Death and Dying, part deux

[Ugly]

I care because it is what Scripture says.

You're right. Scripture does state to argue over non-essentials so it justifies finger pointing and petty debates and gender division in the church. Good call. I forgot about that.

 

[Magenta]

You're right. Scripture does state to argue over non-essentials so it justifies finger pointing and petty debates and gender division in the church. Good call. I forgot about that.

You've got a problem, and it is not me.
You do the very thing you constantly complain about others doing.

God's pronouncement upon His creation at every stage was "good",
until after woman was made, and then He saw that it was "very good."
Some men seem to have a problem with that fact being pointed out

I wonder what their problem is. ​

 

[UnderGrace]

And we're all paying the price for Their choices

Actually.....If a perfect person in a perfect place who had direct knowledge and fellowship with God decided to disobey God, none of us would have done better.


“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”
Romans 5:12

I've yet to understand why everyone is so focused on bla e shifting and then twisting it into a gender issue. Who gives a crap? They both screwed up. And we're all paying the price for Their choices. Anyone who complicates it further is just starting problems where there should be none.

 

[Magenta]

You're right. Scripture does state to argue over non-essentials so it justifies finger pointing and petty debates and gender division in the church. Good call. I forgot about that.

Instead of agreeing with Scripture, you tell a bunch of lies and pretend that is what I was doing. Shameful, Ugly, and very ugly.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

(KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That is saying that no matter what happens to you, "all things work together for good". IE: even evil, horrible things somehow turn out good. It's not true always.

(NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

That is saying that no matter what happens to you, God is working for the good of His people.

To me, the comfort of understanding it that way is that no matter what we are going through, we can be sure of this: God is working for the good of those who love Him.

I densely still don't see a major difference of thought and intent between those two translations...I do prefer the NIV. It more closely fits with my recollection of my own translation, which is NLT. I think it says...God causes everything to work together for good of those who love Him and are called...

Still have 11 chapters of commentary to go by the way. I keep getting sidetracked by something he says that grabs me and I stop to think about it...

 

[carl11]

You don't think it is part of the argument, but I do, and believe it is an unavoidable aspect of, and integral to, the issue. The Calvinist claim is that God ordains what man does; good or evil, makes no difference, because if it is ordained and decreed, it must come to pass. That means God will make it happen, not that God simply allows it to happen. However, it is God's will that all repent, yet the Calvinist will say all does not mean all, and only applies to the chosen elect, meaning them of course, and not the whole world, as in, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If you have not seen that, you have not been paying attention when Calvinists speak.

The Op has argued that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, then the whole world would be forgiven, as if repentance is not a necessary component of salvation, but he will bristle and bark if you point that out to him. Others will say God is weak if He wills something but does not bring it to pass, as if He were a bully that forces people to bend to His will of coming to the knowledge of truth and salvation. I can see a correlation between the bullies that hold this view, and the view itself! To say God is loving, just and merciful while claiming at the same time that salvation is not offered to all, and those to whom it is not offered have no way to be saved because it is not God's will for them, and that God is going to torture them forever after for refusing His non-existent offer to them, is a god of vain and vile imaginings, the monstrosity concocted within Calvinism, and promoted by people who call themselves Bible believing Christians.

You do understand that just because something was ordained or somthing set in order does not mean it will take place instantly there are steps and or events which have to happen first before something happens or before one gets saved.

You have mentioned twice from what I have read about God torturing people because they have “not believed” you do realize that virtually every mainstream church believes in this idea and so to make a statement in saying that they are the only ones that hold fast to this idea is not a very accurate statement.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay, it didn't work and I didn't find the quote where someone cited it as from, but I did only skim the commentary...

I have the whole sentence: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.”

But it doesn't give me the mans total thought and intent. I may think of some other way to find where the quote is from but I can't come up with anything right now...

 

[Depleted]

Well, that was rude. I was explaining Calvinism to you, because that is at the heart of the debate, but you are obviously not interested in what is truly involved.

Correction, you're creating your personal theory on Calvinism, which has no bearing on true Calvinism. AND what is rude is how much you do not ever actually listen to Calvinist, because, holy cow, you might learn what it means.

Still think lying is worse that rudeness though.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well would you look at that - the verse is in lynns signature line...

 

[Depleted]

I wasn't trying to be rude...I just saw that your answer to my post was to instruct me that God does not will, do, like or make men do evil. And since I never said He did, I couldn't see where reading the post would be worthwhile. But why were you trying to explain Calvinism to me??? What does Calvinism have to do with God working all things to our good...? I wasn't even aware that anyone thought the thread was about Calvinism...maybe I'm just dense...anyway, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just saying that from your first sentence, you seemed to me to be thinking I needed to understand that God does not will, do, cause, or like evil - and since I never stated that He does, I just stopped reading, thinking that it would not be profitable to read the rest. It's okay that you wanted to explain what Calvinism is to me - I just didn't know that's what you were doing, but instead thought that you thought I had said God causes men to do evil, which it would never cross my mind to think or say!

Calvinism is why they're here. Their "gospel" is "Calvinism bad." (Also why I closed down my thread. Get tired of them hijacking posts for their games.)

 

[Depleted]

It was not an attempt to explain Calvinism, but an attempt to show you that Calvinist thought promotes God as the author of evil. The author of this thread is a die-hard Calvinist, and so is the author of the previous thread. If I wanted to explain Calvinism to you, I would start with TULIP. A bunch of one liners? I am showing you specific sayings specifically related to your specific claim that you had never seen anyone say any such specific thing, to which you took great exception based on a faulty assumption you made.

This will come as a big surprise to you, apparently, but repeating a lie over and over again, never makes it the truth.

 

[Depleted]

Dear Stunned, please excuse my apparent contradiction, for I was not attempting to explain all of Calvinism to you, but just desiring to show you that which you claimed to have never seen before, which is very much a part of Calvinistic thought. I am sorry that doing so caused such a problem.

Want to explain brain surgery completely next? I think your understanding is equal to that task too, except your likely to explain knee surgery instead. And then of course, you'll call people rude for not understanding what knee surgery has to do with brain surgery.

 

[Depleted]

Hi cee! Haven't seen you in a while. Hope you're doing well!
Job does not show God permitting satan to bring evil to touch Job because satan has free will. It shows God giving permission to satan to touch Job (with strict limits given each time). That doesn't say that satan may bring any harms/evils/buffetings to Job simply because satan has the free will to do so. He had to have permission. But this does not mean that God caused satan to do evil or commit atrocities to the man. Permitting something and being the cause of something are not the same thing.

Amazing thing about Job was God directly asked Satan to consider Job. And he certainly went beyond just considering him. God is omniscient. He knew what would happen next.

 

[LightBright]

God's Word says that sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam). Not Eve.

Magenta you're cool cx anyway she's totally right men had headship so whem adamessed up he botched everything up because he had the authority over the wife blah blah blah so basically the fall was just a reversal of what God inteneded the order was supposed to be something like this :God, husband, wife, animals but instead it ended up like : animals (serpent), wife ( cuz adam listened to her) , the man (he wanted to be like God), then God ( like i said he wanted to be God). And this IS very important it shows us a very basic view of headship, that the man should lead his wife and that he should follow God and lead in righteousness this isn't unimportant or else it wouldn't be here it lets usbknow there is an order to marriage according to the will of God among other things

 

[Depleted]

Instead of agreeing with Scripture, you tell a bunch of lies and pretend that is what I was doing. Shameful, Ugly, and very ugly.

 

[LightBright]

You're right. Scripture does state to argue over non-essentials so it justifies finger pointing and petty debates and gender division in the church. Good call. I forgot about that.

Ans I don't think that was her intention she's just being biblical i get your reaction cuz that happens a lot today with the whole feminist thing and stuff but i don't think magenta is trying to say those things i think she's just trying to explain the bible is all and woman did make things very good because without women how were we gonna make babiessss plus shes represents the church in the God head without her that representation wouldn't be complete which is why biblical headship exist in the first place for order and an illustration please just maybe we can calm down and resolve the issue by simply thinking about things more before we make conclusions reading texts is sometimes vague since it's just words we have to be very careful please just think about what each of you is saying cx im sure you guys are totally wise but misunderstandings happen

 

[Magenta]

You have mentioned twice from what I have read about God torturing people because they have “not believed” you do realize that virtually every mainstream church believes in this idea and so to make a statement in saying that they are the only ones that hold fast to this idea is not a very accurate statement.

I did not say they were the only ones, so your statement is completely devoid of accuracy in that regard.

 

[Magenta]

Okay, it didn't work and I didn't find the quote where someone cited it as from, but I did only skim the commentary...

I have the whole sentence: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.”

But it doesn't give me the mans total thought and intent. I may think of some other way to find where the quote is from but I can't come up with anything right now...

Decree definition: Theology. one of the eternal purposes of God, by which events are foreordained. Foreordain means to predetermine, or predestine. I am not sure how anyone could interpret that any other way than to state that God authored evil, since in their view He determined it and predestined it, which is quite different from saying that God allows evil without being the author of it. If something is predestined, you cannot escape it. It makes people puppets, which fits in with their theological view that man has no choice in the matter. Let them call me a liar for saying so. It's not like they haven't multiple times already.

​

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, that was rude. I was explaining Calvinism to you, because that is at the heart of the debate, but you are obviously not interested in what is truly involved.

You explained your straw man of what Calvinism is. Brush up on it before twisting it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is the belief that God causes men to do evil



SovereignGrace #61

Men do wicked deeds due to them possessing wicked hearts. God doesn’t have to make them do it, it comes from them naturally, due to their possessing wicked hearts.

Please, do not speak for me EVER again.

I am sure glad you’re not my lawyer. I’d get hung for sure.