I think you need to learn the difference between labeling someone and identifying characteristics of someone's beliefs.
Loss of salvation.
- Thread starter BillG
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I think you need to learn the difference between labeling someone and identifying characteristics of someone's beliefs.
So did gnosticism just disappear from the face of the earth? It was a very serious heresy during the first few centuries of the church. John devoted most of 1 John (if not all of it) to refuting its teachings.
Hey. Pencil me in for whatever label makes you feel good. Cause I absolutely believe my behavior WILL NOT change what Jesus did for me. Which is pay my price I owed for sin through His death. Guaranteeing that I will live again because HEROSEFROMTHEDEAD!
What you guys can't seem to grasp, is that being a child of God, being sealed with His Holy Spirit, means He is going to
conform me more and more into His likeness. BECAUSE I'm His.
This whole idea that because we FULLY trust in HIS Work, and believe HE will NEVER leave nor forsake us, means we preach "you can live any way you want" IS a vicious slander that Paul tells us is worthy of condemnation.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
You are welcome
Making the connection between how some people think and/or what the origins of the influences on their thinking is, offends some people, but I do not in any way think you say such things to be offensive. You are very knowledgeable on gnostic lines of thought, the problems they caused in the early church, and how the strains of that has echoed throughout the history of the church, to remain with us today.
I was paraphrasing what Irenaeus, a 2nd century church father, wrote about what the gnostics that he knew believed.
I don't care what you call it and or care for your fancy words.
You accuse others who believe in grace as using it as I licence to sin.
And me thinks you would just write someone off as being Gnostic if they are caught up in sin or tell them they have lost their salvation without even wanting to walk with them. I hope I'm wrong.
What I care about is
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
If i see a fellow brother struggling I will walk with them.
If it's apparent that they are struggling and need help I will help.
If it's apparent they think it's ok to sin I will remind them of Romans 6.
If they have no desire to change I will leave them alone.
A genuine believers behaviour does not affect their salvation, it affects their relationship with God and his blessings.
You haven't called me Gnostic yet but by inference I think you have.
But you have called me a front door, back door something or other and obviously believe that I think it's ok to sin because grace will cover it.
Ta muchly
U
UnderGrace
Guest
It is always "grace" that is offense.
Yet grace does what the law never could.
But "grace' gets the blame
Yet grace does what the law never could.
But "grace' gets the blame
This is completely untrue. What I do is call a certain doctrine lawless. You turn that into a personal accusation for some reason.
I'm not saying it's not serious.
And I totally agree with you that John was addressing this.
Yes you were drawing a line.
But what I hear you saying is that someone doctrinally disagrees with you then by inference they are Gnostic.
2 Pet 2:20-21
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
You cannot escape the defilements of the world unless you have saving faith. If you become entangled in them again after saving faith you are worse off than someone who had never believed
The problem is when we indentify characteristics of someone's belief then we do label them or come across as labelling them.
Go back and read post 278, your response to me.
Here is the post.
You have come across as defining what you think the characteristics of my faith is based on what you think I have described.
Therefore you have labeled me.
You lose your salvation by commiting a serious sin. For those who see no distinction among sins look at the Old Testament law and the punishments for each sin. They range from making a sin offering or public humiliation to the death penalty. Death penalty sins cause you to lose your salvation until you return to God with a contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment and ask for forgiveness.
N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
i did not imply that is all a saving faith is
"Biblical saving faith is to believe and act upon that belief and to grab hold of Christ with a sense of desperation, knowing that without Him I will die, and be doomed to hell forever. Saving faith leans upon Christ, depends upon him, and then has a relationship with Him."
this is also not the only way to describe a saving faith though i would agree that all of this can be used in part to describe a saving faith i would add that a saving faith endures
and one that does not endure isnt a saving faith
id also could add fruit follows the new heart and spirit throughout our walk
mark 4
3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
______________
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root
their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
____________
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
again no root... not born again
no enduring faith
trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him
(like the reprobate)
never born again
Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
____________
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him
there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him
1 peter
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
we are those who no doubt continue in the faith
not those who fall away into unbelief
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Well yes, this would explain why you would consider being born again in Christ as Gnosticism and the assurance of eternal life when one is born again a problem....
This is what Iranaeus preached
"But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory" (ch.10:1). Against Heresies, Book I,
Reads like salvation by works to me.
This is what Iranaeus preached
"But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory" (ch.10:1). Against Heresies, Book I,
Reads like salvation by works to me.