Death and Dying, part deux
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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I'm just going to drop it. I have no idea why you are acting this way with me. I'm not mad about it. I'm just not going to help perpetuate it. I will admit that maybe there is a difference in IQ and comprehension between the two of us so maybe I'm not getting something you think l I should be capable of getting because I truly am not intelligent enough to follow it. I'm sorry you felt I was being rude to you. It wasn't my intent. I'm just dropping the conversation so I don't any further unwittingly offend you.
I explained why I ignored it when I said I did not know your reply to me was an attempt to explain Calvinism. I read the first sentence and thought you were saying that I had said God wills and causes men to do evil! That is why I did not read the post, because I could not fathom how on earth you thought I had said that and I thought to read the rest of the post where (I thought) you would be expounding to me why I should stop saying God wills that men do evil to other men, when I'd never said it!
I went back and read the rest of the post but it is a lot of one liners taken from mens writings, which is not a good way to judge a mans beliefs, by just one sentence they have said, pulled out of an entire writing. By the series of one liners, it sounds hideously bad. But I am going to start by seeing if I can find where Calvin said the first quote you gave, so I can read it in total context. It will probably take me the rest of the night to find it, but I have read some portions of calvin that I agreed with so I want to see at least the entire paragraph that the quote was pulled from because I think it is not fair to the man otherwise.
I went back and read the rest of the post but it is a lot of one liners taken from mens writings, which is not a good way to judge a mans beliefs, by just one sentence they have said, pulled out of an entire writing. By the series of one liners, it sounds hideously bad. But I am going to start by seeing if I can find where Calvin said the first quote you gave, so I can read it in total context. It will probably take me the rest of the night to find it, but I have read some portions of calvin that I agreed with so I want to see at least the entire paragraph that the quote was pulled from because I think it is not fair to the man otherwise.
It was not an attempt to explain Calvinism, but an attempt to show you that Calvinist thought promotes God as the author of evil. The author of this thread is a die-hard Calvinist, and so is the author of the previous thread. If I wanted to explain Calvinism to you, I would start with TULIP. A bunch of one liners? I am showing you specific sayings specifically related to your specific claim that you had never seen anyone say any such specific thing, to which you took great exception based on a faulty assumption you made.
He permits evil because He permits free will. Short of having an asteroid fall on someone who wanted to do evil to you, He would have to put everyone into some sort of prison because He created evil when He created man. The existence of free will necessarily means evil exists. The truth is, and it's a sad one, if God stopped all evil He would have to wipe all man off the Earth. Because where would He stop? We could say well only the murderers, but what about the liars, what about the fornicators, what about the people who say mean things to each other and thus murder in their hearts? This would continually go on and on, until there was only person left - Himself. And maybe Enoch. 
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Well...I had not (and still haven't) seen anyone in here say that God causes men to do evil to other men. You have given me some quotes from men who don't come in here appearing to say it, but I still have not seen anyone in this thread say it. I can't go by you saying you have seen them say it in here. I can only go by what I hear a man say. I haven't seen it. But I have not read everything any man has said in here. So...still looking for where that quote from calvin comes. I've found that it is in his commentary on acts but still haven't found it yet to read the surrounding sentences, context and intent.
He permits evil because He permits free will. Short of having an asteroid fall on someone who wanted to do evil to you, He would have to put everyone into some sort of prison because He created evil when He created man. The existence of free will necessarily means evil exists. The truth is, and it's a sad one, if God stopped all evil He would have to wipe all man off the Earth. Because where would He stop? We could say well only the murderers, but what about the liars, what about the fornicators, what about the people who say mean things to each other and thus murder in their hearts? This would continually go on and on, until there was only person left - Himself. And maybe Enoch.
He permits evil because He permits free will. Short of having an asteroid fall on someone who wanted to do evil to you, He would have to put everyone into some sort of prison because He created evil when He created man. The existence of free will necessarily means evil exists. The truth is, and it's a sad one, if God stopped all evil He would have to wipe all man off the Earth. Because where would He stop? We could say well only the murders, but what about the liars, what about the fornicators, what about the people who say mean things to each other and thus murder in their hearts? This would continually go on and on, until the only person left on Earth - Himself. And maybe Enoch.
He permits evil because He permits free will. Short of having an asteroid fall on someone who wanted to do evil to you, He would have to put everyone into some sort of prison because He created evil when He created man. The existence of free will necessarily means evil exists. The truth is, and it's a sad one, if God stopped all evil He would have to wipe all man off the Earth. Because where would He stop? We could say well only the murderers, but what about the liars, what about the fornicators, what about the people who say mean things to each other and thus murder in their hearts? This would continually go on and on, until there was only person left - Himself. And maybe Enoch.
Job does not show God permitting satan to bring evil to touch Job because satan has free will. It shows God giving permission to satan to touch Job (with strict limits given each time). That doesn't say that satan may bring any harms/evils/buffetings to Job simply because satan has the free will to do so. He had to have permission. But this does not mean that God caused satan to do evil or commit atrocities to the man. Permitting something and being the cause of something are not the same thing.
I agree and hear you, Magenta! I am using that specific phrasing as nod to the Scripture here:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
And in case that Scripture was in someone's mind, I wanted to address that potential objection. However, I totally agree with you. God called His creation "good". And He called us, "very good".
I personally do feel we run into issues when we try to interpret the character of God through only an OT lens. Because Jesus explicitly says He came to reveal the Father which means the Jews didn't have the complete picture of Him. Sometimes God gives Himself attributes to relate with man, and to speak on his current level, not because they are the compete embodiment of Himself.
But we find as God gives us greater revelation of Himself, He speaks to us differently each time. Increasing the understanding of His goodness and His plan for all of man. It's a continual revelation that we can sometimes miss if we try to put God in a theology box. Anyways, sorry for my tangent.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
And in case that Scripture was in someone's mind, I wanted to address that potential objection. However, I totally agree with you. God called His creation "good". And He called us, "very good".
I personally do feel we run into issues when we try to interpret the character of God through only an OT lens. Because Jesus explicitly says He came to reveal the Father which means the Jews didn't have the complete picture of Him. Sometimes God gives Himself attributes to relate with man, and to speak on his current level, not because they are the compete embodiment of Himself.
But we find as God gives us greater revelation of Himself, He speaks to us differently each time. Increasing the understanding of His goodness and His plan for all of man. It's a continual revelation that we can sometimes miss if we try to put God in a theology box. Anyways, sorry for my tangent.
Let's see, Job stated that we receive good and evil at the hand of the LORD, yet in stating this, God declared he didn't sin with his lips. Job 2:9-10.
I'm not struggling with this reality, nor has it crossed my mind that God is "a monster" or "the author of evil" as anti-calvinists love to accuse those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace.
I'm standing here with Job and the balance of Scripture, that God allows both, even using secondary causes to accomplish this, and therefor we can state it as truth because it is truth.
Yet, at the same time in our finite mind we cannot explain it nor understand it, but still knowing this, trust Him completely. That is the true position of "Calvinists" but you all (those engaged in their insults and straw man accusations) can carry on with your ignorance and slander of these good brothers and sisters; we do not sin with our lips, either, in embracing and declaring these truths.
I'm not struggling with this reality, nor has it crossed my mind that God is "a monster" or "the author of evil" as anti-calvinists love to accuse those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace.
I'm standing here with Job and the balance of Scripture, that God allows both, even using secondary causes to accomplish this, and therefor we can state it as truth because it is truth.
Yet, at the same time in our finite mind we cannot explain it nor understand it, but still knowing this, trust Him completely. That is the true position of "Calvinists" but you all (those engaged in their insults and straw man accusations) can carry on with your ignorance and slander of these good brothers and sisters; we do not sin with our lips, either, in embracing and declaring these truths.
While it may be true that the unregenerated wo/man does not seek God, people do earnestly seek truth, and Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth, and the express image of the invisible God. God says those who seek Him will find Him, so it is a bit of a sticky wicket to say nobody really seeks Him, because we rely on the promises of God, and trust Him to keep His Word And, the fact of the matter is, God does reveal Himself to those who are seeking. There would be little point in encouraging others in that regard if He did not.
And, the fact of the matter is, God does reveal Himself to those who are seeking. There would be little point in encouraging others in that regard if He did not.- Status