Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)

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Was the heart designed to be vulnerable?
Were Adam and Eve created with vulnerable hearts and negative feelings?

When was the first time they were afraid and hid from God?

Yes it was

yes they were and yes satan was the tempter of it, not sure if the bible mentions they had negative feelings though if speaking about the negative of wanting to hide from God. Me thinks satan had something to do with that as well since Eve open the knowledge door so to speak satan was able to follow them around. thus another reason the ousting out of the garden.

you see when satan finds the things your vulnerabe about, he will use them and get you coming and going, he will boost you up to drag you down quite the twister indeed
 
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Yes it was

yes they were and yes satan was the tempter of it, not sure if the bible mentions they had negative feelings though if speaking about the negative of wanting to hide from God. Me thinks satan had something to do with that as well since Eve open the knowledge door so to speak satan was able to follow them around. thus another reason the ousting out of the garden.

you see when satan finds the things your vulnerability about, he will use them and get you coming and going, he will boost you up to drag you down quite the twister indeed

Not sure I agree with the heart being created as vulnerable.
I would say God knew it would become that and set a plan it place to make is less so.

Yes satan he will.

And that is the point I'm trying to convey.
He comes to seek and destroy. He mess with our mind.
As a result our feelings can take over and affect our walk with God.

I personally do not believe Adam & Eve would have experienced this before the fall.

Maybe I have misunderstood the original post of yours that I responded to.
If so please accept my apologies.

Your brother

Bill
 
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Not sure I agree with the heart being created as vulnerable.
I would say God knew it would become that and set a plan it place to make is less so.

Yes satan he will.

And that is the point I'm trying to convey.
He comes to seek and destroy. He mess with our mind.
As a result our feelings can take over and affect our walk with God.

I personally do not believe Adam & Eve would have experienced this before the fall.

Maybe I have misunderstood the original post of yours that I responded to.
If so please accept my apologies.

Your brother

Bill

Its quite ok brother it is all cool to me :)

hey look at Nathanal all he needed to believe was Jesus saying He saw him under the fig tree before He even seen him, now look at Peter and others took a long time to believe yet Jesus is very patient look at what Peter ended up doing even his shadow could heal that's powerful belief in my book.

God created us vulnerable and weak satan wasn't about to honor and praise us humans because of that.

i ask this question is loving others being vulnerable a wiliness to be hurt. Hearts should be like glass in my opinion no light can shine through a covered hardened heart, things will just bounce right off a hardened heart but a glass takes breaks cracks dont use dock tape to patch it but by use clear superglue so the light can shine through.

side note satan is very sneaky at the beginning stages of messing with people it can come out of no where and catch people off guard for sure
 
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Well, this has gotten quite a few responses. Thanks to everyone who contributed the discussion.

To the group of people still doubting my genuine faith. I don't know what more to say. I believed I was a born again Christian from age 10 to about age 23. Inbetween that time, my faith in Christ was real and living. I prayed nightly. I loved worshiping God through song. My identity in Christ was the driving force in my life that affected all other things I did. I went to a Christian middle school and high school and for a time considered going into the ministry. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 13. It took me a year to do it, but oh how I grew in the faith that one year. I loved God, truly. I believed the Holy Spirit dwelt within me, as promised in Scripture. I believed my salvation was not my own doing; God was given the glory for that.....I just don't know what more to say. I understand that for many of you, someone like me simply can't exist, as it doesn't coincide with your particular worldview. So you make up some excuse as to why I was never really a true Christian, and go back to pretending we don't exist. And for those who fall in that group, I'm not sure what more I can say.

A few other observations. Ralph, I appreciate your perspective. You have left several insightful comments, and even correctly deduced my reason for making this topic. You want to know the ironic thing? Back when I was a believer, I sided with the OSAS people. I believed that there was no such thing as genuine ex-Christians, and just assumed all people claiming to be so were just ex-catholics who only went to church twice a year or something like that. I believed in eternal security, because I feel that that viewpoint was better backed in Scripture than the alternate. So oddly enough, while I never was amongst your point of view as a believer, I am thankful for your responses and your insight.

For those who said that I had a weak faith and fell away because of that. Well, I'd have to disagree, but ultimately agree I guess. Back when I was a believer, I felt my faith was very strong, and I fed the fires of my faith in many ways to keep it strong. Anyone remember the song "shout to the lord"? It was one of my favorites as a young person. My favorite line in the song was "forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" and I believed it wholeheartedly when I sang it. I thought that I could lose everything else in this world, but I'd always have Christ and my faith in Him. I think that's why my crisis of faith blindsided me so much. Various things started chipping away. It was not just one thing and it did not take just one day. And I did not go down quietly. I struggled to keep my faith for two years before finally acknowledging that I no longer believe. When I made that acknowledgement, it felt like I lost my best friend. Like a part of me was missing. So was my faith weak? Maybe so...after all I did fall away. But when I was in the faith, it sure seemed extremely strong.

AuntieAnnie, and others like you, thank you for your responses. I am not going to pretend to know what the future has in store for me. My worldview has shifted wildly once, maybe it could again. But right now, I'm in a state of mind where I couldn't believe even if I wanted to. As I referenced above, I didn't actually want to lose my faith. And you might say, "if you want to believe again, then just do it, call out to God and ask for forgiveness." The problem is, we actually can't just believe in anything we want to believe in. For example, I can't make myself believe in Santa Claus anymore. No matter how hard I try or want to believe it, there are intellectual barriers that are preventing that from happening. Now I am not equating God with Santa Claus, those are two completely different things, and it would be insulting to Christianity to equate the two. What I was simply doing was showing an example of how we don't have full control over what we can believe in.

JesusLives, I thank you for your encouraging post. Not many responses to me were what I'd consider friendly, but I could really see love coming from that post you made and it was nice to see that.

Posthuman, you gave an interesting philosophical argument there. What you're saying is that since I no longer believe now, then I must currently believe that I never had a relationship with Christ since I currently don't believe he ever existed. I'll admit, this is true. BUT that doesn't change what I did believe at the time I was a Christian. When I was a Christian, I did full-heartedly believe in my relationship with Christ. I had no doubts that God's word was true, that He loved me, that He sent His holy spirit to dwell within me, and all the rest. Where my belief is at now, does not negate where my belief was at then. I can use the Santa Claus analogy again as an example, if you no longer believe in Santa, does that mean you never really believed? (Once again, this is just an example! I am not comparing the two, and I know that when it comes to a relationship with Christ, it goes way beyond believing. It is a living faith that encompasses ones' entire life verses a simple blind belief. I'm just using it for example purposes how future unbelief should have no impact on the genuinity of former belief.)

And that is all for now. Thanks again for the responses.

None of this explains why you are here. To attempt to make others doubt? To hope to be persuaded to believe "again".?

As I read this post, what strikes me is the "faith" you say you had seems to have been grounded in what YOU did and how YOU felt. Very little on what JESUS did. And who Jesus is.

I ask again. What is the purpose of coming here? And yes, I recognize you absolutely have the right to do so. But what is YOUR motivation for telling us you think you are an apostate?
 
Its quite ok brother it is all cool to me :)

hey look at Nathanal all he needed to believe was Jesus saying He saw him under the fig tree before He even seen him, now look at Peter and others took a long time to believe yet Jesus is very patient look at what Peter ended up doing even his shadow could heal that's powerful belief in my book.

God created us vulnerable and weak satan wasn't about to honor and praise us humans because of that.

i ask this question is loving others being vulnerable a wiliness to be hurt. Hearts should be like glass in my opinion no light can shine through a covered hardened heart, things will just bounce right off a hardened heart but a glass takes breaks cracks does use dock tape to patch it but by using clear superglue so the light can shine through.

Yes loving others is being vulnerable.
And if are willing to be hurt whilst loving then we are walking in true love.

I think in a sense before we come to faith our hearts are hard.
Not towards others as such. I know many people who are not believers but do genuinely love others.
But that tends to be to those that love them back.

Jesus address this.

Matthew 5:44-48
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

But we know God does give as a new heart

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

What I find interesting and you mentioned Peter.

His emotions and fear led him to deny Jesus.
He feared for his own life.

When Jesus restored him he asked him 3 times "Do you love me?
3 times Peter replied "Yes I love you"

But

The first two times Jesus said "Do you agape me? (Perfect love, one that is willing to die for, the same love Jesus has for us)
Peter responded with "I Phileo love you (brotherly love)

The third time Jesus asks Peter "Do you Phileo me"

Peter gets upset.

Yet we know Peter moved from Phileo to Agape.
Peter was killed as a result of his Agape love for Jesus.

A heart that denied him to a heart that dies for him.

I think part of the problem is that when we read the Bible we see great men of God willing to die.
It's like they never struggled.

Yet when we look at Peter and David and others it's a different story

Luke 5:8
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!”
 
I don't think many Christians realize, I know that I certainly didn't, how many of the difficult life questions Christianity has an answer for, so that we don't have to worry about it. As a newborn agnostic, I was rudely awakened to these difficult questions. What is my purpose in life?
The life purpose of the Christian is to one day inhabit God's kingdom, where the new desires of the heart can be lived out without hindrance or persecution. For now we live in a spiritual kingdom full of thorns and thistles and all kinds of stumbling blocks that hinder our love for God.




What should I use as my moral compass?
"love your neighbor as yourself"

It's ALL about loving people like you love yourself......without conditions, and always concerned about your well being. That's how God loves. He loves apart from the merit of the person being loved and always with the well being of the person in mind. You know, like how we are so careful to love ourselves.

Set your compass to that setting and you will not be tossed to and fro with all the ridiculous winds of doctrine in the church designed to knock you off course and which in the end leave you helplessly bobbing up and down on a sea of hopelessness waiting for the next wind of doctrine, or the latest hip Christian song to rescue you and make life worth living again.

Christian joy comes from Christian obedience......specifically, the obedience to love others as God loves them- (John 15:11). That's "faith expressing itself in love"-Galatians 5:6.




What do I rely on for strength?
The fact that God has forgiven your sins in Christ.

At first Christians want to say to rely on the Holy Spirit. And that is true. That is the actual power to keep believing and living for God. But under it all, the Christian keeps believing because the forgiveness of sin he/she has received in Christ is worth more than anything else in all of life. When the forgiveness of your sins is no longer the most valuable thing you posses that is when other loves move in to separate you from your love for and faith in God and you are susceptible to falling away from God.




These are questions as a Christian that I readily and easily had an answer for. Not so much afterwards. That kind of worldview shift can be a little traumatizing at first. Like a big tree with many roots being removed from the soil.
Exactly.

The word of God was uprooted from your heart and you stopped believing. That is the second type of soil in the Parable of the Sower.

The deeper the roots go down, the harder they are to uproot. Faith with shallow roots can be uprooted easier than a more firmly rooted faith, like the word that goes down deep in the fourth type of soil. Jesus says that is the soil where the word holds fast and produces fruit in perseverance.




The soil is going to be a little messed up for a while, but it will eventually settle, and it did.
The scary part about this being, God really does, ultimately, let a person return to the world if that's really what they want and he won't haunt them after they go back to unbelief. You go back to just like it was before you had any interaction with the gospel before your salvation when you knew about the gospel but it was of no consequence either way, just something you heard about. A state of knowing about the gospel but absent of any activity of the Spirit's calling and conviction to believe and trust in it.
 
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As I read this post, what strikes me is the "faith" you say you had seems to have been grounded in what YOU did and how YOU felt. Very little on what JESUS did. And who Jesus is.

mhmm. have a look at what he thinks is 'evidence of being a genuine Christian'


So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.
. . .
1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.
. . .
2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).
. . .
2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).

...

sinners prayer? not Biblical at all.
'invite the Holy Spirit into my heart' ? not Biblical at all.
'church attendance, enjoying worship, desiring to serve God, love God, pray, be convicted ((i.e. repentance))' ?-- these aren't bad things, but none of them prove anything but 'churchianity' -- self imposed behavior modification, a certain set of expected emotional responses, and a handful of totally non-Biblical ritual acts. all this stuff, this is merchandise. this is how people get convinced they're 'christians' when what they believe and do doesn't really match what's actually in the scripture. they buy the t-shirt and think well that's it, because someone told them that buying the t-shirt was what you needed to do. and they put money in the plate and the band played on. and that 'churchianity' turned out to be unable to satisfy the soul, so they ditched it -- and thought they'd become an ex-Christian.

what they really became is an ex-churchian. that's not the same.

one thing left:

faith in Christ.

and that's exactly what's missing and the only thing that the Bible actually says is necessary: that we believe the Son; that is what nogard has forsaken.
so, the question becomes, did you ever really trust Him if that trust is something that is possible to later turn your back on?

i want to know what 'faith in Christ' means to nogard. what exactly did you have 'faith' in?
 
((because if you came from a place where you got the idea that saying some magic words near the podium, attending a show weekly and having all the 'right' feels = you're a Christian, then maybe what you think you know about who Christ is and what having faith in Him means, what you were taught about it, ain't correct.))

this probably describes a large majority of people who check the box 'Christian' on surveys. :(
 
I go by my heart that is all I need. even if one might say will what scripture teaches is as well basis to live by. How does a person believe that by feeling it in the heart quite simple for me at least.
"The heart is deceitful for out from it cometh murderers,fornicators,and liars".
 
Why people believe that faith is not something you feel is beyond me.
And that is because it is not some mere"feeling" it is what leads to a "changed life" going by feelings will lead you into a ditch fast,where as "letting" the holy spirit guide you leads to so much more than anything mere "feelings" can ever do,for example my very first day being saved I remember well because I pretty much made an "utter fool of myself" because I was "excited" and "ready to serve" but I now realize satan intercepted my plan for service with glee sending on a wild goose chase.
I got it in my head that my first mission for God was to get a pack of pipe tobacco for my cousin that I never got a present for and ended up traveling miles in a circle eventually reaching my destination bound and determined but in the end had to face the tough reality that I had been "tricked" and needed to "learn" concerning when the holy spirit is calling and when I'm just wound up about something,quite a difference.
 
indeed and in the heart shall you find truth not in the flesh of the heart but deep sense inside you.

can people be led astray by false senses sure they can, that why it's important to study scripture and reason. though not everything is perfect in the bible because God didn't use perfect people to write it, but things are written as such so we can reason the truth. the bible gives choice, God is a God of choice, the other side of the coin doesn't want people to choose so it lies steals and cheats people out of their choices.
No it is in within your heart and soul that you can find truth for the heart just as the mind alone will merely have you to seek "vanity" but within one's soul where the holy spirit resides after accepting him you find truth.
 
Well, I was hoping for an actual discussion. Where people, you know, actually share opinions and such rather than cast premature judgment. Also, I should note I am not trying to deconvert anyone, but I am trying to get people to acknowledge that ex-Christians do exist...so I guess I am guilty of that.

One person said what do I have to add to this conversation. Well, it's a very repetitive one for sure.

So basically, the same thing always happens when I try to prove that I was a genuine believer, no matter how I approach it:

1a. Mention the sinner's prayer as a starting point for my walk with Christ.

Response: "Just saying a prayer doesn't make you a genuine Christian, you need have a repentant heart and develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ"

1b. Don't mention the sinner's prayer, but instead mention how I repented of my sin and explain my faith in Christ.

Response: "Oh see, you never actually entered into a relationship with Christ or invited Christ into your life. You were simply just believing."

2a. Emphasize the external evidences of how I was a believer (church, love of worship, desire to serve God).

Response: "These are just works. It takes faith to be a true believer!"

2b. Emphasize the internal evidences of how I was a believer (love for God, prayer life, spirit of conviction).


Response: "All talk. Where are the fruits of your faith! I'm not seeing anything tangible that would make me think you were ever genuine."

Sigh.....No matter what I say or how I try to say it, they simply cannot accept that I was a genuine believer in Christ. I try to clarify the best I can, but the only response I usually get is one random verse thrown at me with the individual saying, "sorry, but I trust the word of God over you."

The irony there is that it's not the word of God that you are trusting, it's your interpretation of the word of God that you are trusting. Big difference there. We already covered how certain Christians believe that genuine ex-Christians can exist. So just be mindful that it is your personal interpretation of Scripture that you are choosing to side with.

So where does that leave the discussion. Well, my questions at the end of my first post seem like a good place to start. Let's talk about this. If anyone wants to, that is.

So you're an atheist, and you came here just to argue with Christians?


Lovely way to spend your weekend.


 
Maybe I will share my story a little later. I have to leave now for a bit. But just to quickly address this.

I don't think many Christians realize, I know that I certainly didn't, how many of the difficult life questions Christianity has an answer for, so that we don't have to worry about it. As a newborn agnostic, I was rudely awakened to these difficult questions. What is my purpose in life? What should I use as my moral compass? What do I rely on for strength? These are questions as a Christian that I readily and easily had an answer for. Not so much afterwards. That kind of worldview shift can be a little traumatizing at first. Like a big tree with many roots being removed from the soil. The soil is going to be a little messed up for a while, but it will eventually settle, and it did.
That's where our lives begin "asking questions" even after we grow up past being mere children we can still be in the dark,doubting,questioning,worrying,it's when we start "accepting answers" that we become "credible" and "more mature spiritually" nothing is accomplished from being a "wonderer" eventually one must establish "what one believes sincerely" whatever that may be lest you end up as nothing more than a fool rambling,wondering,and crying without end.
 
mhmm. have a look at what he thinks is 'evidence of being a genuine Christian'




sinners prayer? not Biblical at all.
'invite the Holy Spirit into my heart' ? not Biblical at all.
'church attendance, enjoying worship, desiring to serve God, love God, pray, be convicted ((i.e. repentance))' ?-- these aren't bad things, but none of them prove anything but 'churchianity' -- self imposed behavior modification, a certain set of expected emotional responses, and a handful of totally non-Biblical ritual acts. all this stuff, this is merchandise. this is how people get convinced they're 'christians' when what they believe and do doesn't really match what's actually in the scripture. they buy the t-shirt and think well that's it, because someone told them that buying the t-shirt was what you needed to do. and they put money in the plate and the band played on. and that 'churchianity' turned out to be unable to satisfy the soul, so they ditched it -- and thought they'd become an ex-Christian.

what they really became is an ex-churchian. that's not the same.

one thing left:

faith in Christ.

and that's exactly what's missing and the only thing that the Bible actually says is necessary: that we believe the Son; that is what nogard has forsaken.
so, the question becomes, did you ever really trust Him if that trust is something that is possible to later turn your back on?

i want to know what 'faith in Christ' means to nogard. what exactly did you have 'faith' in?
One would hope that one would learn that to be a "genuine follower/servant" to God/Jesus is to accept Jesus and his works and serve him "unto death" it's not some easy simple "picnic".
 
Nogard, regardless of which group is right, you have a serious situation. If you've lost your salvation, you need to repent and come back to Jesus. If you haven't, then you need to come back to Jesus. Either way, you need Jesus.
 
First, let me say that God is the judge. I don’t know people’s hearts. But I do know the Bible, and I have my own experiences with God.

First, I made a commitment to Christ at age 11. But, my parents were not Christians, I ended up going to Sunday School in an apostate church, and I had no support. I tried reading the Bible on my own, even memorizing whole chapters. I wanted to serve God. But, the world and its temptations called me, and I fell away. Was I ever really saved? I don’t know, I hope to ask Jesus one day.

I was finally born again at age 26. It was a total miracle of God. I read my Bible daily, went to church, helped in church, and witnessed to the lost. I had an active prayer life. I read lots of books and magazines about God. Went to prayer meetings, etc.

I was saved over 20 years when I got sick with Rheumatoid Arthritis. Of course, it wasn’t enough just to be severely ill and in terrible pain, I was not being aggressively treated by my doctor, the deformities piled up. I was exhausted. I was crying out to God daily for help.

Instead of help, I got Job’s friends, condemning me because I was not healed. Accusing me of not having faith. Telling me I was weak. They left me in ashes, after doing the damage. I kept reading my Bible, finally gave up going to church, praying, and last, I put my Bible on the shelf for 2 years.

I was as turned away from God as a person could get. Yet, God did not turn away from me. He was faithful. He called me back, told me to read 5 psalms a day. I saw a whole new story emerging from the Bible. I found a new church, I complained and got on better meds, while my Word Faith friends were the ones sick and dying.

This conversation is so “all about me.” My faith, my spiritual walk, what I decide being a Christian is all about! The OP seems to think being a “Christian” is about him! No wonder he was not a Christian, despite a relationship he might have thought he had. It’s not like he fell away due to sin. He just came to a crisis and walked away. The hand of the Lord was not on him.

When I turned my back on God, it did not matter. What matter is that God did not turn his back on me. He used my time in the wilderness to shape me, mold me and change me for HIS glory! He allowed that very dark time for me to learn about a whole new ministry to the hurting and broken.

Nogard, you are also hurting and broken. You say you have lost God, but how could you lose the God of the universe? How could you walk away from the one who knows everything about you, from the time you were formed in the womb. If you say I am judging, I have tried not to. Just looked at your words, and found nothing about God, but emptiness, blankness and a void instead of God.

Until you can admit your pride, and walk away from your atheism, by submitting to God, you have proved you were not a Christian. A Christian is someone who follows Jesus Christ. They do not follow their own ideas. They call out to God, and he hears the cry of their hearts. You are short on details, but it seems like you just walked away from God, as the doubts got bigger, instead of asking him to show himself.

I think every true Christian is the one who perseveres to the end. You have not done that. You are not born again, because you cannot die in your spirit, God will not let you. He promises to never leave or forsake you. My prayer is that you will come back to God, instead of haunting the fringes of Christian forums, asking defiant questions, challenging people that you believed, and now you don’t. Well, God is in control, he knows what he is about. I’m sorry you can’t see that!
 
One would hope that one would learn that to be a "genuine follower/servant" to God/Jesus is to accept Jesus and his works and serve him "unto death" it's not some easy simple "picnic".

it's life changing. i can't become an 'ex-believer' anymore than i can wake up tomorrow and decide i no longer believe the atmosphere is breathable or be convinced that my heart doesn't beat.

???

i don't understand when people say this. i can only guess, they don't know what they're talking about. they're using the words, but they don't know what they mean. Christ is real
 
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it's life changing. i can't become an 'ex-believer' anymore than i can wake up tomorrow and decide i no longer believe the atmosphere is breathable or be convinced that my heart doesn't beat.

???

i don't understand when people say this. i can only guess, they don't know what they're talking about. they're using the words, but they don't know what they mean. Christ is real
Ah to be naive again thinking one "knows everything"...
 
Yes they do. They're known as backsliders
Gal 5
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

This of course a falling away from Jesus & turning back to the Law, which is sin.

Any known unrepentant sin will do the same as this sin. It will separate you from God.
 
Well, this has gotten quite a few responses. Thanks to everyone who contributed the discussion.

To the group of people still doubting my genuine faith. I don't know what more to say. I believed I was a born again Christian from age 10 to about age 23. Inbetween that time, my faith in Christ was real and living. I prayed nightly. I loved worshiping God through song. My identity in Christ was the driving force in my life that affected all other things I did. I went to a Christian middle school and high school and for a time considered going into the ministry. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 13. It took me a year to do it, but oh how I grew in the faith that one year. I loved God, truly. I believed the Holy Spirit dwelt within me, as promised in Scripture. I believed my salvation was not my own doing; God was given the glory for that.....I just don't know what more to say. I understand that for many of you, someone like me simply can't exist, as it doesn't coincide with your particular worldview. So you make up some excuse as to why I was never really a true Christian, and go back to pretending we don't exist. And for those who fall in that group, I'm not sure what more I can say.

A few other observations. Ralph, I appreciate your perspective. You have left several insightful comments, and even correctly deduced my reason for making this topic. You want to know the ironic thing? Back when I was a believer, I sided with the OSAS people. I believed that there was no such thing as genuine ex-Christians, and just assumed all people claiming to be so were just ex-catholics who only went to church twice a year or something like that. I believed in eternal security, because I feel that that viewpoint was better backed in Scripture than the alternate. So oddly enough, while I never was amongst your point of view as a believer, I am thankful for your responses and your insight.

For those who said that I had a weak faith and fell away because of that. Well, I'd have to disagree, but ultimately agree I guess. Back when I was a believer, I felt my faith was very strong, and I fed the fires of my faith in many ways to keep it strong. Anyone remember the song "shout to the lord"? It was one of my favorites as a young person. My favorite line in the song was "forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" and I believed it wholeheartedly when I sang it. I thought that I could lose everything else in this world, but I'd always have Christ and my faith in Him. I think that's why my crisis of faith blindsided me so much. Various things started chipping away. It was not just one thing and it did not take just one day. And I did not go down quietly. I struggled to keep my faith for two years before finally acknowledging that I no longer believe. When I made that acknowledgement, it felt like I lost my best friend. Like a part of me was missing. So was my faith weak? Maybe so...after all I did fall away. But when I was in the faith, it sure seemed extremely strong.

AuntieAnnie, and others like you, thank you for your responses. I am not going to pretend to know what the future has in store for me. My worldview has shifted wildly once, maybe it could again. But right now, I'm in a state of mind where I couldn't believe even if I wanted to. As I referenced above, I didn't actually want to lose my faith. And you might say, "if you want to believe again, then just do it, call out to God and ask for forgiveness." The problem is, we actually can't just believe in anything we want to believe in. For example, I can't make myself believe in Santa Claus anymore. No matter how hard I try or want to believe it, there are intellectual barriers that are preventing that from happening. Now I am not equating God with Santa Claus, those are two completely different things, and it would be insulting to Christianity to equate the two. What I was simply doing was showing an example of how we don't have full control over what we can believe in.

JesusLives, I thank you for your encouraging post. Not many responses to me were what I'd consider friendly, but I could really see love coming from that post you made and it was nice to see that.

Posthuman, you gave an interesting philosophical argument there. What you're saying is that since I no longer believe now, then I must currently believe that I never had a relationship with Christ since I currently don't believe he ever existed. I'll admit, this is true. BUT that doesn't change what I did believe at the time I was a Christian. When I was a Christian, I did full-heartedly believe in my relationship with Christ. I had no doubts that God's word was true, that He loved me, that He sent His holy spirit to dwell within me, and all the rest. Where my belief is at now, does not negate where my belief was at then. I can use the Santa Claus analogy again as an example, if you no longer believe in Santa, does that mean you never really believed? (Once again, this is just an example! I am not comparing the two, and I know that when it comes to a relationship with Christ, it goes way beyond believing. It is a living faith that encompasses ones' entire life verses a simple blind belief. I'm just using it for example purposes how future unbelief should have no impact on the genuinity of former belief.)

And that is all for now. Thanks again for the responses.

To start off, if you were a child of God time will tell. Meaning, you have a joyous reunion (with God) ahead of you.

Why are you seeking validation from Christians? This is what sticks out to me. What do you gain from Christians coming in agreement with you, that you were once a true believer and then fell away from the faith? How does this discussion benefit you? I consider that maybe you feel that Christians coming in agreement with you allows you to have a defense before God. Subconsciously you still believe and so outwardly you are in your perceived state of condemnation trying to justify your denial of God. Is this perspective speculation? Maybe, but its peculiar.

Your comparison of God and Santa falls short on account that one is real and another fictitious (from the get go). All the while you believed in Santa it was a lie, and all the time you believe in God, it was the truth. The moment you denied Him, was the moment you fell into deception.

You said that we cannot just believe what we want, that you have barriers to your belief in God. If you will describe in detail these barriers, they can be addressed. Maybe refuted satisfactorily for you, and then you can return to God, your Father who loves you. Even then, maybe you had an emotional response, holding anger towards God or bitterness as a result of circumstances in your life. I don't know. What can be deduced is that your faith was shaken as a result of something. We must understand what that something was, and why you put so much emphasis on it as your bedrock to your faith.

I will not tell you if your faith was sincere or not, again time will tell but I will tell you this. God loves you. This may mean nothing to you, because you profess to not even believe in His existence. Yet, whether it is that you are a non-believer or one that has fell into deception, it is God's goodness that leads to repentance. So know, God loves you, Jesus died for you, and through Jesus you are reconciled to God because He paid for your sins and resurrected on the third day (after His death) for your justification before God. This is the Gospel, this is good news.