?

 

[benhur]

hmmmm

lets say there are two men

1- has a genuine faith in Christ.... has been born agin
made new

but has not yet had 1 good work from the perspective of man... from the time he was born until the time he heard Gods call (as a grown man) he was a wicked sinner only looking to pleasure himself

and 15 hours after he believes on Jesus Christ .... truely....

seeking Him through prayer and His inspired written word

he passes away in the same bed where He heard His call


2- there is a man who says he believes in Jesus Christ as his lord and savior... this man learned of God at a young age and was instructed in His ways.... through a life of study and worship

he has many good works to back up his claim of faith

and he dies sharing the true message of the gospel (how we are saved by grace through faith lol)


would you think based on scripture both of these men are saved?



and do you think God cannot tell a genuine faith
from a flimsy faith that can be walked away from apart from the start?

do you think works are needed in order to show God who has and who doesnt have a genuine faith?


do you think these works play any part in justifying/glorifying a man BEFORE GOD (not man)

Man #1 - only God can judge this man
Man #2 - seems to fit my definition of one to be saved, but again, God can only judge this man too.

To answer your other questions: All that declare their faith in Christ, their lives will be accompanied by many good works, out of their love for Jesus and their faith in Jesus. Again, not for self righteousness or earning their way to eternal life, but purely out of love for Jesus and what he has told us to do and to be more like him.

 

[benhur]

some people say you have to be a Christian in order to get to heaven....jesus (the word of God) says Matthew 25:32-46

This is the good works component that I have been talking about. Belief, faith, trust, grace accompanied by good works = eternal life.

 

[Endoscopy]

some people think that if you say you are a Christian it makes you a Christian......jesus(the word of god) says And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/act.11.26.KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/luk.14.33.KJV

That is why the early elders created the Apostles Creed. It defines the doctrine of who is and isn't a Christian.

 

[VCO]

My church affiliation is not important for you to understand my bilblical theology background. Everything I say is printed in the bible. If everything in the bible is true, then my theology is as righteous as your theology, since I suspect you only use the bible to explain your theology.

Now we know you must be involved with one of the Pseudo Christian Cults.

Next thing you will be telling us that "It don't matter that your theology Contradicts what Jesus said, because the Bible is full of contradictions."

Now where have I heard that before . . . . . . . . hmmmm. OH YES, I heard that from one of the Mormon Missionaries that I confronted.

 

[BillG]

Matthew 25:31-32
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

25:32 Nations here means Gentiles. Sheep and goats were both clean animals according to the Levitical law; however, their natures are very different. Shepherds regularly herded their sheep and goats together, but there came a point when the two had to be separated. (NKJV study notes)

What's people's thoughts on this?

I just want to clarify that I do not think that this negates my responsibilities with the rest of verses from 32-46

 

[dcontroversal]

You always leave out how works is involved though. It doesn't save but works demonstrates true faith that saves. The Bible states faith without works is dead. This means works is evidence of faith. James says he will show his faith by his works. Works means faith and no works means no faith. Works is also how we are to understand who is wolves in sheep's clothing.

And you leave out that a true believer by faith already has done the work of the Heavenly Father and then flat deny the testimony of James and what he is actually saying.....also the fact that any work or fruit is a by product of growth and maturity and is affected by such....sorry....works prove nothing to God.....the Just shall live by FAITH!

SO....believer "a" has genuine saving faith and gets killed in an accident before 1 work is "done"

believer "b" has genuine saving faith and gets killed 10 years after 1 work

believer "c" has genuine saving faith and is never taught, never matures, has no major scriptural growth and dies with a tree of stunted half mature fruit

THEY ALL are saved because it is FAITH THAT SAVES not WORKS!

 

[ljs]

This is the good works component that I have been talking about. Belief, faith, trust, grace accompanied by good works = eternal life.

ben , you have been shown over & over again that good works have nothing to do with salvation , We are in the Age of Grace , its all God's Grace now until the tribulation time, yet you refuse to see it , Im gonna pray for you , I really feel heartbroken that you think your good works add to Jesus's finished work !!

 

[dcontroversal]

The Apostles Creed defines who is and isn't a Christian. Jehovah Witnesses web site says they do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore they are not Christians. Also Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. This is an upgrade of the Roman Creed created in the 200s. This Creed is dated to 312.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.


Probable wording of the Roman Creed.

Roman Creed

I believe in God the Father almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh.

The Apostle's CREED proves nothing....zero, nadda, zilch, zip......now the word of God on the other hand......oh wait...in your case the bible is not enough!

 

[dcontroversal]

That is why the early elders created the Apostles Creed. It defines the doctrine of who is and isn't a Christian.

Wrong yet again.....nope....sorry folks this is false....the bible ALONE determines man's standing before God......do not buy this hogwash!

 

[BillG]

Evening benhur.

Can I ask you whether you believe that God knows whether you will endure to the end or not?
Whether he knows that anyone who places genuine saving faith in him will endure to the end?[/QUOTE

Would you mind answering the above for me please

 

[BillG]

That is why the early elders created the Apostles Creed. It defines the doctrine of who is and isn't a Christian.

Where in the creed does it say that works save?

 

[VCO]

some people think that if you say you are a Christian it makes you a Christian......jesus(the word of god) says And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/act.11.26.KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/luk.14.33.KJV

Yes I agree. We should ask them, if your mind is full of car facts, and you sit in a Garage; DOES THAT MAKE YOU A CAR?

Sitting on a Pew, and acknowledging that the facts about the LIFE OF JESUS are true, in the same manor, that does not make you a Christian.

 

[VCO]

That is why the early elders created the Apostles Creed. It defines the doctrine of who is and isn't a Christian.

So that you do not have to study the WORD ? ? ?

 

[benhur]

Now we know you must be involved with one of the Pseudo Christian Cults.

Next thing you will be telling us that "It don't matter that your theology Contradicts what Jesus said, because the Bible is full of contradictions."

Now where have I heard that before . . . . . . . . hmmmm. OH YES, I heard that from one of the Mormon Missionaries that I confronted.

What I will tell you is that your theology contradicts what Jesus said. Does that not bother you?

 

[benhur]

Where in the creed does it say that works save?

Good works do not save, standing alone.

 

[TruthTalk]

Now we know you must be involved with one of the Pseudo Christian Cults.

Next thing you will be telling us that "It don't matter that your theology Contradicts what Jesus said, because the Bible is full of contradictions."

Now where have I heard that before . . . . . . . . hmmmm. OH YES, I heard that from one of the Mormon Missionaries that I confronted.

Hi VCO, behur would not tell me what Church he was associated with; my first thought was okay, the Mormon Church.

My church affiliation is not important for you to understand my bilblical theology background. Everything I say is printed in the bible. If everything in the bible is true, then my theology is as righteous as your theology, since I suspect you only use the bible to explain your theology.

 

[benhur]

ben , you have been shown over & over again that good works have nothing to do with salvation , We are in the Age of Grace , its all God's Grace now until the tribulation time, yet you refuse to see it , Im gonna pray for you , I really feel heartbroken that you think your good works add to Jesus's finished work !!

Don't be heartbroken, for according to your theology, I am saved right now and for eternity and have eternal life.

According to my theology, I must believe, have trust, receive the grace of Jesus and that is accompanied by good works, which Jesus taught us to do, and I must endure to the end. My theology is much more difficult than yours, so if I have erred, it is that I erred too much, not too little. So if you are right, I will be there with you in heaven.

If I am right, you might have a problem, so study up and make sure of your theology.