The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

You are right in saying that we are the temple of God. All those in Christ are part of the kingdom. With regard to a Temple being built one couldn't be desecrated because it would be an abomination

Again, what you and others are not understanding is that, there remains a one seven year period that must be fulfilled according to the decree of seventy seven year periods (490 years) that was pronounced upon Israel. It is because of yours and others lack of understanding regarding this that you do err.

Yes, all those in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, belong to the church. But God is going to deal with Israel proper in fulfillment of that last seven years.

 

[PlainWord]

It is obvious to the casual observer that you ignored the highlighted verse speaking for me. Why is that? Again you put your emotion driven beliefs over the words of Bible. In Revelation there will come a time when you prophets of God will be killed and the earth will rejoice seeing their bodies lay in the streets for days. ​Oh gee how could this happen before today with modern communications. Go peddle your non Biblical thesis elsewhere!!

What are you afraid of dear brother? Why won't you answer my questions concerning Mat 23. Which generation was Jesus speaking to? Go ahead if you know. Tell me what generation does this apply to?

Mt 23:26 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.​

​

[SUB][/SUB]

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

Glad we have some agreement, a lot actually.

Yes, very much.

Our main difference is you take half of Mat 24 and place it in the first century then the other half to 1948 or yet future.

Most of Matt 24 is about the events leading up to, and including the 70 ad destruction.

Nowhere is a gap taught or even hinted at.

You are the one saying that there is a gap after 70 ad. Your gap starts at 70 ad and continues to this day.

But there is no gap. The times of the gentiles follows the 70 ad destruction. The ToG's lasted until 1967. Lk 21:20-24

You don't buy the gap in Dan 9, so why are you putting one in Mat 24? Let me address some of your points where we still disagree.

Let's discuss the time length of the fleeing and this notion you have of a return to Jer. I'm using the YLT more and more:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I see no mention of a return to Jer, do you? In fact the fleeing is from the dragon (Rome) for protection during the War of the Jews. So she fled for protection and there is no mention of a return to Jer because after the war was over, there was no Jer to return to.​

So after after Jerusalem fell, that was it. The woman wasn't in the wilderness anymore, or was she still in the wilderness? If she was still in the wilderness, then the 3 1/2 times were not finished. The 3 1/2 times are not years.

Perhaps you aren't picking up on the significance of the "eagles wings?" Before I explain, remember, the Woman of Rev 12 is the real Israel, those who accepted Christ. This is a new concept, the severing of Israel into two pieces, saved and unsaved, or wheat and tares. They are identical in every way except in their heart.

According to Josephus, before the rebellion and the start of the war, these Jewish Christians heard a divine voice that told them to leave. They fled Jerusalem after the feast of Pentecost on the 21st of Jyar (or Iyar) in 66 AD. This would have been around Apr-May 66 AD. The Zealots revolted in August that same year and they took over Masada. Nero sent Cestius Gallus in Oct-Nov 66 AD to put down the rebellion. The Jews defeated Cestius and his 12th Legion. Nero ordered Vespasian to then go and put down the seditious.

Vespasian's campaign last two years. He subdues western and northern Israel and briefly surrounds Jer in Dec 69 AD. Vespasian returns to Rome to take the crown following a brief civil war after Nero's death in 68 AD. He sends his son, Titus, to finish the War. Titus arrives and starts surrounding Jerusalem in Apr 70 AD. The temple is destroyed in Sep 70 AD. After a month or two of mopping up, Titus and most of his Roman armies leave. Once gone, Rome is no longer a threat to the Jewish Christians dwelling in Pella.

The Romans continued to kill Israel for the next 1900 years. To say that everything ended in 70 ad, the persecution by Rome, is complete falsehood.

So, do the math.

The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

April-May 66 AD (Woman flees for protection)
Sep - Nov 70 AD (Israel defeated, Roman armies leave)

I count just about 3.5 years.

Sure, but the 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.

Now here is the part about the wings of the eagles. See Exodus 19, a happier time.

​

It wasn't a happy time. They were slaves in the desert who were being sifted by God. 20,000 fell in one day.


​

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye -- ye have seen that which I have done to the Egyptians, and I bear you on eagles' wings, and bring you in unto Myself.​

[SUP]5 [/SUP]`And now, if ye really hearken to My voice, then ye have kept My covenant, and been to Me a peculiar treasure more than all the peoples, for all the earth [is] Mine;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]and ye -- ye are to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation: these [are] the words which thou dost speak unto the sons of Israel.'
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Moses cometh, and calleth for the elders of the people, and setteth before them all these words which Jehovah hath commanded him;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]and all the people answer together and say, `All that Jehovah hath spoken we do;' and Moses returneth the words of the people unto Jehovah.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Lo, I am coming unto thee in the thickness of the cloud, so that the people hear in My speaking with thee, and also believe in thee to the age;' and Moses declareth the words of the people unto Jehovah.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go unto the people; and thou hast sanctified them to-day and to-morrow, and they have washed their garments,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and have been prepared for the third day; for on the third day doth Jehovah come down before the eyes of all the people, on mount Sinai.​

WOW. So my take away from this is God made a new covenant with the real Israel, the believing Israel who He led to safety in Pella. Not only were they safe, but they were also nourished (spiritually fed). Notice in the above that God literally CAME DOWN IN THE THICKNESS OF A CLOUD (sound familiar) in the site of the whole country (sound familiar)?

You are trying to make it fit, but I don't see it.

After this, the WOMAN planted churches all over the Transjordan, Syria and beyond. There is so much more to this if you are at all interested???

Again, I have been down the road that you are on. It cannot stand the test of scripture. The theory is full of holes.

"And their enemies beheld them".

200,000,000.

The preterist theory was acceptable until Israel was restored. 1967 proved that not everything was finished by 70 ad.

The statue of Daniel 2 says that the time of the iron was much longer than 130 years, 63 bc-70 ad.


​

 

[Endoscopy]

What are you afraid of dear brother? Why won't you answer my questions concerning Mat 23. Which generation was Jesus speaking to? Go ahead if you know. Tell me what generation does this apply to?

Mt 23:26 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.​

You ignore the highlighted verse in AMPC translation that says an unidentified future time. Try to look at what I post. Many times I respond with a Biblical quote. Why do you ignore that scripture??

 

[abcdef]

Tanakh,

It is because you don't understand the prophecy. In the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, a decree was pronounced upon Israel and Jerusalem of seventy 'sevens" i.e. seventy sets of seven year periods. These where divided into three parts:

7 sevens = to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Read Nehemiah)

62 sevens = totaling 69 sevens, at the end of which the Messiah was cut off i.e. Christ crucified

69 of the seven sets of years has been completed when Christ was crucified. At that time, God put a pause on the last seven years to be fulfilled and began to build His church. The fulfillment of that last seven will take place in conjunction with the end of the age leading up to Christ's return to the earth.

But prior to God fulfilling that last seven years with Israel and according to His promise, God is going to gather His church from the earth. Once the church has been gathered, God will then pick up right where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with temple and sacrifices. Sometime after the church has been gathered, that antichrist will be revealed and will make his seven year covenant allowing Israel to build her temple. Regarding the decree of Dan.9:24, It is at this time that God will " finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

It is during this seven years that God will also be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as revealed in Dan.2:31-46 where the Gentile nations symbolically represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue is smashed to pieces without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government and the establishing of the Lords.

God had the temple destroyed so that it would be rebuilt in fulfillment of that last seven years in conjunction with the end of the age. It is going to require the revealing of that antichrist who will appease Islam making it possible for Israel to build her temple. It is by God's design that after the 6 day war the control of the temple mount was relinquished to the Waqf (Islam) so that Israel would not build her temple before the proper time.

The 7 times are not 7 years. They represent the same time period as the statue of Daniel 2, which is, the time from Babylon until Jerusalem is restored to Israel, 1967. Shown by the angel in Dan. 12.

It doesn't matter if they build another temple or not because the presence of the Holy Spirit is in us now and would not be in a temple that men have rebuilt. The presence of God would not be there, and because the spirit of God was not there, it could not be defiled as the 70 ad temple was. It would be like any other building to God.

God has unfinished prophecy with Israel. He has not abandoned her, as many believe.

God has unfinished prophecy with the natural branches that were cut off.

The thought that Jesus was done with the natural branches and that the kingdom of Israel was now the "church", was RCC in origin, I believe. Designed to create a separate entity from the true natural branches.

The church has not replaced Israel but is a separate dispensation from the church.

The kingdom, is the kingdom of Israel, but the broken branches still have a part to be fulfilled.

The broken branches have military control over Jerusalem right now, ending the times of the gentiles. This is the last chance for Israel of the broken branches to accept Jesus.

When the resur/rapt happens, there won't be any 2nd chances, Israel or otherwise, because this planet is destroyed by fire.



.



------

 

[tanakh]

Again, what you and others are not understanding is that, there remains a one seven year period that must be fulfilled according to the decree of seventy seven year periods (490 years) that was pronounced upon Israel. It is because of yours and others lack of understanding regarding this that you do err.

Yes, all those in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, belong to the church. But God is going to deal with Israel proper in fulfillment of that last seven years.

I do understand your dispensationalist view of scripture which I once shared and rejected. One of the basic errors in your view is the insistence that Christ was crucified in the sixty ninth week when scripture clearly states that it was after the sixty ninth which means there was a seventieth. For one more time here is the text

Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city
to finish transgression, to put an end to sin to atone for wickedness
to bring everlasting righteousness to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy.

Know this and understand this . From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one the ruler
comes there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens. It will be
rebuilt with streets and a trench but in times of trouble.
AFTER the sixty two sevens the anointed one will be cut off
and have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will
destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood
War will continue until the end and desolation's have been decreed. He
will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the midst of
the seven he will put an end to the sacrifice and offering. And on the
wing of the Temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 9:25-27 NIV

Seven sevens and sixty two sevens equal sixty nine sevens. It clearly states that it is after the sixty two sevens that the annointed is cut off. We are then left with three options as follows...

1 We can ignore the plain scripture and continue to place Christs crucifixion in the sixty ninth seven.

2 Logically believe that the seventieth seven followed the sixty ninth and that Christ was 'cut off' half way through that week.

3 Really go into the realms of fantasy and believe that Christs crucifixion is yet to take place in a future seven year tribulation

Another interesting feature in this passage is that Daniel was told the people of the ruler to come would destroy the city and the sanctuary. This happened in 70AD. The ruler to come was Christ and the people he used to do it were Romans. Christ told the Jewish leadership that their house would be left desolate and it was. He also told his Disciples to flee Judea when they saw the abomination of desolation. In Luke that saying is replaced by Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

I know you and others wont believe me but much of the book of Revelation is about Gods judgement on apostate Israel
who is called Babylon the Great, Egypt and Sodom. John is given visions based on OT events and Prophecies almost all of which concern Israel and her apostasy. Types and symbols are used to deliver the message. Many of the events prophesied in the Bible have more than one application but that doesn't mean we need to manipulate scripture to make it fit our views or insert none existent time periods into the text

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes, very much.




Most of Matt 24 is about the events leading up to, and including the 70 ad destruction.




You are the one saying that there is a gap after 70 ad. Your gap starts at 70 ad and continues to this day.

But there is no gap. The times of the gentiles follows the 70 ad destruction. The ToG's lasted until 1967. Lk 21:20-24

So after after Jerusalem fell, that was it. The woman wasn't in the wilderness anymore, or was she still in the wilderness? If she was still in the wilderness, then the 3 1/2 times were not finished. The 3 1/2 times are not years.






The Romans continued to kill Israel for the next 1900 years. To say that everything ended in 70 ad, the persecution by Rome, is complete falsehood.



The 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.




Sure, but the 3 1/2 times are not 3 1/2 years.


​

It wasn't a happy time. They were slaves in the desert who were being sifted by God. 20,000 fell in one day.


​

You are trying to make it fit, but I don't see it.



Again, I have been down the road that you are on. It cannot stand the test of scripture. The theory is full of holes.

"And their enemies beheld them".

200,000,000.

The preterist theory was acceptable until Israel was restored. 1967 proved that not everything was finished by 70 ad.

The statue of Daniel 2 says that the time of the iron was much longer than 130 years, 63 bc-70 ad.


​

Ohhhh geeeee wizzzz. Been down this road several times . It is eschatologyical portions of the Bible and taking in all of the eschatologyical scripture it is as clear as mud. Daniel states the book is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way. Theologians ended up creating 4 seperate views of eschatology as a result. Even then the 4 might all be wrong. Almost everything in eschatology (end times) is guess work. Some is clear but not much. We wait for end times for all to be clear.

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
Matthew 24 isn't about 70AD except for the prophecy about the temple. After telling them not one stone would be left on another of the temple complex the disciples then asked Jesus about end times. The rest of the chapter is devoted to answering that question. End times is still in the future. Why don't some people not notice this seperation in the text?

 

[abcdef]

Ohhhh geeeee wizzzz. Been down this road several times . It is eschatologyical portions of the Bible and taking in all of the eschatologyical scripture it is as clear as mud.

Brother Endoscopy,

If you are predisposed to that requirement, then you are forcing your self to never understand or come to any conclusion.

Daniel states the book is closed until the end times.

We are in the end times. They began on Pentecost and end at the resur/rapt. After that is judgment and eternity Rev 20:10-15.

Revelation is written the same way.

Revelation shows the scroll of 7 seals being opened. But you say that it is not true, you say that the scroll is still closed and Jesus didn't open it.

Theologians ended up creating 4 seperate views of eschatology as a result. Even then the 4 might all be wrong. Almost everything in eschatology (end times) is guess work. Some is clear but not much. We wait for end times for all to be clear.

And when the truth comes, how do you think that it will come?

Do you think that a shiny new limo will pull up in front of the church building? Then tambourines will shake and trumpets will blow? Then out comes a man in a fancy suit with alligator shoes who starts praising the lord and passing the plate? All the people cheer and sing, "Look at this man, surly he is a prophet of the Lord, what he says must be the truth, and don't disagree with him".

Oh wait, we already have that.

So how do you think that the truth will come?

Maybe a small voice? A voice that speaks to us in our closet when we read the Bible in prayer? A voice that speaks to all men and women everywhere. A rock steady voice that has spoken the truth for eternity.

We are supposed to know the truth. The truth will be known before the resur/rapt so that all will have a clear choice, Accept Jesus or reject the salvation that is freely given.

There will be no planet left except fire after the resur/rapt.

 

[tanakh]

Addendum
Matthew 24 isn't about 70AD except for the prophecy about the temple. After telling them not one stone would be left on another of the temple complex the disciples then asked Jesus about end times. The rest of the chapter is devoted to answering that question. End times is still in the future. Why don't some people not notice this seperation in the text?

. Christ was following the same method as the prophets. His message had more than one application. You also have to take notice of all his warnings and parables in the gospels to get the full picture. In Matthew 23 he warned the leadership that vengeance for all the blood shed from Abel to Zechariah would fallon their generation not on some distant one. He told them what would happen to them and the nation if they rejected him and it happened as he said it would. They didnt have to wait for it to happen in some distant future but in their lifetime. He told them that he kingdom would be taken from them and given to others who would bare fruit.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endoscopy,

If you are predisposed to that requirement, then you are forcing your self to never understand or come to any conclusion.




We are in the end times. They began on Pentecost and end at the resur/rapt. After that is judgment and eternity Rev 20:10-15.




Revelation shows the scroll of 7 seals being opened. But you say that it is not true, you say that the scroll is still closed and Jesus didn't open it.




And when the truth comes, how do you think that it will come?

Do you think that a shiny new limo will pull up in front of the church building? Then tambourines will shake and trumpets will blow? Then out comes a man in a fancy suit with alligator shoes who starts praising the lord and passing the plate? All the people cheer and sing, "Look at this man, surly he is a prophet of the Lord, what he says must be the truth, and don't disagree with him".

Oh wait, we already have that.

So how do you think that the truth will come?

Maybe a small voice? A voice that speaks to us in our closet when we read the Bible in prayer? A voice that speaks to all men and women everywhere. A rock steady voice that has spoken the truth for eternity.

We are supposed to know the truth. The truth will be known before the resur/rapt so that all will have a clear choice, Accept Jesus or reject the salvation that is freely given.

There will be no planet left except fire after the resur/rapt.

I take the Bible at its word. Daniel states that it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way. Therefore they are closed until the end. There are eschatolical scriptures that are contained in the Gospels and Epistles. They are plainer to understand. But there are not a lot of them.

 

[abcdef]

I take the Bible at its word. Daniel states that it is closed until the end times. Revelation is written the same way. Therefore they are closed until the end. There are eschatolical scriptures that are contained in the Gospels and Epistles. They are plainer to understand. But there are not a lot of them.

Brother Endoscopy,

So which part of Daniel do you not understand?

 

[abcdef]

Addendum
Matthew 24 isn't about 70AD except for the prophecy about the temple.

The 70 ad destruction is the main subject of the passage.

After telling them not one stone would be left on another of the temple complex the disciples then asked Jesus about end times. The rest of the chapter is devoted to answering that question.

The end of the 33 ad temple age.

End times is still in the future.

We are in the last age now. When Jesus comes for the kingdom Rev 11:15, this planet is destroyed in fire Rev 20:9.

Why don't some people not notice this seperation in the text?

Because there is not really a separation there?

Jesus is speaking to 4 apostles only, Mk 13. The persecution passage is applicable to only them and could only be fulfilled by them. Any application to someone future to that time would be taking the passage out of context.

The parallel passage of Lk 21:20-24, proves that this is not future because they use swords for weapons (they use guns, bombs, and missiles now).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Tanakh,

I am not going to respond to all of the errors in your post, but I going to show you one glaring error:

I know you and others won't believe me, but much of the book of Revelation is about God's judgment on apostate Israel, Egypt and Sodom.

You are correct in that, I do not believe that Israel is Babylon the Great. First of all, the woman of Rev.12 is positively identified in scripture as the nation Israel. And that because the woman is said to be clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars. These symbols are the same ones used in Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-10. According to Rev.12, The woman flees out into the desert to a place where is she (Israel) is cared for from the middle of the seven years to the end until Christ comes.

In addition, we have Mystery, Babylon the Great, destroyed by the beast and the ten kings sometime during the last 3 1/2 years , so much so that scripture says that no one will ever be able to inhabit that city again. (Rev.18:21-24). That said, Jerusalem/Israel cannot be Babylon the Great, because scripture statues the following:

" When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

The scripture above will take place at the end of the thousand years, where Satan is released from the Abyss. Notice that, those that gathers together are said to "surround the camp of the God's people, the city he loves." The city that He loves of course could be none other than Jerusalem, would demonstrate that there will be people inhabiting Jerusalem all the way up to the end the millennial period. But how can that be if Jerusalem/Israel is Babylon the Great which is destroyed during the last 3 1/2 years of the seven period so that no one can inhabit ever again?

So scripture states that Israel is cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years. And we have Babylon the Great being destroyed so that no one can ever inhabit that city again, which you claim is Jerusalem and its people Israel. Yet as I pointed out, scripture states that the people that Satan gathers at the end of the thousand years will be surround the city that God loves, which can be none other than Jerusalem, which shows that people will be inhabiting Jerusalem even up to the end.

Furthermore, the book of Revelation is the fulfillment of the long prophesied "day of the Lord" when God pours His wrath out upon the entire earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are world-wide judgments and not just restricted to Israel. Obviously you have not done any studies on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, else you would not say that much of the book of Revelation is about God's judgment upon apostate Israel. I'll use a couple of examples: At the culmination of the first four seals a fourth of the earth's (not Israel's) population is killed via war, famine, plagues and by the wild beasts of the earth.

At the sounding of the first trumpet a third of the earth and trees are burned up. A third of the earth is much bigger than Israel.

At the sounding of the second trumpet, a third of the creatures in the oceans are killed and a third of the ships over all the earth are destroyed. How can this be restricted to Israel?

At the sounding of the third trumpet, a third of the rivers and fresh water are contaminated, where many people die from drinking it. It says a third of the rivers and springs of water over all the earth, not a third of Israel's rivers and springs of water.

At the sounding of the fifth trumpet, demonic beings resembling locusts will be released from the Abyss and will torment the entire inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion. The only group protected are those 144,000 who will have been sealed on their foreheads. So gain, how is this plague restricted to Israel?

At the fourth bowl judgment, the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, searing them. The sun affects the entire earth. So how can this plague be only affect Israel?

At the pouring out of the seventh bowl, the greatest earthquake since mankind has been on the earth will take place, causing all of the mountains and islands world-wide, will not be found. Again, how is that only affecting Israel?

You sir, do not know what you are talking about when you say that "much of the book of Revelation is about Gods judgement on apostate Israel," as I just proved to you by listing the scriptures that it involves the entire earth and all of its inhabitants. Regarding Israel, this is what scripture has to say about her salvation:

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Just as the scripture above states, the Gentiles were given over to disobedience so that God could have mercy on us. In the same way, Israel has been given over to disobedience so that they too may receive God's mercy.

God is about ready to initiate that last seven years. But before He picks up where He left off with His people Israel and the pouring out of His wrath upon all the inhabitants of the earth, the Lord is going to appear in the air and gather His church. Anyone who is not prepared that day will close on them like a trap and they will not escape, but will be exposed to all that is going to take place during that time.

Anyone who is any enemy of Israel, are enemies of God.

 

[PlainWord]

You ignore the highlighted verse in AMPC translation that says an unidentified future time. Try to look at what I post. Many times I respond with a Biblical quote. Why do you ignore that scripture??

I'm trying to help you brother. I'm not ignoring your scripture. I already addressed your point. Now please respond to my question. Here's the passage again in full context from Mat 23 (KJV). Please see the parts I underlined and please answer this question. I will make it a multiple choice question so that you can respond easier.

Q) In the below passage from Mat 23, which generation is Jesus talking about?

a. His generation (i.e. the one alive when He was on earth)
b. A generation between His and ours
c. Our generation, in the 21st century
d. A generation future to us, as in 22nd century to end of the planet earth

Mat 23:

[SUP]33 [/SUP]Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

 

[PlainWord]

Brother Endoscopy,

I have another question for you. Others can answer too, perhaps Brother AHW wants to weight in. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm trying to understand how you view some of these passages so that I can help you.

Please see this passage from Mat 3 (NKJV):

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Q) What wrath was John the Baptist talking about?

a. The destruction of Jerusalem and temple in 70 AD
b. The Crusades
c. The Holocaust under Nazi Germany
d. A future (to us) great tribulation effecting the entire planet

 

[PlainWord]

End,

Now let's look at a passage from Luke 19 (NKJV).

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, [SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.​

[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”​

​

Q) Which best describes the enemies mentioned above?

a. The Babylonians of the 6th century BC
b. The Greeks under Antiochus IV Epiphanes
c. The Romans under Titus in 70 AD
d. Some future evil country sent to destroy today's Israel

 

[PlainWord]

Addendum
Matthew 24 isn't about 70AD except for the prophecy about the temple. After telling them not one stone would be left on another of the temple complex the disciples then asked Jesus about end times. The rest of the chapter is devoted to answering that question. End times is still in the future. Why don't some people not notice this seperation in the text?

So, to be clear, you see a multi-thousand year break where I placed the red line below? You do realize that Jesus doesn't say anything about a gap, right?

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

-------------------------------------Multi- Thousand year Break--------------------------

​

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

So you are suggesting that none of the signs listed below the break line applied to the disciples and their days, rather they all apply to us or some time in our future? Is that what you think? Now many of these signs could apply to any generation like wars and famines, but some of these signs are very specific such as

they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you

​

That literally happened to the disciples, right? Jesus says, "(they) will kill YOU!!"

There is another sign worth mentioning, and it's the last one, "

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Many take this to mean the entire planet will hear the Gospel translated into every language and dialect on earth so that every living person would have heard the message before the planet is destroyed. But what of the 2,000 years before the Gospel was available in every language? What of those who died in remote parts of the planet who never heard it? So, what are we to make of this last sign?

Here's the instruction given from Mk 16:15:

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
​

Here's what Paul says some 30 years later from Col 1:23:

​

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

Paul is saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. But how can that be? Nobody went to China, or Australia or Russia or the Americas. But they did go out into all of the Roman Empire which they called, "the known world."

Sometimes we can learn as much from what is NOT in a passage as we do from what is in a passage. For Jesus to be discussing an event future to us, he left out a lot of really big signs. No mention of the Jewish holocaust. No mention of cars, trains, skyscrapers, nor airplanes, nor rocket ships or trips to the Moon. Nothing about computers or the internet. Nothing about nuclear weapons. He doesn't even say, "You know what guys, the end is so far away giving you signs would be meaningless."

​

​

 

[Endoscopy]

So, to be clear, you see a multi-thousand year break where I placed the red line below? You do realize that Jesus doesn't say anything about a gap, right?

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

-------------------------------------Multi- Thousand year Break--------------------------

​

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

So you are suggesting that none of the signs listed below the break line applied to the disciples and their days, rather they all apply to us or some time in our future? Is that what you think? Now many of these signs could apply to any generation like wars and famines, but some of these signs are very specific such as

they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you

​

That literally happened to the disciples, right? Jesus says, "(they) will kill YOU!!"

There is another sign worth mentioning, and it's the last one, "

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Many take this to mean the entire planet will hear the Gospel translated into every language and dialect on earth so that every living person would have heard the message before the planet is destroyed. But what of the 2,000 years before the Gospel was available in every language? What of those who died in remote parts of the planet who never heard it? So, what are we to make of this last sign?

Here's the instruction given from Mk 16:15:

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
​

Here's what Paul says some 30 years later from Col 1:23:

​

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

Paul is saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. But how can that be? Nobody went to China, or Australia or Russia or the Americas. But they did go out into all of the Roman Empire which they called, "the known world."

Sometimes we can learn as much from what is NOT in a passage as we do from what is in a passage. For Jesus to be discussing an event future to us, he left out a lot of really big signs. No mention of the Jewish holocaust. No mention of cars, trains, skyscrapers, nor airplanes, nor rocket ships or trips to the Moon. Nothing about computers or the internet. Nothing about nuclear weapons. He doesn't even say, "You know what guys, the end is so far away giving you signs would be meaningless."

​

​

Wrong question foolish one. Note that in verses 1 and 2 they areare near the temple.

Verse 3 has Him on the Mount of Olives answering a question his disciples asked about His second coming and the end of the age. His answer is then about end times when He returns. He prophesied the following and following that is Isaiah prophecy.

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Isaiah 24 AMPC


21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

 

[preston39]

.....Yes, and in none of them is the literal destruction of the literal heaven and planet earth discussed. .......

Please don't doubt me on this. The wrath of Christ came in 70 AD and that was the end of "the heavens and earth" in this context. There is no future prediction of the end of literal heaven and earth.

P....,

As i RECALL.....the earth is to be ...cleansed...at te end times...not destroyed.


I must doubt you on your 70th conclusion...because it is not scripture.