Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest

this is the page post is on too :)

it pragmatically means to me, when Gandalf comes to my house ((yes, you are invited!!)) we will definitely not be serving ham

just like there are people i will gladly share wine with, and others who i know i should never drink around, because of their own conscience, though mine may be clean.

Amen, as paul said be all things to all people, don't take your liberty to far.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
You don't see the phrase 'oral Torah' in Acts 15 however. In fact you don't see it in the Bible, anywhere.

You see in Moses that God commanded him to write down all the laws He gave.

So how do I know you're not just making things up out of thin air & while cloth? Especially as acts 15 explicitly says 'the law of Moses'? You want me to believe that 'the law if Moses' means something entirely different than 'the law of Moses'?
The Apostles James and Peter were taught by Jesus regarding the Pharisees religion. It seem prudent to get our information on the Pharisees from Him as did James and Peter.

HE SAID:

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

HE SAID:

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they ( Pharisees, NOT GOD) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders (Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

HE SAID;

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

HE SAID;

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So we know from Jesus that the Pharisees "claimed" to be God's Children, "claimed" to keep the Law of Moses. But they did not.

As Jesus said: They created their own Doctrines from man, and laid these burdensome man made doctrines and traditions in the Backs of the People and have been doing so for years.

There are some who preach that Now, all the sudden, these Jews had rejected their man made doctrines and traditions that they had been burdening the people with for centuries, and are now truly following the Law of Moses and teaching others to do so?

No, Peter and James knew better. They had the Word's of Christ and His Spirit in them. They would have known and remembered His Teaching about them. And their actions proved that they did.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

This Yoke placed on the Shoulders of the People was not God's Law. Can you find "ONE TIME" Jesus said the Pharisees were following God's Commandments? Just one??? And the Apostles knew this as confirmed by Stephen before He was murdered by the Pharisees.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

No, it isn't there. The Yoke the Preachers of their time placed in the necks of their fathers was the "Burden" of man made traditions, they said it was the Law of Moses, but Jesus said they were liars, Hypocrites, and were NOT teaching the Law of Moses. His Apostles knew this as well.

Then if you continue, you will see that James told them of some sins they needed to repent of straight away, and then they gave the New Converts the same instructions Jesus gave to them.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols (Law of Moses), and from fornication(Law of Moses), and from things strangled(Law of Moses), and from blood(Law of Moses).

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Matt. 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
Amen, as paul said be all things to all people, don't take your liberty to far.

when you come over we can eat & drink whatever it is that pleases you :)

"
the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking"



& don't serve post tabasco sauce or ghost peppers, please. not because i'd be offended morally; i just don't care for hot & spicy food ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
The Apostles James and Peter were taught by Jesus regarding the Pharisees religion. It seem prudent to get our information on the Pharisees from Him as did James and Peter.

HE SAID:

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

HE SAID:

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they ( Pharisees, NOT GOD) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders (Necks); but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

HE SAID;

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

HE SAID;

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So we know from Jesus that the Pharisees "claimed" to be God's Children, "claimed" to keep the Law of Moses. But they did not.

As Jesus said: They created their own Doctrines from man, and laid these burdensome man made doctrines and traditions in the Backs of the People and have been doing so for years.

There are some who preach that Now, all the sudden, these Jews had rejected their man made doctrines and traditions that they had been burdening the people with for centuries, and are now truly following the Law of Moses and teaching others to do so?

No, Peter and James knew better. They had the Word's of Christ and His Spirit in them. They would have known and remembered His Teaching about them. And their actions proved that they did.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

This Yoke placed on the Shoulders of the People was not God's Law. Can you find "ONE TIME" Jesus said the Pharisees were following God's Commandments? Just one??? And the Apostles knew this as confirmed by Stephen before He was murdered by the Pharisees.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

No, it isn't there. The Yoke the Preachers of their time placed in the necks of their fathers was the "Burden" of man made traditions, they said it was the Law of Moses, but Jesus said they were liars, Hypocrites, and were NOT teaching the Law of Moses. His Apostles knew this as well.

Then if you continue, you will see that James told them of some sins they needed to repent of straight away, and then they gave the New Converts the same instructions Jesus gave to them.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols (Law of Moses), and from fornication(Law of Moses), and from things strangled(Law of Moses), and from blood(Law of Moses).

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Matt. 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

cool story but what does Acts 15:5 say in your Bible?

"
teachings and commandments of men" or "the Law of Moses" ?

what does Romans 6:14 say in the SSV[SUP]1[/SUP] ?

"
you are not under law, but grace" or "you are not under human traditions, but Law" ?








































1: Studyman Standard Version
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
This Yoke placed on the Shoulders of the People was not God's Law. Can you find "ONE TIME" Jesus said the Pharisees were following God's Commandments? Just one???

Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin

(Matthew 23:23)

You are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
(Matthew 23:27-28)​



just like in Matthew 5 where He takes '
do not murder' and 'do not commit adultery' to the n[SUP]th[/SUP] level, He tells the pharisees that they do all the outward things that make them appear righteous before men and justified in man's eyes ((o look, we're in James again)) but inwardly, before God they are full of iniquity and wickedness.

the outside of the cup.

the inside of the cup.

He also says,
stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly!


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
I think different bro, when he says it is written he speaks of written torah, (ie, it is written, though shalt not commit adultry) when he says but i say, he is explaining the written torah is good, but truth is, it goes deeper than that. if i never sleep with another woman, according to the written word (torah) i am not a sinner, yet if I lust, i have sinned, the written word was insufficient in helping me keep from sin.

He was xplainimg how people used the law,to justify themselfs as righteous. When reality said otherwise.
Yes, Jesus used the term "it is written" some 26 times in the NT. But He didn't use it here and I think it is a mistake to change the text.

He just got through saying "Not one jot or title" shall pass from the Law, then He rebuked the Mainstream Preachers called the Pharisees who have corrupted God's Word for centuries by "teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men".

Then, many preach, He changed course out of the blue, completely changed the subject, and re-wrote His fathers Commandments.

I think it is dangerous to replace His Word's with your own, as it was for the Preachers of His time.

Look at the difference in meaning by replacing His Word's with yours.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

When did the Word which became Flesh teach this, just then, as you imply, or did He teach this as the Word before becoming Flesh, and the Pharisees "of old time" omitted this teaching.

He did teach this.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (Word which became Flesh)

And Jesus did say of "them of old time":

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

They taught "Thou shall not kill" but not "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart".

The Bible taught this, the Word which became Flesh taught this, but those Preachers "Of Old Time" did not.

If Jesus was referring to Moses or the Law and Prophets, He would have said "it is written" like He did EVERY TIME He referred to scriptures.

He rebuked the Pharisees and was correcting the teaching of "THEM of old time", not Moses.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”
And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “
You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.

(Mark 10:20-21)

was this rich man a pharisee? some teachers say, indeed. it how did a man who kept the commandments get rich in 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Judea...
Jesus loved him

where in Torah does it say get rid of everything you have and give it to the poor? :rolleyes:


[video=youtube;MaGyW9eTZJo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaGyW9eTZJo[/video]


behold!!
One greater than Moses is among us
:)


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113

cool story but what does Acts 15:5 say in your Bible?

"
teachings and commandments of men" or "the Law of Moses" ?

what does Romans 6:14 say in the SSV[SUP]1[/SUP] ?

"
you are not under law, but grace" or "you are not under human traditions, but Law" ?

We just believe differently. I believe we should consider ALL scriptures in our understanding of God's Word. I know the Pharisees "SAID" they were God's People and were following God's Commandments, but Jesus didn't believe them, Peter and James didn't believe them either. You are free to get your information about them from them if you like. I am relying on what the Christ says about them.

I am a big believer in considering ALL scriptures, not just the ones who promote my religious lifestyle. But that's just me.

Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (Dead in your sins), but under grace(Alive through Faith).
15 What then? shall we sin(Transgress the Commandments of God), because we are not (Dead) under the law, but (Alive) under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Obedience to what? The instructions of the Word which became Flesh? Or religious traditions of man?





 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113

I am a big believer in considering ALL scriptures, not just the ones who promote my religious lifestyle. But that's just me.

yeah, you say that, but it just doesn't seem like you're much a fan of "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day"

unless of course you privately redefine most of the words written there ((and ignore completely the New Moon)), like you did with Romans 6:14 just now.
interesting that you equate, by insertion into the text, what is written, "
law" with your own private interpretation, 'dead in your sins' -- while preaching that you're under law.

"
I lay before you life and death" it's written. "choose life" He says.
"
put away the bondwoman" is what scripture says.


 
Jan 25, 2015
9,213
3,189
113

how does God give Noah every living creature for food and then give the people of the Sinai covenant a law that forbids eating some of them?
how does God command Jericho be wholly destroyed but allow Ai to be taken as spoil?
does this mean He is not the same?
Noah knew what animals were clean and what was unclean, remember that Israel was in bondage for 400 years and under the influence of the religion in Egypt. God did not change :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
Noah knew what animals were clean and what was unclean, remember that Israel was in bondage for 400 years and under the influence of the religion in Egypt. God did not change :)

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.
Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

(Genesis 9:3)


seems to me that "
everything" means "everything"
 
Jan 25, 2015
9,213
3,189
113

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.
Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

(Genesis 9:3)


seems to me that "
everything" means "everything"
Brother, Noah knew what was clean and what was unclean :) he would never eat pork meat. He was obedient.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113

Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin

(Matthew 23:23)

You are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
(Matthew 23:27-28)​



just like in Matthew 5 where He takes '
do not murder' and 'do not commit adultery' to the n[SUP]th[/SUP] level, He tells the pharisees that they do all the outward things that make them appear righteous before men and justified in man's eyes ((o look, we're in James again)) but inwardly, before God they are full of iniquity and wickedness.

the outside of the cup.

the inside of the cup.

He also says,
stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly!
Yes, I agree that the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, and those who followed them, served God with their lips only, as it is written.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

They said they followed God, but they rejected His Word's and instructions that didn't fit their religious traditions.

Kind of like you did on the Matt 23 verse you quoted. Notice how the meaning of the verse changes when you actually use ALL the Word's of the sentence.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Your version; "for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin".

This is your one example of the Pharisees following the Law of Moses?

This is why I believe it is important to consider ALL scriptures when making judgments, and not just those scriptures which support a man made religious tradition, which may "look" righteous on the outside, but is rebellion and indifference to God and His Word's on the inside.

None of this changes the Biblical fact that it was the Mainstream Preachers of that time and before who "omitted" much of God's instructions and replaced them with their own, called it "the Law of Moses", and placed it on the shoulders of men.

I don't see how you can deny this.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
Brother, Noah knew what was clean and what was unclean :) he would never eat pork meat. He was obedient.

Noah knew what "
everything" meant, and 'clean and unclean' was always used in conjunction with sacrificial use, in the record, until Moses. the next mention in fact, Genesis 8:20, is sacrificing of the 'clean' animals, not eating.

but it is speculation, on both sides of whether '
clean and unclean' in Genesis 7-8 have any reference to food. and it is speculation that when God said "everything" what He really meant was "everything except for unclean animals which I will not at this time give any written account of"

i generally have a hang-up about forms of speculation that replace/redefine what's literally written in the scripture this way, as you might have noticed with my contention that "
law" means "law" and "grace" means "grace" haha

friend, we won't solve the depth of meaning of Genesis 9:3 today. i'm giving you some of the alternate view now, is all. but i'll make a deal, we will go ask Noah for his own impression together one day - how about that? and my Lord will instruct all three of us that day :)


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”
And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “
You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.

(Mark 10:20-21)

was this rich man a pharisee? some teachers say, indeed. it how did a man who kept the commandments get rich in 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Judea...
Jesus loved him

where in Torah does it say get rid of everything you have and give it to the poor? :rolleyes:


[video=youtube;MaGyW9eTZJo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaGyW9eTZJo[/video]


behold!!
One greater than Moses is among us
:)

"Thou shall have no other gods before Me"

You forget a very important part of the teaching's of the Bible. It's called "Deception". Jesus exposed to this rich man that he had in fact, Not kept God's Laws from his youth, as did Zechariahs. He was convinced that he was "saved" so to speak, but he was deceived wasn't he. His possessions meant more to him than obedience to His creator. He was in transgression of the first and greatest commandment.



Does the unbelief of this man, or anyone, make the faith of God void? God forbid.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
Your version; "for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin".

This is your one example of the Pharisees following the Law of Moses?
you asked for "ONE" example. you even used all caps, emphasizing the singular number.
you cannot accuse them of failing to tithe their herbs. Jesus says they followed & kept this.
i only quoted what was directly relevant to what you requested, for the sake of brevity.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
"Thou shall have no other gods before Me"
i suppose that's supposed to be your answer to "where in Torah does it say get rid of everything you have and give it to the poor" ?

if '
have no other gods' means 'have no possessions' why did He command them to ask for the possessions of the Egyptians, to take possession of lands, and to spoil cities? how could He command tithe of possessions if He meant for no one to have any?

((maybe we shouldn't redefine/replace the text of scripture - seems to lead to awful confusion))
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,809
6,367
113
i suppose that's supposed to be your answer to "where in Torah does it say get rid of everything you have and give it to the poor" ?

if '
have no other gods' means 'have no possessions' why did He command them to ask for the possessions of the Egyptians, to take possession of lands, and to spoil cities? how could He command tithe of possessions if He meant for no one to have any?

((maybe we shouldn't redefine/replace the text of scripture - seems to lead to awful confusion))
but, see, when one just deconstructs and reconstructs Scripture, mix in their own opinion , then they are never wrong.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
His possessions meant more to him than obedience to His creator. He was in transgression of the first and greatest commandment.
that's certainly the mainstream human religious tradition and teaching.

the apostles might have even thought so at the time. but Jesus at that time told them that what was impossible with man was possible with God, and the Spirit makes sure to mention in the text that He loved this man, and all that's written of him is that he was sad, because he had great possessions.

the scripture does not say whether he did what Christ told him or whether he did not. it does not say whether he was sad because he would not, or sad because he was about to actually carry through with it.

human tradition, mainstream religious teaching -- your teaching in this case, studydude -- inserts human judgement and human impossibility and human assumption into the scripture here.

i like to think he did what Christ said. i know that's not a popular view.
but i think, Jesus said "
possible" so how long will we continue to say 'impossible' ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,694
13,135
113
but, see, when one just deconstructs and reconstructs Scripture, mix in their own opinion , then they are never wrong.
yes, it is a clever strategy!
one even gets to say they consider all the scripture, because they're not omitting any verses per se, just replacing them.