Do We Have To Keep The Law?

[Ahwatukee]

If the 10 commandments were "Gods Law" then they would never be described as the Ministration of Death and Condemnation by Paul.

Have you never read the scripture which says: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law."

The law is ammunition for the powers of darkness. When Jesus fulfilled the law satisfying it completely, he took away their ammo.

It's not that there was anything wrong with the law, for it is holy and righteous. The problem lies with mankind. Because of the sinful nature, the law kills us because we can't keep it and then condemns us. As I provided previously, scripture refers to commandments 6 and 7 as being the law. Not to mention the fact that Moses received from God on Mt. Sinai the ten commandments, which are apart of the law.

 

[Ralph-]

Do you still sin?

The correct question is, "Do you still 'practice' sin?"


"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil... 9No one who is born of God practices sin"-1 John 3:7-9


The use of the word translated as 'practice' means to spend time in and continue in:

Abide, Abode:"to do, make," is used of spending a time or tarrying, in a place, Act 15:33; 20:3; in 2Cr 11:25 it is rendered "I have been (a night and a day);" a preferable translation is "I have spent," as in Jam 4:13, "spend a year" (RV). So in Mat 20:12. Cp., the English idiom "did one hour;" in Rev 13:5 "continue" is perhaps the best rendering.
See DO.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4160&t=KJV



Those who live in and practice their old lives in unrighteousness and who are not changing and growing up in the Lord are not born again. They belong to the devil. They will not inherit the kingdom of God:


"do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."-1 Corinthians 6:9-10


'Do not be deceived.'

 

[Ralph-]

Yeah, it's a well worn road.

Jesus calls it the broad road to destruction and many enter through it.


Paul warned us: "Do not be deceived".

 

[Grandpa]

Have you never read the scripture which says: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law."

The law is ammunition for the powers of darkness. When Jesus fulfilled the law satisfying it completely, he took away their ammo.

It's not that there was anything wrong with the law, for it is holy and righteous. The problem lies with mankind. Because of the sinful nature, the law kills us because we can't keep it and then condemns us. As I provided previously, scripture refers to commandments 6 and 7 as being the law. Not to mention the fact that Moses received from God on Mt. Sinai the ten commandments, which are apart of the law.

Yes. I completely agree with you on this.

Its just a trick of words that the legalists and judaizers use.

They call the 10 Commandments "Gods Law" and try to twist peoples understanding to think that this Death and Condemnation is written on our hearts when we come to Christ.

But it is pretty easy to show that Death and Condemnation is NOT written on our hearts when we come to Christ.

Jeremiah 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Is the 10 commandments here Gods Law???

Nope, can't be. Otherwise we have a MAJOR contradiction of scripture.

How can the ministration of Death and Condemnation be place in the heart of a person in whom is NO Condemnation??

Can't happen.


But what can happen is that fruit can be produced in us, when we abide in Christ by faith, that is the fulfillment of this ministration of death and condemnation.

So that we establish the law by our faith in Christ and NOT by our work and understanding of what we think the 10 commandments say. Those who try to follow the 10 commandments in their own understanding are following the same error as ancient Israel before them.

They try to attain the righteousness of the 10 commandments by their work at them. But that is not how righteousness is attained. Righteousness is a gift from Christ.

We don't use the tool of condemnation to measure someones righteousness. That tool is only used to bring someone to Christ so they can be given His Righteousness. And then we are equal. Beggars who have been given a kingdom....

Thank you, Jesus.


I can go on and on... lol​

 

[Ralph-]

I'll ask once more: give one clear scripture that states a born again believer can lose their salvation.

I showed it to you in the example of the Galatians using the plain words Paul wrote but you are apparently choosing to close your eyes to them. I can't help you, budman. I can't give you eyes to see and ears to hear. And I can't make you use them if you do have them.


It amazes me to this day how people can look right at the plain words of scripture and not see what is plainly written. It's utterly amazing to me. 'Sanctified' doesn't really mean sanctified. 'Believe' doesn't really mean believe, and on and on... It's pathetic. But I know this is just the way it is with fallen man.

 

[Ralph-]

We don't use the tool of condemnation to measure someones righteousness. ​

Let's see what James says about the law being used to measure someone's righteousness and how what he says measures up to what you say:


"8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[SUP]a[/SUP] you are doing right."-James 2:8


James is being pretty clear here. He's plainly saying that the written law (Leviticus 19:18 in this case) is the measure of doing right. But you say we don't use the law to measure that. ​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Condemnation is a horrible word to use when talking about the things of GOD IMO because it's an ambiguous term. It can mean reproof/disapproval or a guilty verdict. Huge difference. There is no condemnation in Christ (guilty verdict; Romans 8:1), but there is reproof/disapproval for wrong behavior. Due to this ambiguity people can draw wrong conclusions.

 

[Studyman]

God gave the law to Israel through Moses. But before the law was introduced, Abraham was credited with righteousness and said that through him all nations would be blessed being credited with righteousness having the same faith as Abraham. Consider the following:

The Bible says Abraham had God's Laws as well.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This was the same God, YES?

"All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The one who does these things will live by them.”

God gave a Priesthood to the Levites through Moses, YES? And one of the duties of the Priesthood was to perform various sacrificial "Works" for the atonement of sins. We know Abraham was justified "Apart" from these Laws of justification that God gave Moses 430 years after Abraham. (See Galatians) Levi wasn't even born yet. But it is also written that Abraham was blessed "BECAUSE" he obeyed GOD'S Commandments.

"

What I mean is this: The Law that came four hundred thirty years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise.
For if the inheritance depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise."

Absolutely,

Heb. 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Now, read the above carefully to what it is saying and don't just gloss over it. It is very clear that believers are credited with the same righteousness as Abraham by having the same faith and not by observing the law. Regarding the law, Paul then goes on to say the following:

Well that is in direct opposition to what God said about Abraham.

"Because that Abraham obeyed my (God's) voice, and kept my (God's) charge, my (God's) commandments, my (God's) statutes, and my (God's) laws.

We know He didn't have the Levitical Priesthood because Paul says so. But he most certainly had God's Laws.

"

Why then was the Law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred."

Transgressions of what? God's Laws, YES? God's Commandments, YES? Are these not what God "ADDED" the Levitical Priesthood too? Surely you are not going to join the religion that claims God didn't give His Laws to anyone before Moses. What is Paul talking about here?

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What other "works" were given through Moses for the atonement of sin? Was "Love your neighbor" a Law that was given by God to Moses for the atonement of sin? I think not. But the Levitical Priesthood, given specifically to the Levites, did in fact contain certain sacrificial "works of the Law" for the atonement of the sins of the People "Until the Seed should come".

"

Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed.So the Law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

Absolutely.

The Word which became Flesh promised us this in Jer. 31.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I (God) will put my (God's) law in their inward parts, and write it (God's Law) in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I(God) will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jesus came as He said, He is the High Priest and has replaced the Levitical Priesthood which foreshadowed His Blood shed for the atonement of sins. (Heb. 7-10)

We are no longer under the Levitical Priesthood "works" for the remission of sins. We are justified by the Blood of Jesus, not the "works" of the Old Priesthood Laws. Believing this is called "FAITH".

The law was only meant to last until the promised seed (Christ) had come. Now that He has come, we are no longer under the law.

Yes, we are no longer under the old Priesthood for the atonement of sins, rather, were are justified by FAITH, apart from that Law.


Remember, Paul was writing to the Galatians here who were being "Bewitched" by the religious Jews.

The preaching Jews, Pharisees, who didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, had a problem with this teaching. They were still pushing the "works of the Law" for atonement given through Moses 430 years after Abraham. The Jews weren't trying to get the Galatians "Love their neighbor, or "to Love God" for justification, they were pushing the old method of atonement for sins for justification. Without which they would have no job.

These sacrifices were supposed to lead folks to the death and resurrection of the Christ. The very reason for this "law" was to prepare people for His appearing. The Priests had corrupted God's instructions though, as Jesus, Jeremiah, Isaiah and Paul clearly pointed out. For this reason people lost sight of what the sacrificial "Works of the Law" were all about.

It is also good to remember that Zechariahs (Luke 1) didn't "teach for doctrines the commandments of men", rather, like Abraham, he is said to have followed God's Laws. As a result He knew Jesus when He came, just as Abraham was Glad to see the Word which became Flesh when He came to him. This Law Paul was speaking to truly did lead Zechariahs to Jesus and although it isn't written, I'll bet he never killed another turtle dove once Jesus began His Priesthood.

 

[Studyman]

I am on sabbatical from the ones who simply say whatever they decide is right, without consulting God or having had it confirmed by the HOly Spirit. It really is like pulling teeth att times. God bless you for your endurance and patience. you are an edifier....j

Thanks JJ, I think it's all part of the journey, the race. But He knows I have my moments as well. I do hope for His Mercy.

 

[Grandpa]

Let's see what James says about the law being used to measure someone's righteousness and how what he says measures up to what you say:


"8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[SUP]a[/SUP] you are doing right."-James 2:8


James is being pretty clear here. He's plainly saying that the written law (Leviticus 19:18 in this case) is the measure of doing right. But you say we don't use the law to measure that. ​

Yes. Because you twist scripture. Its ok. We're used to it.

Galatians 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

 

[Ralph-]

Galatians 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

How does this make it so James is not using the law to 'measure' righteousness?


Everybody knows the law can't make you righteous. That's the baby milk of the gospel.

What few people know is the law is a measure of righteousness it can't make you have.

 

[Grandpa]

How does this make it so James is not using the law to 'measure' righteousness?


Everybody knows the law can't make you righteous. That's the baby milk of the gospel.

What few people know is the law is a measure of righteousness it can't make you have.

If the law was a measure of Righteousness then measuring up to the law would make a person righteous.

Do you not even understand what you say?

Then you say everyone knows the law can't make you righteous...

Well its one or the other. Does your obedience to the law make you righteous or not?

 

[beta]

Do you still sin?

are you one of those who believes in INSTANT perfection ? the Bible doesn't ! we are to 'learn obedience...it takes time. But there are those who never ever started and have no intention of learning.

 

[Ralph-]

If the law was a measure of Righteousness then measuring up to the law would make a person righteous.

That is what God told the Israelites:


“So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25“It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us."-Deuteronomy 6:24-25


That is why Jesus' obedience to the law is the righteousness that then gets reckoned to our account. He showed himself to be the perfect Son of God by his obedience under the law. That declaration of righteousness gets applied to us when we trust in the work of Christ.

Then you say everyone knows the law can't make you righteous...

....because no one can keep it.

Well its one or the other. Does your obedience to the law make you righteous or not?

No, because I can't keep it perfectly like Jesus did. That's why I need the righteousness of the one who did keep the law and was declared righteous applied to me. Which in turn sets me free to now grow up into the standard of righteousness revealed in the law.



All you have to remember, Gramps, is the law is the measure of righteousness used by God to show we aren't righteous. That alone tells us the law is indeed a measure of righteousness. A measure of righteousness that when we stand next to it shows that we don't measure up and fall woefully short from.

 

[justpassinthrough]

What does the New Testament say about it?

If we are under the Law, we are not led by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:18)

Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4)

No one is justified by the works of the Law (Galatians 2:16)

It has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15)

The Law is not for the Righteous. (1 Timothy 1:8, Galatians 2:21, Romans 3:20)

We can't keep it (James 2:10)

Not even the Jews could (Galatians 6:13)

The Law and faith do not mix (Romans 3:27-28)

If we rely on observing the Law we place ourselves under a curse (Galatians 3:10-11)

The Law is a curse that Jesus redeemed us from (Galatians 3:13)

If we continue in the Law we are fools (Galatians 3:2-3)

We are to live by faith, which the Law is not based on (Galatians 3:11-12)

The Law is lifeless (Galatians 3:21)

The Law only makes us prisoners (Galatians 3:23-25)

We become alienated from Christ (Galatians 5:4)

The Law is weak and makes nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:18-19)

It can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:4)

Paul said he himself was not under the Law (1 Corinthians 9:20)

We have been released from the Law (Romans 7:6)

The Law has been canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14)

We are dead to the Law (Romans 7:4)

It is obsolete, outdated, and will disappear (Hebrews 8:13)

We have been justified apart from the Law (Romans 3:21-22, 27-28)

We are under grace, not the Law (Romans 6:14)


Clear enough?

If you mean the law of Moses, then yes I agree.

If you mean the 10 Commandments then no.


[FONT=&quot]3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6
[/FONT]

JPT

 

[Grandpa]

That is what God told the Israelites:


“So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25“It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us."-Deuteronomy 6:24-25


That is why Jesus' obedience to the law is the righteousness that then gets reckoned to our account. He showed himself to be the perfect Son of God by his obedience under the law. That declaration of righteousness gets applied to us when we trust in the work of Christ.





....because no one can keep it.




No, because I can't keep it perfectly like Jesus did. That's why I need the righteousness of the one who did keep the law and was declared righteous applied to me. Which in turn sets me free to now grow up into the standard of righteousness revealed in the law.



All you have to remember, Gramps, is the law is the measure of righteousness used by God to show we aren't righteous. That alone tells us the law is indeed a measure of righteousness. A measure of righteousness that when we stand next to it shows that we don't measure up and fall woefully short from.

So the law is a tool of righteousness in which everyone is condemned and no one lives up to.

In other words, the ministration of death and condemnation.

Like I said to begin with, we don't use the tool of condemnation to measure anothers Righteousness.

It just wouldn't make sense. It would make us hypocrites.


I don't think God uses the law as a measure of Righteousness for those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, either.

Galatians 5:5

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


But you have shown that ancient Israel thought they would be righteous by their obedience to the law. I haven't ever tried to contend otherwise.​

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5-8, " But the goal* of the commandment is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. And we know that the Law is good if one uses it legitimately.”

(goal)is word #G5056 –télos; Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

1 John 4:20, “"If someone says, "I love Yah," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love Yah whom he has not seen."

1 John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 13:8-10, "Owe no one any matter except to love one another, for he who loves another has filled the Torah. For this, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet, and if there is any other (#G2087 ) command, it is summed up ( #G346 ) up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no evil to a neighbor. Therefore, love is completion of the Torah."

“any” is word #G2087 – heteros; 1) the other, another, other, 1 to number,1a1) to number as opposed to some former person or thing,1a2) the other of two,1b) to quality,1b1) another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different

“summed up” is word #G346 – anakephalaioó: to sum up, gather up, Original Word: ἀνακεφαλαιόω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: anakephalaioó, Phonetic Spelling: (an-ak-ef-al-ah'-ee-om-ahee), Short Definition: I sum up, summarize, recapitulate, gather up in one, Definition: I sum up, summarize, recapitulate, gather up in one [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Budman]

are you one of those who believes in INSTANT perfection ? the Bible doesn't ! we are to 'learn obedience...it takes time. But there are those who never ever started and have no intention of learning.

Well, your profile says you're 88 years old.

How much time do you think you have left to learn perfect, sinless obedience?

 

[Budman]

The correct question is, "Do you still 'practice' sin?"

Back to that again, huh Ralph?

Do you sin every day? Will you continue to sin every day?

Sounds like you "abide" in it to me.

 

[Budman]

I showed it to you in the example of the Galatians using the plain words Paul wrote but you are apparently choosing to close your eyes to them. I can't help you, budman. I can't give you eyes to see and ears to hear. And I can't make you use them if you do have them.


It amazes me to this day how people can look right at the plain words of scripture and not see what is plainly written. It's utterly amazing to me. 'Sanctified' doesn't really mean sanctified. 'Believe' doesn't really mean believe, and on and on... It's pathetic. But I know this is just the way it is with fallen man.

All you proved Ralph, is you can't read.

Those whom Paul was speaking of, were Jews who came close to accepting Christ, but instead fell back into the Law. They "tasted", but instead fell from grace. Grace found only in Jesus.

Not born again believers.

Epic fail for you.