Oh goody another OSAS thread!

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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Well... If there were a hard and fast definition, that people didn't add stuff to, then there would be no need to ask, for sure.

look you are a reasonable guy..at least so far haha (jking)
'
anything I wanted to learn about it, which I did, I researched and read literature by the teachers of this hg and looked up threads on this site to see what all went on

I honestly think it is best to do personal research because you are not going to get an unbiased answer here as both sides are in formation with Bible verses loaded

context screams one side and new covenant screams the other

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well... If there were a hard and fast definition, that people didn't add stuff to, then there would be no need to ask, for sure.
again, you hit the nail on the head, this is the issue.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
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UnderGrace

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UnderGrace

Guest
Well Charisma news is NAR publication, so I would not call it a highly reputable source ... just sayin. :)

Maybe what they have written is true but the two movements are in competition so to speak.


No, I am not.

We need another reformation but I don't think that's it.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Read this and you'll see that many, if most Christians are influenced by Hypergrace teaching.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/40060-eight-signs-of-hyper-grace-churches


And you'll see I know what I'm talking about. I learned about all this from a Hypergrace believer.

I think too is the term of Hyper and grace in the same context. it's an Oxymoron .

Hyper is contextually out of control Hyper= hyperactive or unusually energetic. or frantic,. The context trying to be Conveyed

Grace that is Beyond , over , exceeding. The issue is without Hyper added GRACE is enough. One does not have to amplfy Grace with a term like Hyper. This was done to sell books. Or even more disturbing, a Pastor who was renounced was caught in a sexual sin and he used the term “Hyper Grace” to Justify keep “his ministries” going. God imparted to him HYPER-Grace! Because with a sin like that old regular Grace is not enough. Even though the word says IF we confess our sins He is Faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness .
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yes I would agree, just some of the historical background is that someone not sure where it started, saw several lines where grace is described as exceeding, abounding and abundant and thus the term hyper grace was coined loosely based on the Greek word.

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded, all the more (Romans 5:20)

The Greek word for abounding being huperperisseuō



I think too is the term of Hyper and grace in the same context. it's an Oxymoron .

Hyper is contextually out of control Hyper= hyperactive or unusually energetic. or frantic,. The context trying to be Conveyed

Grace that is Beyond , over , exceeding. The issue is without Hyper added GRACE is enough. One does not have to amplfy Grace with a term like Hyper. This was done to sell books. Or even more disturbing, a Pastor who was renounced was caught in a sexual sin and he used the term “Hyper Grace” to Justify keep “his ministries” going. God imparted to him HYPER-Grace! Because with a sin like that old regular Grace is not enough. Even though the word says IF we confess our sins He is Faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness .
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,774
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Maybe what they have written is true but the two movements are in competition so to speak.
It is true enough. Here's is a summary of the article from Charisma:

The following are signs of a hypergrace church:

1. The preachers never speak against sin. [This is where the first two chapters of 1 John are ignored]

2. The lead pastor never takes a cultural stand for righteousness.

3. The Old Testament is almost totally ignored.

4. People who live immoral lives are allowed to teach and lead ministries.

5. The lead pastor speaks often against the institutional church.

6. The lead pastor preaches against tithing.

7. The lead pastor only preaches positive motivational messages. [a la Joseph Prince, Paul Ellis]

8. Key members of the church are regularly living sinful lives with impunity.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,344
113
Yes I would agree, just some of the historical background is that someone not sure where it started, saw several lines where grace is described as exceeding, abounding and abundant and thus the term hyper grace was coined loosely based on the Greek word.

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded, all the more (Romans 5:20)

The Greek word for abounding being huperperisseuō
Right which is the exceeding or beyond context of Hyper Grace. I see that too. but the full context is were sin was all so bounding=Hyper grace was to the equal of the out of control sin.
The issue with the teaching is many have allowed unbalence in the walk and our conduct to sin as professing Christains
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Sadly yes very true, :(

But on a happy note God is Goodness and Light!! :D

Right which is the exceeding or beyond context of Hyper Grace. I see that too. but the full context is were sin was all so bounding=Hyper grace was to the equal of the out of control sin.
The issue with the teaching is many have allowed unbalence in the walk and our conduct to sin as professing Christains
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Well like I said Charisma News is an NAR publication so I would not put much weight on anything they say.

The NAR movement is in competition with the Hypergrace movement ...strange as it may seem.

It is true enough. Here's is a summary of the article from Charisma:

The following are signs of a hypergrace church:

1. The preachers never speak against sin. [This is where the first two chapters of 1 John are ignored]

2. The lead pastor never takes a cultural stand for righteousness.

3. The Old Testament is almost totally ignored.

4. People who live immoral lives are allowed to teach and lead ministries.

5. The lead pastor speaks often against the institutional church.

6. The lead pastor preaches against tithing.

7. The lead pastor only preaches positive motivational messages. [a la Joseph Prince, Paul Ellis]

8. Key members of the church are regularly living sinful lives with impunity.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
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No, not at all.

It is my (probably fruitless) hope that this will not become yet another in a sea of osas debates.

Instead, I'd like to know why this subject is sooo important that people feel the need to debate it until they puke?
R...,

Because the 1960's new age religion type wants to live the life they choose and still be a christian.

The true Christian insist on living by scriptures and being righteous by maintaining G-d's laws and their intent.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
No, I am not.

We need another reformation but I don't think that's it.
haha

not to be confused with hg, OSAS or a blood blister

my sense of humor for the day is exhausted....:p

its obvious to me that some people think they know all about it because it appeared in the forums one day

no I don't mean you in this case Ralph
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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2 Timothy 2 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome

Mathew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Proverbs 30: 33 -
For as churning cream produces butter, and as twisting the nose produces blood, so stirring up anger produces strife."

Colossians 3:
8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices

Philippians 2:14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[SUP]c[/SUP] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky

Proverbs 13:10 Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united and of one mind and the same judgment.

*

Since one side is never going to convince the other side, can we not be of one mind to agree to disagree and end all the quarrels, strife, and arguing? Do you not think the Lord cries over the enormous waste of energy and time, not to mention the dissension and division these arguments cause? Every time you say 'Jane you ignorant slut' to another member of the body, you say it to Christ - Picture His face the next time you start to type out an abrasive missive. Because while you may address it to Joe Schmo, Jesus get's cc'd with it too.

Think about that when the next thread pops up (What's that gonna take, about 30 seconds?) and ask yourself if God reeeeeealy wants you to go down that road yet one. more. time.









 
Sep 4, 2012
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Well like I said Charisma News is an NAR publication so I would not put much weight on anything they say.

The NAR movement is in competition with the Hypergrace movement ...strange as it may seem.
John Crowder is both NAR and hyper grace. They'/re not mutually exclusive by any means.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Right which is the exceeding or beyond context of Hyper Grace. I see that too. but the full context is were sin was all so bounding=Hyper grace was to the equal of the out of control sin.
The issue with the teaching is many have allowed unbalence in the walk and our conduct to sin as professing Christains
I wonder which is worse.

To much grace. and thinking it excuses sin

or legalism, which hides sin (thus excusing their own sins because they are not the "major" sins) yet still as damning. and causes much self righteousness.

I think one must remember, when we stand before a Holy and righteous God, there are no good people and bad people. or really good people or really bad people. There is God and there are sinners. and all have sinned and fall short.

The church got away from seeing ourselves as we really are for years. Today people want to get back to this, And people in the old church are angry at this, as if it is some evil thing, and needs to be stamped out.

what needs to be stamped out is our (the churches) self righteousness. and we need to get back to our first love (God) its not a bad thing to remember where we came from. so we never go their again, It also is not a bad thing to look at sinners, and not see them as lower people. or people who are below us and unworthy, But as equals. (we are just as guilty as they are) and wish to share with them the good news of Jesus which is able to save them also.

To many churches want to remove specs out of other peoples eyes, while refusing to acknowledge the plank in their own eye. and what has been the result is self righteous people who do not understand christian growth and true love which Jesus shared.

Now if a pastor or deacon commits a grave sin, they should be removed from office immediately (they are held to a higher standing and should be held above reproach) but if after time, we see repentance and healing has occurred. why do we hold back their gifts? I know alot of pastors who before salvation did some prety evil things, Does that disqualify them? Why should it disqualify anyone else?

now saying this, if a pastor is using an excuse, instead of admitting his sin and confessing it with no excuses. Then he has not properly been healed of that sin, he is still in self righteous mode. And he should not be allowed to be restored to office.

 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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But in this passage the author makes it crystal clear that he is referring to the saved person (Hebrews 10:10,14).
Those who believe to the saving of the soul--YES. Those who draw back to perdition and DO NOT believe to the saving of the soul--NO. (verse 39). Hebrews 10:10 - By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected forever/for all time them that are sanctified. Does "draw back to perdition" sound like sanctified once for all/perfected forever/for all time to you? I didn't think so. You can't have your cake and eat it too Ralph.

You're not being a very good Berean. You, like so many others, are not reading the Bible for yourself. You are reading what people have written about the Bible and have not tested it for yourself against what the Bible says. I guess the reasoning is these 'learned' mean who are held in high esteem and seem to be educated and spiritual about these things and have been followed and published for decades and centuries then they must know what they are talking about. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's just interesting that you choose to use a usage of the word 'sanctified' that conveniently makes the passage once saved always saved while the author himself plainly tells us what he means by the person sanctified by the blood of Christ. It's hard to have respect for someone who does that.
Actually, I have read the Bible for myself, numerous times and have tested what it says against what others have said. Making false accusations against others and painting OSAS believers with a broad brush of teaching hyper grace is not being honest, so it's hard for me to have respect for someone who does that.

*To "willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth" (verse 26) and "draw back to perdition" does not describe someone who has truly been born of God (1 John 3:9) and such a person is NOT sanctified once for all or perfected forever/for all time but the genuine believer who has believed to the saving of the soul has truly been washed, sanctified and justified (1 Corinthians 6:11).

No, it does not mean you would have to say that.

'Sanctified' has several uses and meanings in the Bible. The point is, the author of Hebrews tells us himself which one he is referring to, yet it is soundly rejected and ignored in popular teaching in the church in favor of another application and usage of 'sanctified' to suit a predetermined doctrine of 'once saved always saved'.
Sanctified does not mean saved for those who "draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul" and you just admitted that "sanctified" has several uses and meanings in the Bible, so you are half way there. It's you who is out to accommodate your biased doctrine of eternal IN-security at all costs. It's interesting how false religions and cults, such as Roman Catholicism and Mormonism strongly share your same views about OSAS.

Look at this:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;"-Hebrews 10:23

"do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward."-Hebrews 10:35
Those who draw back to perdition and DO NOT believe to the saving of the soul, obviously did not heed these words because their confession of hope and confidence was obviously not firmly rooted and established from the start or else they would have believed to the saving of the soul.

These exhortations make it IMPOSSIBLE that vs.39 means they are incapable of going back to unbelief.
Not at all. DID NOT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL is not saving belief, so how can they go back to unbelief when they did not truly believe? Obviously, genuine belief was never firmly rooted and established in the first place. Those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition and those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul.

No. You did not consider the context. The context tells us in plain words that 'sanctified' means the born again person:

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."-Hebrews 10:10

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."-Hebrews 10:14
I did consider the context and for the born again believer, sanctified means saved, and the saved believer is sanctified once for all/perfected for all time, but for the "nominal" Christian who draws back to perdition and does not believe to the saving of the soul, such a person may have been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, yet has renounced their identification with other believers, by "rejecting the knowledge of the truth" they had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that their identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was merely superficial and that they themselves were NOT genuine believers who were born again.

You are rejecting the plain words of the passage that defines 'sanctified' as someone who has been perfected in Christ (that is, saved) to defend a predetermined doctrine of once saved always saved.
You are rejecting the context and ignoring the fact that only genuine believers are sanctified/once for all/perfected forever/for all time (and not unbelievers who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul) in order to defend your predetermined doctrine of losing salvation. Nice try Ralph, but no cigar.

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we see a CONTRAST between genuine believers and unbelievers:

Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

*In Hebrews 12:5, we read - See to it that no one comes short/falls short/fails to obtain the grace of God.