I agree with this.
But, I don't see the different types of soil being as different people. We can have all these types of soil in our life until the soil is right for planting.
But, I guess it could be both. Individuals or one experiences.
Do genuine ex-Christians exist? (Discussion Topic)
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I agree with this.
But, I don't see the different types of soil being as different people. We can have all these types of soil in our life until the soil is right for planting.
But, I guess it could be both. Individuals or one experiences.
Sure it does. Because verse 20 shows that there's a difference between those who aren't and those who are-of us.
R
Ralph-
Guest
R
Ralph-
Guest
Why is John telling those that remain and who do know the truth and are saved to remain in Christ if it is impossible for them to not remain in Christ?
"As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24
This would not only be unnecessary to say to them but unfitting to warn them about if he was saying in vs. 19 that only fake believers are the ones who can fall away.
To me it's not something that one cannot feel and align with when it comes to faith.
David himself said "Restore to me the joy of your salvation"
Yes God does give us joy, he gives us peace and so on.
But the reality is that believers can and do rely or believe a faulty concept of God which hinders their walk with God and those feelings can come from the heart.
A simple example and sadly very common "I must work harder in order to be loved" so when they fail their feelings tell them God does not love them.
Yet the truth is that God does love them.
I have shocked by the amount of believers who do not realise that God loves them as much as he loves Jesus.
Even when I show them the Bible verse they still don't get it.
Here is where I would say sheep versus sons.
But, I know most here do not see it this way. Yet.
A very good point, Bill. So many of my Pentecostal friends would be so sad because they didn't "feel the Holy Spirit.". And they didn't know what to think of me, because I was full of joy most of the time, but I didn't get slain in the spirit, or any of the other things they believed were necessary: They didn't see me losing control of myself, so they figured I must be missing something.
L
LPT
Guest
all these are temptions of evil, satan knows how to attack the heart it was designed to be vulnerable and feelings can be a weakness and satan knows of that.
When the bible speaks of flesh it's talking the conscious mind, can your foot or lungs be bad yes if you use them as such and your mind is what determines that not your physical foot or lung.
thats the sickness of evil, yea you need more people to love you and if it does not happen your worthless and God doesn't love you, a trick of satan.
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Oh boy did I fall foul myself.
Once we told (as a young believer) because I did not pray in tongues I was not saved.
The reason for my posts is because it's dear to my heart.
My background and upbringing was shocking.
So feelings dictated my life.
If I behaved I was loved, if not I was beaten.
As a young man thrown out by my mum and fostered by a Christan family only to be sexually abused by my foster dad.
Can you imagine what that did to me emotions?
And those emotions and damage and baggage was carried into my Christian life.
I got some shocking advice from belivers I tried to talk to.
The worst being "Get over it, worse has happened to others"
So I'm passionate about this.
I offer my apologies to the OP, I have taken this thread off at a tangent but I cannot help myself.
Well, this has gotten quite a few responses. Thanks to everyone who contributed the discussion.
To the group of people still doubting my genuine faith. I don't know what more to say. I believed I was a born again Christian from age 10 to about age 23. Inbetween that time, my faith in Christ was real and living. I prayed nightly. I loved worshiping God through song. My identity in Christ was the driving force in my life that affected all other things I did. I went to a Christian middle school and high school and for a time considered going into the ministry. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 13. It took me a year to do it, but oh how I grew in the faith that one year. I loved God, truly. I believed the Holy Spirit dwelt within me, as promised in Scripture. I believed my salvation was not my own doing; God was given the glory for that.....I just don't know what more to say. I understand that for many of you, someone like me simply can't exist, as it doesn't coincide with your particular worldview. So you make up some excuse as to why I was never really a true Christian, and go back to pretending we don't exist. And for those who fall in that group, I'm not sure what more I can say.
A few other observations. Ralph, I appreciate your perspective. You have left several insightful comments, and even correctly deduced my reason for making this topic. You want to know the ironic thing? Back when I was a believer, I sided with the OSAS people. I believed that there was no such thing as genuine ex-Christians, and just assumed all people claiming to be so were just ex-catholics who only went to church twice a year or something like that. I believed in eternal security, because I feel that that viewpoint was better backed in Scripture than the alternate. So oddly enough, while I never was amongst your point of view as a believer, I am thankful for your responses and your insight.
For those who said that I had a weak faith and fell away because of that. Well, I'd have to disagree, but ultimately agree I guess. Back when I was a believer, I felt my faith was very strong, and I fed the fires of my faith in many ways to keep it strong. Anyone remember the song "shout to the lord"? It was one of my favorites as a young person. My favorite line in the song was "forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" and I believed it wholeheartedly when I sang it. I thought that I could lose everything else in this world, but I'd always have Christ and my faith in Him. I think that's why my crisis of faith blindsided me so much. Various things started chipping away. It was not just one thing and it did not take just one day. And I did not go down quietly. I struggled to keep my faith for two years before finally acknowledging that I no longer believe. When I made that acknowledgement, it felt like I lost my best friend. Like a part of me was missing. So was my faith weak? Maybe so...after all I did fall away. But when I was in the faith, it sure seemed extremely strong.
AuntieAnnie, and others like you, thank you for your responses. I am not going to pretend to know what the future has in store for me. My worldview has shifted wildly once, maybe it could again. But right now, I'm in a state of mind where I couldn't believe even if I wanted to. As I referenced above, I didn't actually want to lose my faith. And you might say, "if you want to believe again, then just do it, call out to God and ask for forgiveness." The problem is, we actually can't just believe in anything we want to believe in. For example, I can't make myself believe in Santa Claus anymore. No matter how hard I try or want to believe it, there are intellectual barriers that are preventing that from happening. Now I am not equating God with Santa Claus, those are two completely different things, and it would be insulting to Christianity to equate the two. What I was simply doing was showing an example of how we don't have full control over what we can believe in.
JesusLives, I thank you for your encouraging post. Not many responses to me were what I'd consider friendly, but I could really see love coming from that post you made and it was nice to see that.
Posthuman, you gave an interesting philosophical argument there. What you're saying is that since I no longer believe now, then I must currently believe that I never had a relationship with Christ since I currently don't believe he ever existed. I'll admit, this is true. BUT that doesn't change what I did believe at the time I was a Christian. When I was a Christian, I did full-heartedly believe in my relationship with Christ. I had no doubts that God's word was true, that He loved me, that He sent His holy spirit to dwell within me, and all the rest. Where my belief is at now, does not negate where my belief was at then. I can use the Santa Claus analogy again as an example, if you no longer believe in Santa, does that mean you never really believed? (Once again, this is just an example! I am not comparing the two, and I know that when it comes to a relationship with Christ, it goes way beyond believing. It is a living faith that encompasses ones' entire life verses a simple blind belief. I'm just using it for example purposes how future unbelief should have no impact on the genuinity of former belief.)
And that is all for now. Thanks again for the responses.
To the group of people still doubting my genuine faith. I don't know what more to say. I believed I was a born again Christian from age 10 to about age 23. Inbetween that time, my faith in Christ was real and living. I prayed nightly. I loved worshiping God through song. My identity in Christ was the driving force in my life that affected all other things I did. I went to a Christian middle school and high school and for a time considered going into the ministry. The first time I read the Bible cover to cover was when I was 13. It took me a year to do it, but oh how I grew in the faith that one year. I loved God, truly. I believed the Holy Spirit dwelt within me, as promised in Scripture. I believed my salvation was not my own doing; God was given the glory for that.....I just don't know what more to say. I understand that for many of you, someone like me simply can't exist, as it doesn't coincide with your particular worldview. So you make up some excuse as to why I was never really a true Christian, and go back to pretending we don't exist. And for those who fall in that group, I'm not sure what more I can say.
A few other observations. Ralph, I appreciate your perspective. You have left several insightful comments, and even correctly deduced my reason for making this topic. You want to know the ironic thing? Back when I was a believer, I sided with the OSAS people. I believed that there was no such thing as genuine ex-Christians, and just assumed all people claiming to be so were just ex-catholics who only went to church twice a year or something like that. I believed in eternal security, because I feel that that viewpoint was better backed in Scripture than the alternate. So oddly enough, while I never was amongst your point of view as a believer, I am thankful for your responses and your insight.
For those who said that I had a weak faith and fell away because of that. Well, I'd have to disagree, but ultimately agree I guess. Back when I was a believer, I felt my faith was very strong, and I fed the fires of my faith in many ways to keep it strong. Anyone remember the song "shout to the lord"? It was one of my favorites as a young person. My favorite line in the song was "forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" and I believed it wholeheartedly when I sang it. I thought that I could lose everything else in this world, but I'd always have Christ and my faith in Him. I think that's why my crisis of faith blindsided me so much. Various things started chipping away. It was not just one thing and it did not take just one day. And I did not go down quietly. I struggled to keep my faith for two years before finally acknowledging that I no longer believe. When I made that acknowledgement, it felt like I lost my best friend. Like a part of me was missing. So was my faith weak? Maybe so...after all I did fall away. But when I was in the faith, it sure seemed extremely strong.
AuntieAnnie, and others like you, thank you for your responses. I am not going to pretend to know what the future has in store for me. My worldview has shifted wildly once, maybe it could again. But right now, I'm in a state of mind where I couldn't believe even if I wanted to. As I referenced above, I didn't actually want to lose my faith. And you might say, "if you want to believe again, then just do it, call out to God and ask for forgiveness." The problem is, we actually can't just believe in anything we want to believe in. For example, I can't make myself believe in Santa Claus anymore. No matter how hard I try or want to believe it, there are intellectual barriers that are preventing that from happening. Now I am not equating God with Santa Claus, those are two completely different things, and it would be insulting to Christianity to equate the two. What I was simply doing was showing an example of how we don't have full control over what we can believe in.
JesusLives, I thank you for your encouraging post. Not many responses to me were what I'd consider friendly, but I could really see love coming from that post you made and it was nice to see that.
Posthuman, you gave an interesting philosophical argument there. What you're saying is that since I no longer believe now, then I must currently believe that I never had a relationship with Christ since I currently don't believe he ever existed. I'll admit, this is true. BUT that doesn't change what I did believe at the time I was a Christian. When I was a Christian, I did full-heartedly believe in my relationship with Christ. I had no doubts that God's word was true, that He loved me, that He sent His holy spirit to dwell within me, and all the rest. Where my belief is at now, does not negate where my belief was at then. I can use the Santa Claus analogy again as an example, if you no longer believe in Santa, does that mean you never really believed? (Once again, this is just an example! I am not comparing the two, and I know that when it comes to a relationship with Christ, it goes way beyond believing. It is a living faith that encompasses ones' entire life verses a simple blind belief. I'm just using it for example purposes how future unbelief should have no impact on the genuinity of former belief.)
And that is all for now. Thanks again for the responses.
L
LPT
Guest
Well if all possible never forget that early feeling you had, satan is working you like job putting anything and everything in your way to pull you away. you had the feeling once in your life when you we young it's still there but you have buried it. like a child a block away from home who can hear the parents call to come home for dinner but if your 10 miles way you won't hear a thing you have to look at your watch for the time to go home, like the prodigal son had to look at his watch.
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
L
LPT
Guest
Trust me, when I tell ya! You'll be back! (don't ask me how I know this!!)
Ciao!
I can believe in this as well his only 29 and has many more years to go then again who knows, that in its self is something to think about.
This is what I'd be interested in hearing more about. You mentioned earlier that one of those crisis points was something about the integrity of the bible (my paraphrase). I can see that being a crisis to a pseudo-, or maybe immature, faith, but for me personally that same "crisis" was a tremendous growth opportunity.
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I like HeRoseFromtheDead would be interested to know what you felt/feel that led you away from believing.
The causes of the effect.
You say you struggled to keep it. That's interesting.
Then you say it felt like I lost my best friend and part of me was missing. Interesting also. Why would you feel that way if it wasn't true in the first place? If Jesus was not true then why miss him, after all it's a lie. Why miss a lie/liar?
I was intentionally trying to leave that aspect vague as the purpose of this topic, for me, was moreso to acknowledge the existence of ex-Christians rather than explain the reasons for losing my faith. If enough people want it to go in that direction, I can explain what happened to me personally and what factors led to it, but know that the story is a little different (though often similar in some ways) for each person that has experienced this.
Just to briefly address your comment though, I used the term "crisis of faith" in my attempt at a vague expression, but it's important to note there is a difference between a Christian having an internal crisis of faith (doubting God's promises or His timing) and an external crisis of faith (doubting God's existence). I was actually really into apologetics as a Christian and loved debating matters of the faith both with Christians (concerning doctrines with divided opinions) and atheists (concerning the merits of Christianity). I feel I grew a lot in my faith by doing that, so I totally understand where you are coming from as far as doubt and testing being good growth opportunities. It doesn't always end that way though.
Maybe I will share my story a little later. I have to leave now for a bit. But just to quickly address this.
I don't think many Christians realize, I know that I certainly didn't, how many of the difficult life questions Christianity has an answer for, so that we don't have to worry about it. As a newborn agnostic, I was rudely awakened to these difficult questions. What is my purpose in life? What should I use as my moral compass? What do I rely on for strength? These are questions as a Christian that I readily and easily had an answer for. Not so much afterwards. That kind of worldview shift can be a little traumatizing at first. Like a big tree with many roots being removed from the soil. The soil is going to be a little messed up for a while, but it will eventually settle, and it did.