Does God Sever Fellowship With Us When We Sin?

[reneweddaybyday]

'Carnal' is a good term to use.

But believers don't have an 'old man' anymore. We have an old self, our old ways of doing things in our bodies that we are growing out of, but the old man, the old way of thinking in our innermost part, our old mindset, is dead and gone. Now we have the mind of Christ. This also is explained in Romans 8.

The following is written to born again believers:

Ephesians 4:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts


If believers do not have the 'old man' anymore, there would be no need for God to tell us to put off the old man.

The flesh is rendered powerless because the old mindset of sin is gone in us by virtue of the presence of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean we don't sin. It means our deepest desire in our innermost part is to not sin, whereas before we were born again our deepest desire in our innermost part was to sin.

On the one hand, you claim that the "old mindset of sin is gone in us by virtue of the presence of the Holy Spirit."

And on the other hand you claim "That doesn't mean we don't sin"

To me, the sin we commit is when we fail to "put off" the "old man" which, according to Eph 4:22 is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

The reason we sin is because we are drawn away from that place of safety where we will not sin (the "new man").

In Eph 4:22 the "old man" is referred to as the former conversation — the manner of life in which we lived before we were born again.

As we continue to live life in accordance with that "new man", we will not sin because the "new man" is after God created in righteousness and true holiness ( Eph 4:24).


In Rom 7:24, Paul writes O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

the body of this death is the "old man", which we are instructed to "put off". And Rom 7:25 gives the answer as to Who will deliver us from this body of death — the Jesus Christ our Lord. He is the One in Whom we overcome the lusts of our flesh. As we abide in Him — But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.


That is the only way I know of that we are able to be victorious over the "old man", the "flesh", the "lusts".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I feel like an old man some days.

me too.(especially after double shifts)

Just a reminder of better days to come eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him (1 Cor 2:9).

 

[dcontroversal]

You are a bully. Walk away and prove you are not.

Are you 15? Try again....Just because I adamently oppose your false, non-biblical dogma does not mean I am a bully and to be frank....we were all assurd of the fact that you were some great theological swordsman that was gonna set us all straight.....the reality on the ground is that you espouse and peddle a dogma that comes no where near the truth.......

 

[joaniemarie]

Here is what HELPS Word-studies has to say about sarx:

4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.

HELPS Word-studies
Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.​

The way I understand it is that we do the sinning when we allow the lusts of our flesh to rule over us.

The only way I know of overcome the lusts of the flesh is by following the instruction in Rom 13:14 – But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I think there is also a question we each have considered and that is how do we "put on the Lord Jesus Christ?" How does that play out in our day to day lives causing us to make no provision for the flesh? Do we have help in this putting on of Jesus?

Yes., we do. And that is to walk in the spirit.


It's also interesting that many of us don't consider that when we are making a provision for the flesh.. we can be doing good things like going to church or working or giving to the poor and yet still be doing those things from the power and ability of our flesh.

The idea I believe is being presented there in "Helps word study" is self dependence. Trying to accomplish spiritual "Jesus things" by carnal means. That is a work of the flesh and is actually against allowing Jesus to show up in our lives. It looks good on the surface but we can be far from God.

 

[joaniemarie]

Didn’t Jesus say His people will be known by their fruits?

Matt. 7:16-18 “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

Are those displaying the wrong fruits going to inherit the kingdom?

1 Cor. 6:9-11 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

Gal. 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

When I read that I'm reminded that it also says "AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU" Wow., how amazing is that!!? How are they not any longer that way? What happened? What makes God see them differently?

 

[joaniemarie]

The Bible is very clear about this. God shuts himself off from fellowship with the unrepentant believer. Look what Malachi had to say about it:


13“This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. 14“Yet you say, ‘For what reason?’ Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "-Malachi 2:13-14


Yeah, I know, all of you are thinking, "That's old testament! That's old testament! It's different in the New Testament!"

Is it? Let's see:


"live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered."-1 Peter 3:7


There are other passages in the NT that show us that we have to be living at peace with God and those around us for God to hear our prayers. When you don't obey God in loving others your prayers get shut off like a phone getting disconnected. You may still have phone service but the line of communication has been broken somewhere along the line.

I understand what you're saying. But have to ask you to consider this; how do we go before the Father? What makes us able to go before God? Is it because we did well that day as believers? Did we pass the behavior test and are now worthy? What makes us worthy? That is the question.

I've discovered just as when we were born again 'not of corruptible seed but incorruptable" we are NOW also able to go before the Father in that same by; through Christ. There is NO other WAY.

1 Peter 1:23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Since by your obedience to the Truth through the [Holy] Spirit you have purified your hearts for the sincere affection of the brethren, [see that you] love one another fervently from a pure heart.
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal [SUP][a][/SUP]origin ([SUP][b][/SUP]seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

Since means because NOW you have Christ you have been regenerated - born again. His seed remains and because of that new birth., you are now worthy before God because you go IN Christ as a new creation. Not in your own righteousness but IN His.


We enter in by His righteousness and not our own. That is not a lazy man's obedience it's a recognition of giving to God the things that are God's. It's the new and living way!

 

[joaniemarie]

Could you not read the scriptures in the post? The outcomes, of not bearing fruit, are listed. You find yourself doing those things, you are in deep trouble.

Oh, I believe in osas: but it does not give us a license to sin. If you are doing any of the things listed, you are no longer walking after the spirit. Somewhere down the line you turned away; God didn't drop you.

Oh, I am indeed dead to this world. If dead, then not subject to the things I used to do. I want to constantly please God; but I find a fleshly, sinful nature still present. That is why we have to daily take up our cross deny ourselves and follow Jesus' example.

I believe it's a matter of "reckoning" It's a mind set. We HAVE the mind of Christ but we have to choose to "reckon" it to be so by faith.

For sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.



I love how this is about being set free from the "law of sin and death" It has occurred... we WERE set free IN Christ when we were born again. NOW we have to walk IN that freedom by reckoning it to be so by FAITH. Faith sees what is not visible to the human eye or human emotions even. Can't ever go by our emotions or human reasoning.

Romans 6:11
[SUP]
10 [/SUP]For by the death He died, He died to sin [ending His relation to it] once for all; and the life that He lives, He is living to God [in unbroken fellowship with Him].
[SUP]

11 [/SUP]Even so consider yourselves also dead to sin and your relation to it broken, but alive to God [living in unbroken fellowship with Him] in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]

12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore rule as king in your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies, to make you yield to its cravings and be subject to its lusts and evil passions.
[SUP]

13 [/SUP]Do not continue offering or yielding your bodily members [and [SUP][a][/SUP]faculties] to sin as instruments (tools) of wickedness. But offer and yield yourselves to God as though you have been raised from the dead to [perpetual] life, and your bodily members [and [SUP][b][/SUP]faculties] to God, presenting them as implements of righteousness.
[SUP]

14 [/SUP]For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of God’s favor and mercy].

 

[Ralph-]

I understand what you're saying. But have to ask you to consider this; how do we go before the Father? What makes us able to go before God? Is it because we did well that day as believers? Did we pass the behavior test and are now worthy? What makes us worthy? That is the question.

I've discovered just as when we were born again 'not of corruptible seed but incorruptable" we are NOW also able to go before the Father in that same by; through Christ. There is NO other WAY.

1 Peter 1:23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Since by your obedience to the Truth through the [Holy] Spirit you have purified your hearts for the sincere affection of the brethren, [see that you] love one another fervently from a pure heart.
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal [SUP][a][/SUP]origin ([SUP][b][/SUP]seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.

Since means because NOW you have Christ you have been regenerated - born again. His seed remains and because of that new birth., you are now worthy before God because you go IN Christ as a new creation. Not in your own righteousness but IN His.


We enter in by His righteousness and not our own. That is not a lazy man's obedience it's a recognition of giving to God the things that are God's. It's the new and living way!

I think you may be confusing salvation in God with active fellowship with God.

The justification necessary for salvation has no condition of work attached to it, just the condition of trusting in Christ. On the other hand, fellowship with God is conditioned on you living for him. The benefit of the Holy Spirit you have in salvation is conditional on you living in obedience, particularly the obedience to treat people well. You can't have the benefit of the Holy Spirit that's inside of you if you choose to live in strife and self absorption.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you done yet?

40 years ago, based on the fact Jesus said it is finished.

 

[gb9]

I think you may be confusing salvation in God with active fellowship with God.

The justification necessary for salvation has no condition of work attached to it, just the condition of trusting in Christ. On the other hand, fellowship with God is conditioned on you living for him. The benefit of the Holy Spirit you have in salvation is conditional on you living in obedience, particularly the obedience to treat people well. You can't have the benefit of the Holy Spirit that's inside of you if you choose to live in strife and self absorption.

I think , nah, I know you are confusing theology with your opinions .

 

[Ralph-]

The following is written to born again believers:

Ephesians 4:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts


If believers do not have the 'old man' anymore, there would be no need for God to tell us to put off the old man.





On the one hand, you claim that the "old mindset of sin is gone in us by virtue of the presence of the Holy Spirit."

And on the other hand you claim "That doesn't mean we don't sin"

To me, the sin we commit is when we fail to "put off" the "old man" which, according to Eph 4:22 is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

The reason we sin is because we are drawn away from that place of safety where we will not sin (the "new man").

In Eph 4:22 the "old man" is referred to as the former conversation — the manner of life in which we lived before we were born again.

As we continue to live life in accordance with that "new man", we will not sin because the "new man" is after God created in righteousness and true holiness ( Eph 4:24).


In Rom 7:24, Paul writes O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

the body of this death is the "old man", which we are instructed to "put off". And Rom 7:25 gives the answer as to Who will deliver us from this body of death — the Jesus Christ our Lord. He is the One in Whom we overcome the lusts of our flesh. As we abide in Him — But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.


That is the only way I know of that we are able to be victorious over the "old man", the "flesh", the "lusts".

The confusion comes from the early NIV using the term 'sin nature'. Which is not in the Bible but was their interpretation of 'flesh' in various passages (the newer NIV's don't use the term anymore).

In regard to having a sin nature, that is GONE. That part of you in your innermost part that programmed you to love and follow after sin and resist righteousness is gone. What remains is your unredeemed flesh body. So sin now comes from your body (your flesh, your thoughts, your feelings), not from a mind set on sin that you no longer have.

And as joaniemarie says, by faith we accept this truth and then act accordingly, by faith. That is how you overcome sin. You remind yourself that God removed the mindset of sin from deep within you that made you a sinner by nature and replaced it with a mind set on the Spirit. This is not your conscious mind. This is the very innermost programming that determines who and what you are by nature (the thing that makes a pig act like a pig, and a dog act like a dog, and a sinner act like a sinner). Christ has removed that old 'man'. Now the only old man, the old self, the old you that you struggle with is your flesh body.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In regard to having a sin nature, that is GONE. That part of you in your innermost part that programmed you to love and follow after sin and resist righteousness is gone. What remains is your unredeemed flesh body. So sin now comes from your body (your flesh, your thoughts, your feelings), not from a mind set on sin that you no longer have.

That's what the hyper-grace doctrine teaches.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And as joaniemarie says, by faith we accept this truth and then act accordingly, by faith. That is how you overcome sin. You remind yourself that God removed the mindset of sin from deep within you that made you a sinner by nature and replaced it with a mind set on the Spirit. This is not your conscious mind. This is the very innermost programming that determines who and what you are by nature (the thing that makes a pig act like a pig, and a dog act like a dog, and a sinner act like a sinner). Christ has removed that old 'man'. Now the only old man, the old self, the old you that you struggle with is your flesh body.

That's not what I do at all. I enter into GOD's presence by acknowledging my sinful nature, and am greeted by mercy.

 

[Ralph-]

I think , nah, I know you are confusing theology with your opinions .

Did the Israelites cease being the nation of God's people when they were cast from the abundance of the Promised Land because of their disobedience? No. They continued to be in relationship with God, but what they lost was the benefits of that relationship.

Yes, some were eventually lost and never returned to the abundance of God and were cast out altogether, but the point is the punishment for disobedience is that you lose the benefits of the Holy Spirit you have inside of you. You lose the joy and peace and power and richness of your relationship and contact with God when you don't live for him. Salvation does not end when you disobey. You have to deny Christ in unbelief altogether for that to happen. What happens is you lose the blessedness of the Holy Spirit when you disobey.

The most obvious proof of this is the scriptures that tell us our prayers are shut off from God when we do not live for him.

 

[Ralph-]

That's not what I do at all. I enter into GOD's presence by acknowledging my sinful nature, and am greeted by mercy.

You do that by faith. In that same faith we acknowledge and agree with God that sin does not have dominion over us anymore and we rise up in power over that sin. Romans 6 speaks of this reckoning. By faith we count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. That is where you find the mercy and power of God in overcoming sin. It is the confession of faith that says, "sin, you do not own me anymore! God said so." And so, as you believe, so it is.

 

[Ralph-]

That's what the hyper-grace doctrine teaches.

What hypergrace does is use this truth to justify living in sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What hypergrace does is use this truth to justify living in sin.

That "truth" is HG's foundational error.

 

[Ralph-]

That "truth" is HG's foundational error.

I actually thought you'd recognize my references to Romans 6 & 7 teachings.

 

[wanderer6059]

I think you may be confusing salvation in God with active fellowship with God.

The justification necessary for salvation has no condition of work attached to it, just the condition of trusting in Christ. On the other hand, fellowship with God is conditioned on you living for him. The benefit of the Holy Spirit you have in salvation is conditional on you living in obedience, particularly the obedience to treat people well. You can't have the benefit of the Holy Spirit that's inside of you if you choose to live in strife and self absorption.

Our ability to have fellowship with Him is based solely on the righteousness we have in Christ. Literally righteousness is fellowship, and since our righteous nature will never leave us then neither will His side of fellowship.

 

[Ralph-]

we were all assurd of the fact that you were some great theological swordsman that was gonna set us all straight

AllenW said that, not me.

I know it provoked you, and so in the Spirit of Christ can we agree to let it go and never bring it up again?