Loss of salvation.

[Ralph-]

Most of what I teach comes from my personal relationship with Holy Spirit and Scripture. I'm fluent in Scripture, not hyper-grace teachings. I always have Scripture to support what I believe. I don't just listen to other people and make it up. You have your viewpoints which I believe are not completely Scriptural, but I'm not going to tell you that you're influenced by someone else. What you believe is what you believe. I think you're way off base, but that's okay, God gave you free will and a unique understanding than I have.

Once I got out of my doctrinal box(es) I realized how influenced we the church have become by the popular teachings of the day.

Just as the church has been heavily influenced by Calvinist thought, even though some are not Calvinist, so it is today that the church is being influenced in their thinking by Hypergrace doctrine without actually being Hypergrace believers. The sad part being I'm seeing this twisted mix of both Calvinist and Hypergrace teachings influencing believers doctrinal stances. So you find competing beliefs in the same person. Very difficult to deal with in a person. When you deal with one aspect of what they believe they flee to the competing argument in their doctrine for safety. Then they run back to the other argument in another discussion.

 

[Cee]

You are saying, a person is saved as long as they continue to believe. I get it. And I'm saying a person who does believe, will continue to believe, because the proof they have overcome is their faith. Our faith shows we've already overcome.

"What non-OSAS means to people like me and chester is the believer can stop believing"

But what you didn't explain is what "stop believing" means. And you don't seem to think continuing to believe is in fact, trying to keep our salvation. Because it's God starting it, but then you're also saying we need to continue in it. I believe you are minimizing Scriptures that say, God is both the author and the finisher of our faith. Because if we need to "continue in faith" in our own ability, WE become the finisher of our own faith.

You could say, well a person needs to continue to love the Lord, but Scripture also says, the more we know His love for us, the more we are filled for love for Him. And it is by getting our sins forgiven that we love Him.

You could also say, well a person might no longer want the ways of God, but Scripture teaches that people are reborn in true righteousness and holiness. And they are dead to sin. We have a new nature that we partake in.

So you might be thinking, well then why does Scripture teach people not to sin? First off, the fact Scripture does teach people they shouldn't sin, shows that true believers still do sin. Because Scripture was written to true believers. Second off, new believers don't understand what Christ has done, who He is, and a myriad of different things that are covered in "discipleship". Scripture calls it growing up in Christ.

Here's a Scripture for you: "those who believe in Me have passed from death to life."

This is a present reality. We are a new creation. The old has gone and the new is here. It's pretty clear cut. Christ became sin for us, so we could become the righteousness of God. If we don't agree with the Scriptures that teach what it looks like to now be born again, we won't come up with proper conclusions. Many people are still seeing believers through a "sinner" lens even though Scripture calls us saints. And so people are still trying to be holy, instead of realizing they ARE holy. And the moment you say, we don't need to try to be holy, they hear we can sin all we want. Well maybe that's what they would do because they aren't truly transformed? Just a thought.

And then it gets even more warped in people's minds, so let me address this now just because we don't need to be afraid of sin doesn't mean we should sin. In fact, Paul when he explains that we are free from sin, answers this question, by saying GOD FORBID, how can we who have died to sin continue in it any longer? So the idea that teaching people they are free from sin that they are free to sin, is as old as time, but still completely incorrect.

Grace is offensive. Even in Scripture times it caused people who were ensnared to religion to be extremely jealous. So much so, that they crucified most of the disciples. Why? Because they came in teaching freedom. And people couldn't handle it. Because in their heart of hearts they still believed people needed to be controlled. Because the fruit of self-control is a spiritual idea that only spiritual people can understand. I'm not saying you believe these things of course, but this is definitely what I see a lot of. People completely misrepresenting the idea of transformative grace.

Yet Paul says the Kingdom of God isn't simply talk, but power. Yet when people believe truly in that power, they claim it's us who don't "understand" Scripture. No, I simply believe it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Once I got out of my doctrinal box(es) I realized how influenced we the church have become by the popular teachings of the day.

Just as the church has been heavily influenced by Calvinist thought, even though some are not Calvinist, so it is today that the church is being influenced in their thinking by Hypergrace doctrine without actually being Hypergrace believers. The sad part being I'm seeing this twisted mix of both Calvinist and Hypergrace teachings influencing believers doctrinal stances. So you find competing beliefs in the same person. Very difficult to deal with in a person. When you deal with one aspect of what they believe they flee to the competing argument in their doctrine for safety. Then they run back to the other argument in another discussion.

LOL it's even influenced you, and you don't know it. You were espousing identity faith the other day as being truth.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus wasn't, simply in the next verse Jesus explains what born again means.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

You can't simply ignore context because you don't like what it teaches. I have shown you at least 5 different ways about being born again, a new creation, and many more, but you don't seem to want to see it. And I don't at all agree with your viewpoint. So I don't see life in this anymore. So, let's agree to disagree.

How can you say I'm ignoring context when being begotten by the spirit is being begotten from above? Man's spirit isn't born again, it's made alive (regenerated) by the holy spirit which descends from above.

 

[Ralph-]

LOL it's even influenced you, and you don't know it. You were espousing identity faith the other day as being truth.

Tell me what that is and I will tell you if I have been rightly or wrongly influenced by it. Never heard of it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Most of what I teach comes from my personal relationship with Holy Spirit and Scripture. I'm fluent in Scripture, not hyper-grace teachings. I always have Scripture to support what I believe. I don't just listen to other people and make it up. You have your viewpoints which I believe are not completely Scriptural, but I'm not going to tell you that you're influenced by someone else. What you believe is what you believe. I think you're way off base, but that's okay, God gave you free will and a unique understanding than I have.

I won't believe you until you say you did not study hyper-grace teachings.

 

[Cee]

How can you say I'm ignoring context when being begotten by the spirit is being begotten from above? Man's spirit isn't born again, it's made alive (regenerated) by the holy spirit which descends from above.

Because the Scripture says Spirit gives birth to spirit. I.E. It's born. Being reborn is dying to Christ and being reborn in Him. This exactly what the sacrament of baptism shows. We are dunked in water (death) and pulled out (reborn). And I showed you in Titus 3:5 that we are regenerated, this word, means born again. re - generated. It's basically taken from Genesis (Birth) and Re (Again).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Tell me what that is and I will tell you if I have been rightly or wrongly influenced by it. Never heard of it.

Identity faith is placing faith in an identity. An example is forming an identity in the mind that believers are the righteousness of GOD, and then placing faith in that identity. This only works by discarding any thought that contradicts that identity. This process is called metanoia (repentance) in gnosticism and hyper-grace (maybe free grace too; not sure yet). An example of discarding an idea that contradicts the righteousness-of-GOD identity is denying the existence of an unrighteous nature, which you did in this post:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-fellowship-us-when-we-sin-3.html#post3579367

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Because the Scripture says Spirit gives birth to spirit. I.E. It's born. Being reborn is dying to Christ and being reborn in Him. This exactly what the sacrament of baptism shows. We are dunked in water (death) and pulled out (reborn). And I showed you in Titus 3:5 that we are regenerated, this word, means born again. re - generated. It's basically taken from Genesis (Birth) and Re (Again).

It's not a literal birth. GOD begets us by placing his seed in us that makes our existing spirit alive from being dead.

 

[Cee]

Ephesians 5:8 For you were at one time darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live like children of light.

You were this, but you're not anymore. This is who you are. So live like it.

Exactly, what I've said in countless posts. Can't make it anymore clear than that.

 

[Ralph-]

An example of discarding an idea that contradicts the righteousness-of-GOD identity is denying the existence of an unrighteous nature, which you did in this post:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-fellowship-us-when-we-sin-3.html#post3579367

It's fine if you want to think the flesh body itself is the old nature. It's not a hill worth dying for. (But it could mean a lot to the person struggling with a besetting sin.....read on).


From Romans 8 I see the new man that we have become as being the change from the mind set on the flesh, as we used to be, to us now having the mind set on the Spirit. The flesh is the same old man he always has been. But since the mind deep inside, deeper than even my conscious mind, is now in union with the Spirit it is now set on the Spirit. That's the new me.

That's the new nature driving me now........I mean when I let it. As for that old nature deep within, the mind set on the flesh.......gone. By virtue of the Spirit in union with my spirit I no longer have the mind set on the flesh. It's set on the Spirit now. Don't let your flesh body deceive you (and cause you to sin). There's a new nature, a new, transformed mind inside of you running the show now. The old one is gone, the new is here:

"if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:a The old has gone, the new is here! "-2 Corinthians 5:17

As for your flesh? Yeah, he's still here. He's the same ol' flesh he always was. But his days are numbered. Until then, remind him that he is crucified in Christ by the power of God's Spirit when he starts barking orders like an overbearing husband you are no longer married to.

 

[LW97]

[FONT=&quot]Some say that "once saved, always saved" encourages one to live in sin because if we know we cannot be lost then we have no incentive for living a holy life. On the contrary, love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life; and surely the greater the salvation one has received, the more love and gratitude there will be. So to know one is secure for eternity gives a higher motive for living a good life than the fear of losing one's salvation if one sins![/FONT]


[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[LW97]

It's fine if you want to think the flesh body itself is the old nature. It's not a hill worth dying for. (But it could mean a lot to the person struggling with a besetting sin.....read on).


From Romans 8 I see the new man that we have become as being the change from our mind set on the flesh, as we used to be, to us now having our mind set on the Spirit. The flesh is the same old man he always has been. But since my mind deep inside, deeper than even my conscious mind, is now in union with the Spirit it is now set on the Spirit. That's the new me.

That's the new nature driving me now........I mean when I let it. As for that old nature deep within.......gone. By virtue of the Spirit in union with my spirit I no longer have the mind set on the flesh. It's set on the Spirit now. Don't let your flesh body deceive you (and cause you to sin). There's a new nature, a new mind inside of you running the show now. The old one is gone, the new is here:

"if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:a The old has gone, the new is here! "-2 Corinthians 5:17

As for your flesh? Yeah, he's still here. He's the same ol' flesh he always was. But his days are numbered. Until then, remind him that he is crucified in Christ by the power of God's Spirit when he starts barking orders like an overbearing husband you are no longer married to.

The verse you posted also confirms eternal security because we also had to pass back to the Old Me to lose our salvation

 

[Ralph-]

Some say that "once saved, always saved" encourages one to live in sin because if we know we cannot be lost then we have no incentive for living a holy life.

That's what I see. The 'once saved always saved' church proves how that doctrine removes the incentive to live for God. Especially now that the new 'once saved always saved' says you don't even have to continue to believe to be saved.

On the contrary, love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life; and surely the greater the salvation one has received, the more love and gratitude there will be.

Of course this is true, but to say 'once saved always saved' doctrine is what solicits this love is demonstrably not true. Just look around you. It's not true at all. It's had the opposite effect. If anything, it has produced a passionate lip service love for God in the church and not the love John speaks about in 1 John 3 (love in action, not just words).

"Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."-1 John 3:18

Thank you, Calvin, for leading the church into a doctrine that has made a church full of people gushing with words of love and praise for you because they think they can't lose their salvation but who have no love in actual deeds because they think they don't have to do that.

So to know one is secure for eternity gives a higher motive for living a good life than the fear of losing one's salvation if one sins!

Get it straight. You don't lose your salvation for sinning. You lose your salvation for no longer trusting in Christ. But you will certainly lose God's grace for holy living and you will go back to your sins if you stop trusting in Christ.

It is the underlying return to not relying on Christ anymore that removes God's grace of forgiveness from you and causes you to once again be condemned by your sins.

 

[Ralph-]

The verse you posted also confirms eternal security because we also had to pass back to the Old Me to lose our salvation

....and that happens if we stop trusting in Christ for justification. God removes his Holy Spirit from you and you go back to the old mind set on the flesh.

The Galatians were warned that if they abandoned justification in Christ and, in their case, returned to justification by the law they would become sons of the slave woman and would lose out on the inheritance.

 

[LW97]

....and that happens if we stop trusting in Christ for justification. God removes his Holy Spirit from you and you go back to the old mind set on the flesh.

The Galatians were warned that if they abandoned justification in Christ and, in their case, returned to justification by the law they would become sons of the slave woman and would lose out on the inheritance.

Inheritance is not salvation. We cannot stop trusting in Christ. Faith is given by God. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. It's not just believing some facts in our head.

Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms we can only get saved once.

 

[Ralph-]

Inheritance is not salvation.

Possessing the promise of the Holy Spirit is not salvation?????

We cannot stop trusting in Christ. Faith is given by God. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.

Trusting in Christ, and simply having the faith that something is true are two different things.

We trust in that which God shows us by faith is true. It is quite possible to reject and stop trusting in that which God shows us by the power of faith--the power of knowing--to be true. But why argue such a meaningless point. The real point is, whether a person stops believing, or never really believed to begin with, they are lost either way. The point here is to believe and keep believing. That is the admonition of scripture.

It's not just believing some facts in our head.

Believing implies trusting, not just knowing or agreeing that something is true. Every unbeliever who rejects the gospel knows the gospel really is true because the Holy Spirit tells them it's true. That's the definition of faith (knowing something is true that you can't see). But they have chosen to not trust in what God has shown them through faith to be really true.

Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms we can only get saved once.

Which is exactly why I say you can only lose your salvation one time. Salvation certainly is not a revolving door. You get it and keep it through your continued believing/trusting, or you lose it forever.

 

[dcontroversal]

Inheritance is not salvation. We cannot stop trusting in Christ. Faith is given by God. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. It's not just believing some facts in our head.

Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms we can only get saved once.

AMEN....his view totally devalues Christ and places salvation upon on our own ability to keep our self saved....JESUS is the beginner, finisher of our faith and WILL complete that work of faith HE BEGAN....WE are KEPT by the power of GOD....those who peddle the loss of salvation like a street organ player in Bombay with a dancing monkey state clearly that the POWER of GOD fails and Christ is an inept liar that cannot finish and COMPLETE that which he has begun......NO MATTER how they try to twist it....

 

[Ralph-]

...WE are KEPT by the power of GOD...

"through faith"-1 Peter 1:5. You keep leaving that part off of the verse.

It is through your believing, by faith, that you are kept by the power of God for the day of salvation that is coming. Stop believing and you lose God's power that keeps you.


God doesn't do our believing for us. But he does give us the faith to believe and lot's of encouragement to keep believing. That's why we can't boast in our believing as if it was a work of merit that earns salvation. Besides Paul plainly said our believing/trusting was not a work that earned salvation. He contrasted believing with doing work to earn salvation. Believing is the very thing we are to do to be saved. Stop doing that and you stop being saved.

If you want to argue that believers can't stop believing, then fine. The important thing is that we agree that the unbeliever, whether he never really believed to begin with or stopped believing along the way, is lost either way. And that unbelief is signified by the unchanged/unchanging life. Those are the take away points that matter. 'Once saved always saved' is a hideous distraction from what really counts.


Let's review: What counts is that you are presently believing, and that you know for sure you're presently believing unto salvation by the fact that you are living a changed and changing life in ever-increasing righteousness to God. That is how you know you are safe in the security of Christ's infallible sacrifice and ministry in heaven interceding on your behalf before the Father.

 

[dcontroversal]

"through faith"-1 Peter 1:5. You keep leaving that part off of the verse.

It is through your believing, by faith, that you are kept by the power of God for the day of salvation that is coming. Stop believing and you lose God's power that keeps you.


God doesn't do our believing for us. But he does give us the faith to believe and lot's of encouragement to keep believing. That's why we can't boast in our believing as if it was a work of merit that earns salvation. Besides Paul plainly said our believing/trusting was not a work that earned salvation. He contrasted believing with doing work to earn salvation. Believing is the very thing we are to do to be saved. Stop doing that and you stop being saved.

If you want to argue that believers can't stop believing, then fine. The important thing is that we agree that the unbeliever, whether he never really believed to begin with or stopped believing along the way, is lost either way. And that unbelief is signified by the unchanged/unchanging life. Those are the take away points that matter. 'Once saved always saved' is a hideous distraction from what really counts.


Let's review: What counts is that you are presently believing, and that you know for sure you're presently believing unto salvation by the fact that you are living a changed and changing life in righteousness to God. That is how you know you are safe in the security of Christ's infallible sacrifice and ministry in heaven interceding on your behalf before the Father.

I leave nothing off.....faith that JESUS began, finishes and COMPLETES<-----this is what you devalue, leave off and chunk under the bus by your false, anti-biblical stance.......