Not By Works

graceNpeace · Apr 28, 2018

Actually this is the nub of YOUR problem - because what Paul writes stands in opposition to YOUR INTERPRETATION of certain texts...
However what Paul writes is in complete accord with what Jesus says.
The only way open to you to rationalise your view on Scripture is to largely ignore the plain meaning of Paul's writings.

Paul knows that what Jesus was saying in Matt 5:18 has in fact been fulfilled!
However, you are stuck in this theological time warp where you believe, somehow, despite clear direction to the contrary, that the Sinaitic covenant and the Torah which is its outworking, is still binding....
One problem should immediately raise itself up here:
Who were the parties to this covenant?
It wasn't me, and I am pretty sure it wasn't you - unless you were born a Jew...
The parties to this covenant were God and a group of people called ISRAELITES.
This covenant was to a establish a governing theocracy through which those Israelites could establish themselves as a political, economic, and military nation.

Nobody who was not an Israelite was party to this covenant.
I was never a party to this covenant and I doubt you were either.

The New covenant is just that - NEW!
It is NOT a retread of the Sinaitic covenant....
Furthermore, the parties to this covenant are VERY different - unlike the Sinaitic covenant which was between God and a very specific ethnolinguistic people group with political aspirations, the New covenant is between God and individuals from any and every people group on earth.
The terms of the covenant are NOT obedience to the Torah, but accepting the sin sacrifice of Jesus Christ made on our behalf, offered by grace and accepted by faith...

It is only in your theological world that Paul and Jesus are in opposition - and your position that apparently what Jesus says trumps what Paul says just highlights the weakness of that position!
A "red letter theology" is no theology at all...

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

I will reply to the rest after this.

1. Paul is the only person that is said to be "hard to understand..and peopel twist his writings into Lawlessness"
With that said I have read every one of his letters more than 30 times, some more than 100, I also look into the greek, yet I am always learning. I think I have at minimum a basic understanding of his writings.

As far as Mat 5:18 being fulfilled:

heaven and earth has not yet passed:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

we can actually look to the word and see exactly when this will happen, it has not yet happened.

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

I will get back to Mat 5:18 but want to say i am a student of the entire word and know many other passages that show this same even, here are a few

Zephaniah 1:14-18, “Near is the great day of יהוה, near and hurrying greatly, the noise of the day of יהוה. Let the mighty man then bitterly cry out! That day is a day of wrath, a day of distress and trouble, a day of waste and ruin, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of a shophar and sounding – against the walled cities and against the corner towers. And I shall bring distress on men, and they shall walk like blind men – because they have sinned against יהוה, and their blood shall be poured out like dust and their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of יהוה. And by the fire of His jealousy all the earth shall be consumed, for He makes a sudden end of all those who dwell in the earth.”

Malachi/Malakyah 4:1-4, “For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. 2 “But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. 3 “And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. 4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings."

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.”
Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Isayah 51:6, “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth wear out like a garment, and those who dwell in it die as gnats. But My deliverance is forever, and My righteousness is not broken."

Again this has not yet happened, thus to do away with the Law is to disagree with the Messiah.

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done/perfected. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

are ALL the prophets fulfilled?

Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”

Luke 4:17-21, “And the scroll of the prophet Yeshayahu was handed to Him. And having unrolled the scroll, He found the place where it was written: “The Spirit of יהוה is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to bring the Good News to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to send away crushed ones with a release, to proclaim the acceptable year of יהוה.” (Isa 61:1-3) And having rolled up the scroll, He gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the congregation were fixed upon Him. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been filled in your hearing.”

Fulfilled already- To be fulfilled in the future

Isaiah 61:1-11, "61:1, “The Spirit of the Master יהוה [FONT=Times\ New\ Roman]is upon Me, because [FONT=Times\ New\ Roman]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times\ New\ Roman]has anointed Me to bring good news to the meek. He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound,"61:2, "to proclaim the acceptable year of [/FONT][FONT=Times\ New\ Roman]יהוה[/FONT][/FONT], and the day of vengeance of our Mighty One, to comfort all who mourn,"61:3, "to appoint unto those who mourn in Tsiyon: to give them embellishment for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness. And they shall be called trees of righteousness, a planting of יהוה, to be adorned."61:4, "And they shall rebuild the old ruins, raise up the former wastes. And they shall restore the ruined cities, the wastes of many generations."61:5, "And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner be your plowmen and your vine dressers."61:6, "But you shall be called, ‘Priests of יהוה,’ ‘Servants of our Mighty One’ shall be said of you. You shall consume the strength of the nations, and boast in their esteem."61:7, "Instead of your shame and reproach, they rejoice a second time in their portion. Therefore they take possession a second time in their land, everlasting joy is theirs."61:8, "“For I, יהוה, love right-ruling; I hate robbery for ascending offering. And I shall give their reward in truth, and make an everlasting covenant with them."61:9, "“And their seed shall be known among the nations, and their offspring in the midst of the peoples. All who see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed יהוה has blessed.”"61:10, "I greatly rejoice in יהוה, my being exults in my Mighty One. For He has put garments of deliverance on me, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."61:11, "For as the earth brings forth its bud, as the garden causes the seed to shoot up, so the Master יהוה causes righteousness and praise to shoot up before all the nations!”

Isaiah 45:21-22, “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Power and Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Strength, and there is none else.”

Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”

There are 2 "it is done" statements...

Fulfilled already
John 19:30, “So when יהושע took the sour wine He said, “It is done!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Fulfilled already- To be fulfilled in the future

1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits – presenting Himself to YHWH)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever
4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever

[FONT=Times\ New\ Roman]has all been perfected?

To be fulfilled in the future
Revelation 21:4-8, “And Yah shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away. And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy. And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Strength and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”[/FONT]

if not how is Mat 5:18 done?

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

yet Paul continuse to keep the Law and Sabbath and Feasts:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 18:21, "But bade them farewell, saying; I must by all means keep this Feast (word #G1859) that comes in Yerusalem; but I will return again to you, if YHWH wills. And he sailed from Ephesus."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 20:16, "For Shaul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he hurried, so it would be possible for him to celebrate the Day of Pentecost (word#H4005) at Yerusalem."

and there is no Jew and gentile in MEssiah, and in Exodus the Sabbath and Law was for gentiles who worshipped YHWH Ex 12:48-49 and Isa 56:1-6
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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gb9 · Apr 28, 2018

Shamah said:

This is true, and it's funny because where I post a lot Im told to shorten it, when I post a little it's isolating.

IMO posting a single Scripture itself is not isolation, posting a single or very few and using it build a doctrine that conflicts with the rest of Scripture is isolation IMO..

This verse:

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

I believe is safe that it is true, however I will support it with the OT and the NT:

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mat 28:19-20, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

“nations” is word #G1484 - ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.), Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: ethnos, Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos), Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles, Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

that should be sufficent to prove that Yahshua/Jesus is the One we Must hear and obey

yes, on the mount of transfiguration , God the Father said, in the presence of Moses ( the Law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) " this is My beloved Son, hear Him", thus elevating the words of the Son above those.

oneness is not Biblical. Trinity is. this is , to me , is the snare. God said " eye for eye, tooth for tooth, your eye shall not pity them. in later revelation , Christ said " love your enemies, bless those who cure you, pray for those who spitefully use you.

anyone who cannot see the difference in these words is not just blind, they are willfully blind.

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what YHWH says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying; YHWH has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what YHWH says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YHWH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the Name of YHWH, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 2:23-25, “And it came to be after these many days that the sovereign of Mitsrayim died. And the children of Yisra’yl groaned because of the slavery, and they cried out. And their cry came up to the Mighty One because of the slavery. And the Mighty One heard their groaning, and the Mighty One remembered His covenant with Aḇraham, with Yitsḥaq, and with Ya‛aqoḇ. And the Mighty One looked on the children of Yisra’yl, and the Mighty One knew!”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and His throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]O seed of Aḇraham[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He has remembered His covenant foreve[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]r, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] – an [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]everlasting covenant.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”

This covenant spoke of above[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10,

“[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He has remembered His covenant foreve[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]r,

(how long? forever. can man break it? Yes. Can YHWH break it? No and we will prove this later)

The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

The covenant He made with Aḇraham,

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](OK so we see it is this is the covenant made with Abraham)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And His oath to Yitsḥaq,

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](swore it to Issac)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law,
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
(made it a Law for Jacob)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

To Yisra’yl[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] – an [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]everlasting covenant.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

chadash, neos, kainos... but we will keep it simple:

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast withHim. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and His throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

graceNpeace · Apr 28, 2018

Shamah said:

Hardly any excuse is it....

As for Matt 5:18,
Paul clearly and unambiguously teaches that the Law is NOT binding on New covenant believers, and Luke also in his narrative of the Acts of the Apostles details the Jerusalem council where the explicit conclusion of that council is that the Law is NOT binding on New covenant believers...

These texts are understandable to a ten year old, both what Paul wrote and what Luke wrote...

So, no, the problem is not that this stuff is difficult to comprehend, it may just be difficult to accept...
Chalk and cheese!

You have set Paul (and Luke?) and Jesus up in opposition to each other!
That is your problem, and error, not mine...

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

Nobody is in oppisition with the Messiah, peoples understandings are.

and the red letter theology is Scriptual, wile there is valus in all Scripture and all Scripture is inspired, the Father Hiself says the Messiah's words are above all others:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

[/FONT][/FONT]

who is this Sent One spoken of in these passages and are we told we "must hear and obey Him?

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

gb9 said:

SO by me saying over and over Yahshua/Jesus is the One we must hear and obey I am saying listen to Moses and Elijah?

ODD. Seems to me im saying the Messiah is the one we must hear, funny because you say once I listen to Moses and Elijah and then that "red eltter theology" is wrong. So which is it? DO I preach "red eltter theology" or do I reject the Messiah for Moses and Elijah? You seem confiused?

As I said before, Yahshua is High Priest and the Law is mediated through Him.

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

graceNpeace said:

its written on the heart but not binding?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

im done here.
[/FONT]

gb9 · Apr 28, 2018

Shamah said:

I did not say the say the red letter thing. and, this is a dodge of the mount of transfiguration experience.

Shamah · Apr 28, 2018

gb9 said:

Ohh that is an honest mistake thing, I thought it was the other fuy I missed that it was you. My apologies.

Ok so one I constantly say we are to obey the Messiah, He says the Law is not done away, He is the High Priest the Law is indeed mediated through Him. As for the transfiguration, Peter said "let us build a sukkah (tent) for you three" but Yahshua had other plans, the Fahter said obey Him. This is in line with everything I have always said. Messiah said until heaven and earth pass nothing will pass from the Law, and He also said all judgment is givien into His hands...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:25-30, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of YHWH. And those having heard shall live. For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself, and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done right, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."

it is not my job to carry out the rold of the High Priest not is it my current job to judge.

The Law is mediated through Yahshua:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 2:5, "For One is YHWH; and One Mediator between YHWH and men: the Man, Yahshua Messiah."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus."

Heb 7
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to Yah through Him, ever living to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a High Priest [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

graceNpeace · Apr 29, 2018

Shamah said:

Either the Bible - all of it - is the inspired Word of God, or it isn't!

If it isn't then all of us are just wasting our time because then whole kit and kaboodle is is just so many fairy tales...
If however, the Bible is the inspired Word of God then all the writers are writing representing God - and that includes text that does not include the words of Jesus!

Your "red letter theology" is not valid because an author such as Luke who records the words of Jesus that one reads in his Gospel is the same author who penned the account of the Jerusalem council found in Acts chapter 15.
You put yourself in an impossible position:
All of Scripture was penned by human hands, yes by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but nevertheless by human hands.
You are asserting that the author of the Gospel of Matthew - because his Gospel contains words attributed to Jesus has more authority than Paul's epistle to the Romans which contains no direct quote from Jesus Christ.
And Luke who wrote both his Gospel and the account of the Acts of the Apostles - yes, the Gospel is good because it has apparent quotes from Jesus, but, oh no, Acts because it contains the Jerusalem council decision that the Law is no longer binding on New covenant believers can somehow be deprecated....

Hopefully you can see how nonsensical this is...

Shamah · Apr 29, 2018

graceNpeace said:

SO why did the Father say "the One we must hear and obey?"

Why did Yahshua say His words?

Why did those in Acts quote it from Duet 18?

Shamah said:

all Scripture is inspired and valuable, the words of the Messiah are above all but His own words and by the Fathers...

graceNpeace · Apr 29, 2018

Shamah said:

What you are referring to is a Messianic prophecy - and it has already been fulfilled.
It has no bearing on whether the Torah is binding on New covenant believers....

Seohce · Apr 29, 2018

dcontroversal said:

CAN YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES THAT SAYS JESUS WAS “CURSED" ASIDE FROM PAUL’S? I DON’T MEAN THAT HE HIMSELF CALLED JESUS “CURSED" BUT ONLY THOSE WHO TEACH A GOSPEL OF ANOTHER KIND WHICH IS NO GOSPEL AT ALL.

Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

WHATEVER THE LAW SAYS IT SAYS TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW.(rom 3:19). IT WAS CREATED BY GOD FOR MAN AND NOT FOR HIMSELF.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that LAW IS MADE NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and LIARS and perjurers—and for whatever else is CONTRARY TO THE SOUND DOCTRINE that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

OUR LORD DID NOT CONSIDER HIMSELF UNDER THE LAW WHEN HE SAID;

John 15:25 But this is to fulfill what is written in THEIR Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’

THE CURSE OF THE LAW IS “DEATH".

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

“BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US" MEANS “ BY DYING FOR US" SINCE THE CURSE OF THE LAW IS “DEATH”, AND THE GOSPEL CLEARLY SAYS THAT CHRIST DIED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS(JUSTIFICATION).

NOWHERE IN THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST TELLS US THAT “HE WAS CURSED” FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

JESUS IS THE “WORD THAT BECAME FLESH" AND THAT WORD IS GOD.(john 1:1-3 & 14) GOD IS THE SUPREME BEING AND AUTHORITY, THE ALMIGHTY LIVING GOD, THE CREATOR, LAW GIVER AND THE JUDGE(james 4:12) AND NO ONE CAN JUDGE OR CURSE HIM OR CALL HIM “CURSED".

Galatians 3:10,13 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who DOES NOT CONTINUE TO DO everything written in the Book of the Law.”

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law BY BECOMING A CURSE FOR US, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

PAUL CLEARLY DESCRIBED WHO ARE THOSE HE CONSIDERED “CURSED”;

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

UNDERSTANDING THE ABOVE VERSE WILL BRING US TO THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE FF: VERSE;

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

WE SHOULD ALL KNOW THAT THE LORD JESUS IS THE “WORD THAT BECAME FLESH" AND ACCORDING TO JOHN “THE WORD IS GOD". (john 1:1-3 & 14)

GOD IS THE SUPREME BEING AND AUTHORITY WHO CREATED THE LAW FOR MAN AND NOT FOR HIMSELF SO WHAT IS MAN TO CALL HIM “CURSED"?

WHO AMONG BELIEVERS WOULD QUESTION GOD’S VULNERABILITY TO CURSES OR WHATEVER EVIL ACTS AGAINST HIM? ...PETER EXPLAINS IT BETTER;

2 Peter 3:14-18 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the ERROR of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

Hebrews 10:26-29 If we DELIBERATELY keep on sinning after we have received the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has TRAMPLED THE SON OF GOD under foot, who has TREATED AS AN UNHOLY THING the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

.. GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED…

...LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR…

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and THE TRUTH and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

dcontroversal · Apr 29, 2018

Shamah said:

how does that vile accusation filled comment even touch on anything I said

you ignore what I said and continue to accuse

do you call names and constantly accuse people?

No I am not perfect that does not change His standard or do away with the Law

You seek to accuse me to justify your Lawless doctrine

your isolation of Scripture shows you are either dishonest or unlearned in the word

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, “My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, יהושע Messiah, a righteous One. And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.”

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

You sure are easily offended......here I will post again and get the log out of your eye lawyer..5 accusations is 6 statements when all I did was ask a couple of questions...just like your daddy Pharisee.....don't answer, misdirect and accuse hey lawyer.....and your last statement is not only wrong but ignorant as well.....surely the sell nappies where you live!!

Shamah · Apr 29, 2018

dcontroversal said:

you sure are a pillar of truth and respect are you not...

So quote a single post of mine and show me my error, surely if I am worthy of such words you can illustrate my error?

graceNpeace · Apr 29, 2018

dcontroversal said:

He has had a tough day - I have pinned him down over and over and over today pointing out the errors and deficiencies in his theology.
His repertoire is rather limited and he gets a bit defensive when the holes are exposed...

dcontroversal · Apr 29, 2018

For the lawyer who accused me 5 times in 6 statements

Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
Do you keep the very law you peddle......nope, so what value does your law blend false gospel accomplish? Nothing but condemnation

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