The Rapture

[CS1]

Brother Endoscopy,

I'm sure that you agree that Jesus in ruling from the eternal throne of David in heaven right now. Jesus is in His glory on that throne. He left that glory and came to this earth, where He suffered and died.

Will Jesus again, leave the throne of glory behind? Leave His glory behind? Not be glorified for a thousand years?

You are saying that Jesus will bring His glory with Him, the throne of God, to this material world where He will rule in a material Jerusalem on planet earth.

But no man can see His face and live Ex 33:20. So everyone on earth would be dead if that were to happen.

What happens when the material planet meets the face of Jesus is shown in Rev 20:11, They fly away from His face because they are not perfect, but constantly changing in a state of decay.

Only that which is perfect can remain in His presence and see His face, or God would become imperfect.






Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


This shows the end of the times of the gentiles where Israel is restored to Jerusalem. Also see Lk 21:20-24, 24.



Matt 24:1-2, The prophecy Jesus makes about the temple of His time, which was fulfilled in 70 ad.

24:3, The questions about when the prophecy about the 70 ad temple will be fulfilled.

24:4-5, Warning about false Christ's to come before the destruction.

24:6-8, Description of events before the destruction of 70 ad.

24:9-14, Persecution of the apostles. This was spoken to the 4 apostles present at the time Mk 13:3, and fulfilled by them.

24:15, The AoD of Daniel happens before 70 ad., to satisfy the requirement in Daniel that Jesus is involved in the time line/period. It cannot happen in the future because it has already been fulfilled. No gaps in the timeline.

24:16-21, Those in Judea are to flee when the Romans are coming to destroy Jerusalem and Israel Lk 21:20, surrounding the city. The great trouble is the time after Israel/Judea flee, after 70 ad. The times of the gentiles 70 ad-1967 Lk 21:24.

24:22, If the time was not shortened, no flesh (natural branches) of Israel would be saved alive to restore Jerusalem and end the ToG's.

24:23-26, Warning about false Christs.

24:27, The coming of Jesus at the dest of Jerusalem will be plainly seen, like lightning.

24:28, Death is coming at that time. Jerusalem, not the planet.
---

24:29, Immediately after the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad, the lights of God's word through Israel will be greatly dimmed.

24:30,The sign appears first, the sign is Israel returning from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem at the end of the times of the gentiles. See Lk 21:24.

24:30, The nations mourn when they see Jerusalem beginning to be restored. But this is not instant, there is time between these events, the sign, the mourning, and seeing Him. Apparently years.

24:31, This verse show a gathering, where previous verses have shown a scattering. But it is not the 7th trumpet gathering, it is the 5th trumpet of separation, calling on Israel to separate themselves from the gentile nations and return to Jerusalem. The 5th trumpet shows that they are driven out of the gentile nations, as they were well settled into place. Poland, Germany, Eastern Europe, etc.

24:32-33, As the kingdom/church of Israel began to grow in number, the natural branches were cut off. The result was that all the branches suffered, mainly at the hands of Rome (1900 yrs).

24:34, The apostle John lived to see the destruction of 70 ad, and the beginning of the ToG's.

24:35, Heaven and earth passed away for Israel. Shown at the 6th seal.

24:36, This verse was true when Jesus said it. But after receiving all power in heaven and earth, then He had to know the time, or He didn't receive "all power". He showed us in the Revelation, what His plans are.

I didn't want to "cherry pick".




Heb 12:18-24, We have not come to a material Mount Sion, or a material Jerusalem, as it says here. We have come to a spiritual mountain.

Heb 9:1, The first covenant had material things and ordinances. You want to hang on to these material things, as some do with the Law and Prophets.

Do you think that they will hold services and go through rituals to please Jesus? Maybe after services we'll all go have a chicken dinner pot luck once a month. Maybe it will be just like the Vatican, all fancy and all. Except instead of the Bishop of Rome, we can put Jesus there and go through the rituals there.

Oh wait, He will be in His glory, and we will see His face, is that a problem?

wow that is one big Allegorizing approach to eschatology

 

[CS1]

Those who are in debt will not make the Rapture.

those who are not in debt will make the pretrib Rapture
those in debt that will have it paid off in 3 1/2 year will make the Midtrib Rapture

those who are in Debt that will pay it off in 7 years; you stay for all the tribulation no Rapture for you.

 

[PlainWord]

Brother A-F,

Brother PW,

Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

This verse points to a time when all these things will cease.
​

You are implying. The verse does not say the earth will end. Did you read the verse right before this one?

"...

Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart ​

is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."

So, how will God keep His promise to, "(never) again destroy every living thing" if He dissolves the heavens and earth at some point in the future?"

This points out the difference between the verses about the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the planet by fire.​

There is no prediction of the literal earth ending by fire. Why would God ever destroy His heaven? If both dimensions, physical (earth) and spiritual (heaven) are destroyed, where will we be? You can follow the below and read what the destruction of "heaven and earth" really mean.

The Destruction of Heaven and Earth and the New Heaven and Earth Explained! - Revelation Revolution

In this thought 2 Pet 3:1-13, 7, 10, 12, Peter relates to the flood and the end of the planet by fire. See how it is stated that the heavens and the elements are "dissolved" and "melted".

The elements are earth, water, air, and fire in that time period. In the flood, the element water was given power over the other elements. Peter is showing that the fire is given power over the waters, air (heavens), and earth, to dissolve them.​

I previously posted that 2 Pet 3 dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem and demonstrated it pretty conclusively. Follow the link above and read the detailed explanation as it's too big to post here.

The "everything completed by 70 ad" theory has this as the destruction of Jerusalem. But that is where the interpretation has been created to fit the preconceived time line that everything must end by 70 ad.​

Again, not everything, most things. There are a few places that provide details of the "age to come" which is the age we are in.

You see, the apostles knew Jerusalem would be destroyed by Jesus using the armies of Rome. They knew that there would be a time period after that when the gentile nations would have authority over Jerusalem (ToG's). They Knew that when the ToG's had ended that Jerusalem would be restored.​

The ToG was the invasion of Jerusalem. This "restoration" of Jerusalem you keep mentioning, where is it found? Are you speaking of the "New Jerusalem (Rev 21)?" This was/is the Church. This is heavenly Jerusalem and is not a literal place on earth. The description of a 1,500 cubic mile city is a metaphor for a gigantic membership in the kingdom. A literal city of this size would extend far into space wiping out most satellites and ripping a gigantic gash in our atmosphere and ozone layer. The stresses and heat on this structure would cause the golden streets to melt.

If this was a literal city with the center at today's Jerusalem, the city would extend to Athens, Greece and to nearly Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. This is spiritual dude, John was in the spirit.

When the Bible uses a lot of symbolism, it can be hard to separate the subjects from one another. The sun and moon being darkened, the stars falling, are good examples of how people have trouble understanding the literal from the symbolic meaning. ​

Exactly, that's why I did a whole post showing that these heavenly anomalies are figurative and gave 4 examples in the OT where they were used to describe the destruction of four nations in the 6th century BC a few posts back.

Now we read what Peter said, is he talking about the 70 ad dest? or the end of the planet? 2 Pet 3:1-13. Maybe he thought that the events surrounding the end of the planet would come sooner, closer to 70 ad.​

He was discussing the dest of Jer. He never discusses the end of the planet - nobody does. All of them were discussing the end of Israel.

Brother,

This is a problem that must be resolved to understand.

Separating the coming of Jesus in 70 ad to destroy Jerusalem, and the #2 resurrection.

The #2 resurrection did not happen around 70 ad, it has yet to happen. The thought that the resur took place by 70 ad is a result of the misguided preconceived "70 ad finished" theory.​

The first resurrection of the just happened in 70 AD. The rest are resurrected after the thousand years are over and sent to the summer tropics. This is the second death.

 

[Endoscopy]

A-F,



I find no scripture that calls for the restoration of Israel following it's desolation in 70 AD. There is no scripture dealing with Hitler and the mass murder of 6 million Jews either.



Some point to the Crusades which began in 1071 AD. Not sure I buy into that. I think it is still future, but that is one of the few, if not only, passage left to fulfill.



I reject this theory. I don't see Jesus "coming for the kingdom" as we are in the kingdom now. There is no visible kingdom age on planet earth. However, there is a spiritual kingdom age on earth and we are in that age now.



Eternity happens once we physically die. This is when we enter the spiritual realm where the saints who went ahead are.



Because the physical city "Babylon" which was Jerusalem was destroyed earlier in Revelation. It could be today's Jerusalem in Rev 20. I'm open to that.



Jesus is finished with material Jerusalem. God broke the covenant with sinful Israel when He destroyed her. The Church doesn't replace Israel because the true Israel was first the believing, accepting Israel. We Gentile believers were grafted in with them. The Church began as Jewish, remember?



No, now you are placing 70 AD after the thousand year reign. The fire coming down I believe is future. The wheat/chaff was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. John the Baptist teaches this in Mt 3 when he tells the Pharisees what will become of them.

The stone from Dan is was Christ/Christianity. It smashed pagan Jerusalem in 70 AD then filled Rome in 300s AD when Christianity became the official religion of Rome. Keep in mind back then, everyone referred to Rome as "the habitable earth" like nothing outside the Roman Empire mattered and in fact the Bible does not mention any nation outside of the statue nations.



Not so good buddy. The wicked dead only rise at that time. The passage is clear, the rest of the dead rise then. The "rapture" was a 70 AD event. Living saints get to heaven immediately upon death with their fully glorified bodies as a reward. It is appointed for all men to die. No one gets a free pass from physical death, except the two mentioned.



Yes, the eternal state is the afterlife. It exists now and will continue forever and we get to go there upon death.

Used Google and found this. You seem to be in denial of prophecies. You want everything to be in the spiritual realm instead of real life.

Israel in Prophecies

Prophecies Currently Being Fulfilled
The Jewish people will be regathered in unbelief from the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 11:11-12). Fulfillment: 20th Century and continuing.
The state of Israel will be re-established (Isaiah 66:7-8 & Ezekiel 37:21-22). Fulfillment: May 14, 1948.
The Jews will once again re-occupy the city of Jerusalem (Zechariah 8:4-8), Fulfillment: June 7, 1967.
The land of Israel will be reclaimed from its desolation, becoming once again a land of agricultural abundance (Ezekiel 36:34-35). Fulfillment: 20th Century and continuing.
The Hebrew language will be revived from the dead (Zephaniah 3:9). Fulfillment: 19th & 20th Centuries.
All the nations of the world will come together against Israel over the issue of the control of Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:1-3). Fulfillment: Currently occurring.

Prophecies Yet To Be Fulfilled
The Arab nations of the world will attack Israel in a coordinated effort to annihilate the state (Psalm 83).
Israel will soundly defeat the Arab alliance (Zechariah 12:6).
Israel will dwell in security and prosperity (Ezekiel 38:11).
A Russian coalition consisting mainly of Muslim nations will invade Israel (Ezekiel 38:1-17).
The Russian coalition will be destroyed supernaturally by God (Ezekiel 38:18-23 & 39:1-8).
The Antichrist will intervene and guarantee the security of Israel, enabling the Jews to rebuild their Temple (Daniel 9:27).
At the end of three and a half years, the Antichrist will enter the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-18, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
The Jews will reject the Antichrist, and he will respond with an attempt to annihilate them, killing two-thirds of them in the process (Revelation 12:13-17 & Zechariah 13:8-9).
At the end of the Tribulation, when the Jews have come to the end of themselves, they will turn to God and receive Yeshua as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10, Romans 9:27-28, & Romans 11:25-27).
Jesus will return and regather all believing Jews to Israel (Deuteronomy 30:1-9).
Israel will be established as the prime nation in the world (Isaiah 2:1-4 & Micah 4:1-7).
The Lord will bless the Jewish remnant by fulfilling all the promises He has made to Israel (Isaiah 60:1-62:7).
The blessings of God will flow out to all the nations through the Jewish people during the Millennial rule of Jesus (Zechariah 8:22-23).

 

[abcdef]

wow that is one big Allegorizing approach to eschatology

Brother CS1,

Thank you, I think, ha,ha.

I'm just breaking out of the boxes of tradition, in some places. The difference is that the viewpoint changes, once it is confirmed in real present time events, such as the restoration of Jerusalem.

The recognition and confirmation of these events allows us to see where we are in the time line.

According to the placement of the events, in my opinion, we are moments before the 7th/last trumpet and the resur/rapt.

 

[abcdef]

A-F,



I find no scripture that calls for the restoration of Israel following it's desolation in 70 AD.

1. Rev 12, The woman is Israel. She is driven into the wilderness of the gentiles for 3 1/2 times. The 3 1/2 t's is a time with a beginning and an end. She stays in the wilderness of the gentiles until the end of the time period.

At the end of that time period she MUST return to Jerusalem/Israel, since it is God's declaration.

The time, 3 1/2t's, cannot be years because that would have Jerusalem restored in 73 ad. So it can ONLY be the time period from 70 ad until 1967.

2. Rev 11, The 2W's are showing Israel during the same time period. The restoration is shown by the being in sack cloth in mourning outside the city, then by witnessing in the city.

It is the same time period as the woman, 3 1/2 t's.

There is no scripture dealing with Hitler and the mass murder of 6 million Jews either.

Well, yes, Hitler's part, and Romans part (RCC), is all part of the ToG's. But the reference to the extermination/genocide of the natural branches being ended is implied, but not specific, except for the restoration of Rome (the dragon/beast coming out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet).

Some point to the Crusades which began in 1071 AD. Not sure I buy into that. I think it is still future, but that is one of the few, if not only, passage left to fulfill.

The crusades were an effort to end the ToG's and restore Jerusalem, allowing for the return of Jesus.

Notice the years of the crusades, approaching the year 1260. As they studied the 2W's they saw the number until the 2W's were to be returning to Jerusalem. If they calculated the days unto years, they supposed that the return of Jesus was approaching. But the 1260 days were not years as shown by history. It would be another 1000 years before Israel would be restored to Jerusalem. This shows that the time could not be calculated using the years of men.

I reject this theory. I don't see Jesus "coming for the kingdom" as we are in the kingdom now.

Yes, we are in the kingdom now.

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, Has Jesus coming for those who are His at the #2 resurrection.

Jesus did not come for the kingdom in 70 ad. Because after that, it is the end where death is destroyed. Then the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, The Jesus submits to the Father so He is the All in All.

But you say no, everybody trickles up a little at a time, and those who die after 70 ad are not resurrected, except for the unjust.

The preconceived time line of trying to end everything by 70 ad is still clouding your vision.

There is no visible kingdom age on planet earth. However, there is a spiritual kingdom age on earth and we are in that age now.

And what happens at the end of that time?

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Eternity happens once we physically die. This is when we enter the spiritual realm where the saints who went ahead are.

yes

Because the physical city "Babylon" which was Jerusalem was destroyed earlier in Revelation. It could be today's Jerusalem in Rev 20. I'm open to that.

Brother, the woman is Israel (Rev 17) in the wilderness of the gentiles after 70 ad, carried away to Rome which is the Babylon of that day. The city is Rome.

70 ad Jerusalem is shown falling at the 6/7th seal. The Jerusalem that falls at the 7th trumpet is the present one.

Jesus is finished with material Jerusalem.

Not quite, when the ToG's end, Jerusalem is restored. I don't believe that He will rule from the material Jerusalem, or that a temple there has any relation to the prophetic time line, but there seems to be enough scriptural evidence to consider the restoration, noting that it has already happened.

God broke the covenant with sinful Israel when He destroyed her.

Israel of the natural branches broke the covenant, not God. God withdrew His protection over her.

The Church doesn't replace Israel because the true Israel was first the believing, accepting Israel. We Gentile believers were grafted in with them. The Church began as Jewish, remember?

I do remember. But are the natural branches cut off forever? Or can they be grafted back in if they become believers? If they can be grafted back in, then the fact that Israel is restored, shows that it is possible.

Some say that Israel must all believe first and then return to restore Jerusalem, but it seems that Israel is restored to Jerusalem first, already, and then is time of the conversions. (I don't see Israel as a nation accepting Jesus, but I believe that are a number of them will, have already.)

 

[Endoscopy]

5

1. Rev 12, The woman is Israel. She is driven into the wilderness of the gentiles for 3 1/2 times. The 3 1/2 t's is a time with a beginning and an end. She stays in the wilderness of the gentiles until the end of the time period.

At the end of that time period she MUST return to Jerusalem/Israel, since it is God's declaration.

The time, 3 1/2t's, cannot be years because that would have Jerusalem restored in 73 ad. So it can ONLY be the time period from 70 ad until 1967.

2. Rev 11, The 2W's are showing Israel during the same time period. The restoration is shown by the being in sack cloth in mourning outside the city, then by witnessing in the city.

It is the same time period as the woman, 3 1/2 t's.




Well, yes, Hitler's part, and Romans part (RCC), is all part of the ToG's. But the reference to the extermination/genocide of the natural branches being ended is implied, but not specific, except for the restoration of Rome (the dragon/beast coming out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet).




The crusades were an effort to end the ToG's and restore Jerusalem, allowing for the return of Jesus.

Notice the years of the crusades, approaching the year 1260. As they studied the 2W's they saw the number until the 2W's were to be returning to Jerusalem. If they calculated the days unto years, they supposed that the return of Jesus was approaching. But the 1260 days were not years as shown by history. It would be another 1000 years before Israel would be restored to Jerusalem. This shows that the time could not be calculated using the years of men.




Yes, we are in the kingdom now.

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, Has Jesus coming for those who are His at the #2 resurrection.

Jesus did not come for the kingdom in 70 ad. Because after that, it is the end where death is destroyed. Then the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, The Jesus submits to the Father so He is the All in All.

But you say no, everybody trickles up a little at a time, and those who die after 70 ad are not resurrected, except for the unjust.

The preconceived time line of trying to end everything by 70 ad is still clouding your vision.




And what happens at the end of that time?

He ignores complete Bible prophecy and cherry picks what aligns with his beliefs ignoring clear prophecies to the contrary. For example:

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Isaiah 24 AMPC
21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

 

[garee]

1. Rev 12, The woman is Israel. She is driven into the wilderness of the gentiles for 3 1/2 times. The 3 1/2 t's is a time with a beginning and an end. She stays in the wilderness of the gentiles until the end of the time period.

At the end of that time period she MUST return to Jerusalem/Israel, since it is God's declaration.

Which Israel, the born again as a inward Jew ?

The woman in Revelation according to that signified language(Revelation) is used in parables. She is the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the church.

God is no respecter of persons He purifies the heart a of a Jew and Gentile by the same work of faith according to His three day labor of Love.

It has nothing to do with the outward flesh of a Jew. Never did.We walk by faith the unseen eternal .
​

 

[justpassinthrough]

These are the things that occur at His coming.


If you disagree with one of these three things, and believe one of these three things will not happen at His coming, then please say which one you disagree with and why and the scripture that validates your belief.

Point Number 1:

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at His coming, before the rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16


Point Number 2:

• The rapture takes place, just a moment after the resurrection, in which all His people will be gathered together to be with Him, in the air. The resurrection/rapture is one event, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Point Number 3:

The same coming of the Lord, by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, also destroys the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord to gather together His people unto Himself; the resurrection/rapture is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.



JLB

 

[Endoscopy]

These are the things that occur at His coming.


If you disagree with one of these three things, and believe one of these three things will not happen at His coming, then please say which one you disagree with and why and the scripture that validates your belief.

Point Number 1:

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at His coming, before the rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16


Point Number 2:

• The rapture takes place, just a moment after the resurrection, in which all His people will be gathered together to be with Him, in the air. The resurrection/rapture is one event, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Point Number 3:

The same coming of the Lord, by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, also destroys the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord to gather together His people unto Himself; the resurrection/rapture is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.



JLB

I totally agree. What gets murky is the rest of the eschatologyical views.

 

[Skylar]

Do you think that studying eschatology is a gift?

 

[garee]

Do you think that studying eschatology is a gift?

I would think it is a work that God our teacher the Holy Spirit works in us. The ability to work it out is a gift as he works in us with us (imputed righteousness). It is not a salvation issue there are many different ideas even inside of the few accredited end time heresies or opinions men have

He will come on the last day like a thief in the night, the same day of the second resurrection when both those asleep and those reigning with Christ having the Spirit of Christ in them and judgment day to the world that knew Him not all in the twinkling of the eye .

No literal thousand years. The word thousand signified represents a unknown in that parable found in Revelation 20


John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

Raise up at the last day. Judge him in the last day. Again one work of the faith of God all in the twinkling of the eye

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

No, now you are placing 70 AD after the thousand year reign.

Brother PW,

We are at the end of the mill now. The Jerusalem that is surrounded is the present one.

After this one falls, there will be the judgment of Rev 20. This is also a wheat/chaff judgment, a sheep/goat judgment.

The fire from heaven is on it's way now, it will be here soon, when Jerusalem falls.

The fire coming down I believe is future.

Just how far in the future do you think that it is? The Roman iron beast dragon nation is already out of the abyss (1929), and the 6th trumpet has already blown.

The wheat/chaff was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. John the Baptist teaches this in Mt 3 when he tells the Pharisees what will become of them.

You are right, but the wheat/chaff is not exclusive to that time. The wheat and chaff are, and will continue to be judged.

The stone from Dan is was Christ/Christianity. It smashed pagan Jerusalem in 70 AD then filled Rome in 300s AD when Christianity became the official religion of Rome. Keep in mind back then, everyone referred to Rome as "the habitable earth" like nothing outside the Roman Empire mattered and in fact the Bible does not mention any nation outside of the statue nations.

Well, The iron nation did not end there. It continues to 1967. The stone is not the establishment of the kingdom, it is Jesus coming for the completed kingdom at the #2 resurrection.

The kingdom began before the legs divided, just after the iron period begins, a few inches after the brass. The iron is shown to be a period much longer than 130 years, counting from the invasion of Rome until 70 ad approx.

Not so good buddy. The wicked dead only rise at that time.

The #1 resurrection is Always Jesus the first fruits.

The #2 resurrection is Always Jesus coming for the kingdom.

The definition doesn't change in Rev 20.

The passage is clear, the rest of the dead rise then.

The Rev 20:11-20 judgment includes both just and unjust, the idea that it is only for the unjust comes from pre-trib wanting to make their theory fit.

The "rapture" was a 70 AD event.

Jesus came and destroyed Jerusalem, but there was no resur/rapt, or there would have been no Christians left on earth.

Living saints get to heaven immediately upon death with their fully glorified bodies as a reward.

Why do they wear robes then to cover themselves, if they are perfect.

It is appointed for all men to die. No one gets a free pass from physical death, except the two mentioned.

........

Yes, the eternal state is the afterlife. It exists now and will continue forever and we get to go there upon death.

Where is the description of the afterlife given? You have applied all the scriptures that describe it to apply to 70 ad.

 

[abcdef]

Which Israel, the born again as a inward Jew ?

The woman in Revelation according to that signified language(Revelation) is used in parables. She is the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the church.​

Brother garee,

There are 2 women in the Rev. The woman in ch 12 and the woman in ch 17.

The woman in ch 12 is the faithful believing Israel/kingdom natural branches, and the woman in ch 17 is Israel natural branches unbelieving aligned with Rome.

God is no respecter of persons He purifies the heart a of a Jew and Gentile by the same work of faith according to His three day labor of Love.

Yes, but the gifts and calling of God are without repentance Rom 11:29.

It has nothing to do with the outward flesh of a Jew. Never did.We walk by faith the unseen eternal .
[/FONT][/COLOR]

So then, Jesus didn't have to be a descendant of Jacob? If the flesh didn't matter, He could have been Egyptian, or a Syrian?

 

[abcdef]

These are the things that occur at His coming.


If you disagree with one of these three things, and believe one of these three things will not happen at His coming, then please say which one you disagree with and why and the scripture that validates your belief.

Point Number 1:

• The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at His coming, before the rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16


Point Number 2:

• The rapture takes place, just a moment after the resurrection, in which all His people will be gathered together to be with Him, in the air. The resurrection/rapture is one event, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Point Number 3:

The same coming of the Lord, by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, also destroys the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1
• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord to gather together His people unto Himself; the resurrection/rapture is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.



JLB

Brother just',

I agree with this.

It's the details that are debatable.

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Exactly when does this event happen in relation to the trib period? beginning? middle? or end? The mill period? beginning or end?

 

[abcdef]

5
He ignores complete Bible prophecy and cherry picks what aligns with his beliefs ignoring clear prophecies to the contrary. For example:

Brother Endoscopy,

Maybe you missed post #9460, where I briefly explained these verses and their context.



Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Please explain briefly exactly when this event takes place in relation to the trib period. pre, mid, or post trib. and why, thanks.



Isaiah 24 AMPC
21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

----

I answered this before with no response to the scriptures that I offered for consideration.​

Heb 12:18-24, 22-23, shows that the Jerusalem is not a material place, but in heaven with Mt Sion.

Heb 9:1, Shows that the new covenant does not involve an earthly sanctuary and ordinances.

 

[abcdef]

I would think it is a work that God our teacher the Holy Spirit works in us. The ability to work it out is a gift as he works in us with us (imputed righteousness). It is not a salvation issue there are many different ideas even inside of the few accredited end time heresies or opinions men have

He will come on the last day like a thief in the night, the same day of the second resurrection when both those asleep and those reigning with Christ having the Spirit of Christ in them and judgment day to the world that knew Him not all in the twinkling of the eye .

No literal thousand years. The word thousand signified represents a unknown in that parable found in Revelation 20


John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day


John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

Raise up at the last day. Judge him in the last day. Again one work of the faith of God all in the twinkling of the eye

Brother garee,

Isn't the "last day", the last day of the mill? when the fire strikes? Followed by the judgment? Rev 20?

 

[Endoscopy]

Do you think that studying eschatology is a gift?

The problem with resolving eschatology is it is written mostly in symbolic language. Daniel plainly states it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way. This has lead theologians over the centuries to come up with 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology. All are flawed since they contradict each other. Anyone claiming they know the truth is not living in the reality of it being closed to understand until the end. There have been and still are those proclaiming they have been given the truth but every one in the past has been proven wrong. Currently on this board is another one and when this month ends his assertions will most likely be proven wrong. He ignores the fact that Satan and his fallen angels are beautiful great decievers.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endoscopy,

Maybe you missed post #9460, where I briefly explained these verses and their context.



Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Please explain briefly exactly when this event takes place in relation to the trib period. pre, mid, or post trib. and why, thanks.



Isaiah 24 AMPC
21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

----

I answered this before with no response to the scriptures that I offered for consideration.​

Heb 12:18-24, 22-23, shows that the Jerusalem is not a material place, but in heaven with Mt Sion.

Heb 9:1, Shows that the new covenant does not involve an earthly sanctuary and ordinances.

​I have heard this flawed theology since I was in high school. Then and since I found it conveniently ignores the full scripture on eschatology. You conviently ignore that that new Jerusalem comes down on top of the existing Jerusalem. Thus being visibly here in real life. There on Mt. Zion will Jesus physically rule earth. I quoted these scriptures and you try to explain you have special revelation that contradicts these scriptures. I stand on what Jesus said not you. He proclaims that the whole earth will visibly see him return not some sprit world event.