New Covenant and Old Covenant

[Shamah]

There is something to be said to Oral tradition.

God made more than One Covenant. If you want to deny it, your choice.

Well according to the WORD the Covenant made with Abraham, continued with, Issac, Jacob, Israyl and finally the Messiah is the same one continued:

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Gentiles can be a part of Israyl right?


Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

This covenant spoke of above Psalms 105:6-10,

“...He has remembered His covenant forever,

(how long? forever. can man break it? Yes. Can YHWH break it? No and we will prove this later)

The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations,

The covenant He made with Aḇraham,

(OK so we see it is this is the covenant made with Abraham)

And His oath to Yitsḥaq,

(swore it to Issac)

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law,

(made it a Law for Jacob)

To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Can you look at Psalm 105 and tell me it is not one covenant continued? Please give me you breakdown and assessment, I respect but I have to say I do not expect you to break this passagedpwn becasue it disproves what you are saying.

 

[Ariel82]

That's what you don't get.

The covenant made with Abraham...is the promise of the New covenant ratified by the shed blood of Christ.

It's NOT THE SAME COVENANT MADE AT SINAI.

 

[graceNpeace]

That's what you don't get.

The covenant made with Abraham...is the promise of the New covenant ratified by the shed blood of Christ.

It's NOT THE SAME COVENANT MADE AT SINAI.

Spot on!
............

 

[Shamah]

That's what you don't get.

The covenant made with Abraham...is the promise of the New covenant ratified by the shed blood of Christ.

It's NOT THE SAME COVENANT MADE AT SINAI.

but you didn't breakdown Psalm 105 you just said something is wrong with my view that I never said...

 

[Ariel82]

but you didn't breakdown Psalm 105 you just said something is wrong with my view that I never said...

I said that there is more than one covenant...you came back to imply that you disagreed.

 

[Ariel82]

Psalm 105 makes no mention of the covenant given at Mount Sinai...so I don't see why it would not refer to the covenant made with Abraham and the Laws spoken of are the same Jesus reveals in the New testament and the prophets spoke to the world throughout the ages.

 

[Shamah]

Psalm 105 makes no mention of the covenant given at Mount Sinai...so I don't see why it would not refer to the covenant made with Abraham and the Laws spoken of are the same Jesus reveals in the New testament and the prophets spoke to the world throughout the ages.

When did I ever bring up Mt Sinai? You did both times...

SO are you saying the Covenant;

"The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

is the same covenant ratified in the blood of Yahshua/Jesus?

because this is what I believe

 

[Ariel82]

When did I ever bring up Mt Sinai? You did both times...

SO are you saying the Covenant;

"The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

is the same covenant ratified in the blood of Yahshua/Jesus?

because this is what I believe

The title of the thread is Old covenant (the one given at Mount Sinai) and New Covenant(the one promised to Abraham and ratified by Jesus)......

My question is do you believe the old and new covenant are the same with the same laws/precepts and promises?

Pretty sure I already stated that Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are part of the New covenant ratified in Christ

 

[Shamah]

The title of the thread is Old covenant (the one given at Mount Sinai) and New Covenant(the one promised to Abraham and ratified by Jesus)......

My question is do you believe the old and new covenant are the same with the same laws/precepts and promises?

Pretty sure I already stated that Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are part of the New covenant ratified in Christ

but I have never spoke that a levite priesthood remains. I continually say YHWH Instructions/Laws/Torah and COvenant are eternal...

As He says:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

Yep...still in denial.

You toss out the Levitical priesthood but cling to the rest of the Law of sin and death.

Never ttruly understanding the New covenant and how salvation is by Grace and Faith, not works.

 

[graceNpeace]

but I have never spoke that a levite priesthood remains. I continually say YHWH Instructions/Laws/Torah and COvenant are eternal...

You cannot chop up the Torah into bits and pieces as you see fit!
The Sinaitic covenant and the Torah which is its central part stand and fall as a unit!
If the Levitical priesthood (part of the Torah) has been abrogated then so has the rest of the Torah.

For someone who believes the way that you do the fact that you do not understand the essential mechanics of how covenants work is telling!

Neither the Siniatic covenant, nor the Torah that was its central constituent, can be eternal...
This covenant is temporary and limited.
It was made between God and the Israelites....and no-one else!
The Torah, as given to Moses, was UNKNOWN prior to the events on Mount Sinai - Gen 264-5 cannot be used to claim that Abraham, or any other patriarch, knew what was later revealed to Moses at Mount Sinai, and any attempt to do so would just be dishonest.
Furthermore, the demands of this covenant have been utterly fulfilled by Jesus Christ through the cross.
The Book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that the Sinaitic covenant is obsolete and the Torah along with it.
Paul makes it unambiguously clear that the Torah is NOT part of the New covenant either!
The Jerusalem council clearly indicates that the Torah is not binding on New covenant believers.

Your continual quoting of Matt 5:18 and Rev 21:1 just mean that your INTERPRETATION of these texts is wrong because YOUR INTERPRETATION so clearly contradicts multiple clearly articulated texts that state unambiguously that the Torah is no longer binding on New covenant believers....

 

[Ariel82]

Careful...he is going to say "Torah" means God's spoken word which includes all of the Old testament...not just the Laws given on Mount Sinai.

What I find disingenuous is the claim only the laws concerning the Levitical priesthood given on Mount Sinai are abolished.

Jesus clearly showed that it's not true. The law "an eye for an eye" has nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood and was given at Mount Sinai. It was abolished/ replaced with Jesus command to love your enemy,turn the other cheek, go the extra mile.

 

[Studyman]

Yep...still in denial.

You toss out the Levitical priesthood but cling to the rest of the Law of sin and death.

Never ttruly understanding the New covenant and how salvation is by Grace and Faith, not works.

I think you are once again mistaken. It was the Word which became Flesh that "tossed" out the Levitical Priesthood, not Shamah, and the Messiah replaced it with Himself. You can preach "Love the Lord with all your heart" is a law of sin and death if you are so inclined.

Shouldn't we let the Word which became Flesh describe His New Covenant? And if we find our religious tradition contradicts His Words, I think it more prudent to change our minds, instead of changing His Words.

 

[Ariel82]

Let's put it in everyday terms....

You buy two cars...one red,one blue.....you can use the same language for the two contracts...,still two different contracts.


Just because Jesus uses the same language doesn't mean the covenant at Sinai still applies.

Jesus gave laws at the Sermon on the mount...,if you want to try figuring that out.

 

[Studyman]

Careful...he is going to say "Torah" means God's spoken word which includes all of the Old testament...not just the Laws given on Mount Sinai.

What I find disingenuous is the claim only the laws concerning the Levitical priesthood given on Mount Sinai are abolished.

Jesus clearly showed that it's not true. The law "an eye for an eye" has nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood and was given at Mount Sinai. It was abolished/ replaced with Jesus command to love your enemy,turn the other cheek, go the extra mile.

Your ridicule is typical, but not wise in my opinion. Shamah has laid out in scriptures what the New Covenant is. Your ridicule is misplaced. Matt. 5 has everything to do with the teaching of the Pharisees of "old time".

Your unbelief doesn't make the Faith in God of Void.

 

[graceNpeace]

Careful...he is going to say "Torah" means God's spoken word which includes all of the Old testament...not just the Laws given on Mount Sinai.

What I find disingenuous is the claim only the laws concerning the Levitical priesthood given on Mount Sinai are abolished.

Jesus clearly showed that it's not true. The law "an eye for an eye" has nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood and was given at Mount Sinai. It was abolished/ replaced with Jesus command to love your enemy, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile.

Of course!
Unless, he builds a temple in his back yard and barbeques lambs and pigeons there and can find a convenient descendent of Levi to do the honours he definitely has a problem!
He also has no concept that the Sinaitic covenant, and the Torah which is its substance, stands and falls as a unit.

Of course his real problem is that he has no understanding of what covenants are and how they work!

One of his angles is that the Torah is eternal, but a simple read of Genesis completely dispels that notion.
The Torah (as given to Moses) was unknown prior to Moses receiving it on Mount Sinai.
He keeps referring to Gen 26:4-5 as somehow been meaningful but all it refers to is the commands that we actually read God giving to Abram (later Abraham) from Genesis chapter 12 onwards, and not mythical statutes of law.

So, in fact, the Torah, was completely unknown, prior to Moses receiving it a Mount Sinai.
And, the Torah, in company with the Siniatic covenant of which it was the central part, was only ever given to the Israelites.
No amount of massaging will ever change this!

The Sinaitic covenant, along with the Torah which is its central component, was only ever limited and temporary...

For those who were Jews, Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteous demands of the Torah on the cross.
For those of us who were never Jews, Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteous demands for justice, apart from the Torah, occasioned by our sins on the cross.

Romans chapter 1-3 clearly articulates how Jews are guilty before the Law (Torah), as well as how Gentiles were guilty, apart from the Law (Torah).
The rest of Romans also clearly articulates how, now, under the New covenant, neither Jew nor Greek are subject to the demands of the Torah.....

 

[Studyman]

Let's put it in everyday terms....

You buy two cars...one red,one blue.....you can use the same language for the two contracts...,still two different contracts.


Just because Jesus uses the same language doesn't mean the covenant at Sinai still applies.

Jesus gave laws at the Sermon on the mount...,if you want to try figuring that out.

Jesus gave the same Laws in Matt. 5 as He gave in the Law and Prophets as I have shown you.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I (The Word which became Flesh) say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:


Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.(The Word which became Flesh)

The Word which became Flesh taught this though Moses, but the Levite Priests, the Pharisees did not.

The whole Bible agrees with this truth even if you do not.

 

[Ariel82]

Your ridicule is typical, but not wise in my opinion. Shamah has laid out in scriptures what the New Covenant is. Your ridicule is misplaced. Matt. 5 has everything to do with the teaching of the Pharisees of "old time".

Your unbelief doesn't make the Faith in God of Void.

I am not ridiculing Shamah. He is actually one of the folks I respect even though we disagree often.

Just trying to get him to understand the point being made (two covenants with different laws...Some very similar but still uniquely different)...whether he agrees or not isn't as important.

You, it will take divine intervention.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus gave the same Laws in Matt. 5 as He gave in the Law and Prophets as I have shown you.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I (The Word which became Flesh) say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:


Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.(The Word which became Flesh)

The Word which became Flesh taught this though Moses, but the Levite Priests, the Pharisees did not.

The whole Bible agrees with this truth even if you do not.

See that is where you have issues. The Levites taught it too. Some (not all) were hypocrites and didn't follow it.

You make the Levites into your bad guys...but guess what?

John the Baptist was a Levite.

What part about the fact God can use the same laws in. Both covenant?

Show me one law in the old covenant given at Sinai that we are suppose to follow, THAT JESUS DIDNT RETEACH and show the DEEPER SPIRITUAL MEANING behind?

Jesus gave the Laws of the New covenant. Some he reinforced, others HE CHANGED and ABOLISHED from the old covenant.

Old covenant laws no longer apply.only the Laws Jesus established remains for God's born again children.

 

[Studyman]

See that is where you have issues. The Levites taught it too. Some (not all) were hypocrites and didn't follow it.

You make the Levites into your bad guys...but guess what?

John the Baptist was a Levite.

So was John's Dad, Zechariahs.

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

You might note that both Zechariahs and John knew Jesus when He came, but the Pharisees or Sadducees didn't. Aren't you curious as to why?

Also your claim that I am trying to make the Levite Priests into bad guys is off base*****again. You see how the Word describes Zechariahs. Let's see how the Word describes these guys you claim I make out to be bad.

Matt. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Like Saul before he became Paul)

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

You make the Levites into your bad guys

I am not making the Pharisees out to be bad guys, Jesus is. And I believe Him.

What part about the fact God can use the same laws in. Both covenant?

Show me one law in the old covenant given at Sinai that we are suppose to follow, THAT JESUS DIDNT RETEACH and show the DEEPER SPIRITUAL MEANING behind?

Of course Jesus had to "Reteach" His Fathers instructions. Have you not read what "THEM OF OLD TIME" were preaching?

Why don't you take EVERY WORD Jesus said in His Life regarding the Pharisees and post them, then tell everybody "Studyman is making the Levite Priests out to be bad guys".

Then stand back and read it. Hopefully then maybe you will see just how foolish you sound making such a claim.

Jesus gave the Laws of the New covenant. Some he reinforced, others HE CHANGED and ABOLISHED from the old covenant.

Now all you have to do is listen to Jesus as He explains what was changed and why. It's in Jer. 31, and Heb. 7-10. All that is left is "Believing on Him" and His Words.

And when you get to the parts that directly contradict your religious doctrines and traditions, you will have to make a choice. Do you change your mind, or God's Words. I would advise changing your mind.

Old covenant laws no longer apply.only the Laws Jesus established remains for God's born again children.

And Jesus has already told you in Matt. 5 what Laws still apply. You need only to believe Him.