Baptism and holy spirit
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The examples in the bible refute the common attempts to limit "when" the holy ghost is given.
Do you think it comes immediately upon belief? There are biblical examples where that isn't the case.
Do you think it comes immediately upon baptism? There are biblical examples where that isn't the case.
Do you think it comes immediately upon [insert your favorite doctrine here]? Let's pass that doctrine through the examples given in the bible and see if it stands.
My personal thoughts as to WHY people try to make the "when" limitation is usually one of 2 reasons
1. Ignorance: (which only means they don't know. It's not an insult)
1a) Maybe they don't actually know what the Holy Ghost is, or what it's like when He arrives
1b) Maybe they don't know that the biblical examples show something other than what their church teaches. (that's dangerous if they find it and say so)
2. Pride:
2a) Maybe they're afraid to admit they don't actually know something that they've been told "every believer" should know.
2b) Maybe they're afraid to consider the possibility that not only they themselves might not know, but that perpaps their whole church has been the blind being led by the blind...or something similarly scary. It's just easier to believe otherwise.
2c) Maybe they personally are a proud person and think they can just ignore or discredit the examples given in the bible (as though God made a mistake or didn't know how to give examples that "fit today")
2d) Maybe they're a pastor, elder, spokesperson or official in a church and have been taught it would be "blasphemous" to choose to unashamedly cast off any church doctrine that doesn't match the scriptural examples.
Or maybe they just haven't considered that the bible doesn't specify a "WHEN".
Jesus didn't tell his disciples "WHEN" they would be baptized with the holy ghost...only to tarry until they get it. Perhaps we are to do the same. But that would also mean we'd have to acknowledge our ignorance like they were able to do in Acts 19:2 <--(I love those people) and make ourselves vulnerable to attack (especially from our church buddies who would cry "Doubter! Blasphemer! Destroyer!"
BTW... There's a reason why Nicodemus came to Jesus by night.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Do you think it comes immediately upon belief? There are biblical examples where that isn't the case.
Do you think it comes immediately upon baptism? There are biblical examples where that isn't the case.
Do you think it comes immediately upon [insert your favorite doctrine here]? Let's pass that doctrine through the examples given in the bible and see if it stands.
My personal thoughts as to WHY people try to make the "when" limitation is usually one of 2 reasons
1. Ignorance: (which only means they don't know. It's not an insult)
1a) Maybe they don't actually know what the Holy Ghost is, or what it's like when He arrives
1b) Maybe they don't know that the biblical examples show something other than what their church teaches. (that's dangerous if they find it and say so)
2. Pride:
2a) Maybe they're afraid to admit they don't actually know something that they've been told "every believer" should know.
2b) Maybe they're afraid to consider the possibility that not only they themselves might not know, but that perpaps their whole church has been the blind being led by the blind...or something similarly scary. It's just easier to believe otherwise.
2c) Maybe they personally are a proud person and think they can just ignore or discredit the examples given in the bible (as though God made a mistake or didn't know how to give examples that "fit today")
2d) Maybe they're a pastor, elder, spokesperson or official in a church and have been taught it would be "blasphemous" to choose to unashamedly cast off any church doctrine that doesn't match the scriptural examples.
Or maybe they just haven't considered that the bible doesn't specify a "WHEN".
Jesus didn't tell his disciples "WHEN" they would be baptized with the holy ghost...only to tarry until they get it. Perhaps we are to do the same. But that would also mean we'd have to acknowledge our ignorance like they were able to do in Acts 19:2 <--(I love those people) and make ourselves vulnerable to attack (especially from our church buddies who would cry "Doubter! Blasphemer! Destroyer!"
BTW... There's a reason why Nicodemus came to Jesus by night.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Actually the Bible does specify "when". When is a sinner justified by God's grace? Is it at the moment that he repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ or not? According to Scripture it is at that very moment. And this is also the very moment when God saves that soul and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is multi-faceted, and God does many things at the same time, including the New Birth (regeneration), the forgiveness of sins, the gift of eternal life, the gift of Christ, the gift of the Godhead, the baptism with the Spirit, the baptism by the Spirit, the sealing of the Spirit, the transposition from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of God (and much, much more).
Water baptism FOLLOWS conversion. It is evidence of conversion.
Water baptism FOLLOWS conversion. It is evidence of conversion.
You are pointing out one of the beliefs that is common (and makes sense to our brain) but (I suggest) just doesn't line up with the examples given.
Two things for you to consider.
1. WHY is it so important for you to believe that the Holy Ghost MUST be given at time of initial belief?
2. If you believe that the Holy Ghost MUST be given at time of belief...When did that rule start?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Two things for you to consider.
1. WHY is it so important for you to believe that the Holy Ghost MUST be given at time of initial belief?
2. If you believe that the Holy Ghost MUST be given at time of belief...When did that rule start?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Yes and no ...
the body of Christ is the Spirit-filled church wherein all are baptized in water
and in the Holy Spirit (and all can pray in tongues).
When street witnessing I have come across a few people who have received the
Holy Spirit and have spoken in tongues but have no idea of what this is and
are in the wilderness (so to speak).
We have the opportunity to explain to them what they have received and show
them the scriptures. Then they are invited to come in and to get baptized in water
and to become a member of the body of Christ (as they learn and grow and become
more mature in their walk with the Lord in the Spirit).
The body of Christ is the Spirit-filled church - where we learn, we grow, we share our
burdens and have love and compassion one for another.
Also where we pray much for others with needs either spiritual or worldly.
I received the indwelling Holy Spirit when I was 11 years old way back in 1966,
I stood up from reading comics on our lounge seat and spoke in tongues.
At the time I had no idea what was happening to me.
I may have gained a God consciousness but I was certainly not a member of the
body of Christ and walked in the flesh as well as any other worldly person.
Thirty years later Jesus himself brought me to the Revival Fellowship [a 100%
Pentecostal church] and I spoke out in tongues again; but this time I knew what
it was about and for.
Now I am in a community, in a church, in the body of Christ and can now commit
myself to my walk and to sound doctrine.
the body of Christ is the Spirit-filled church wherein all are baptized in water
and in the Holy Spirit (and all can pray in tongues).
When street witnessing I have come across a few people who have received the
Holy Spirit and have spoken in tongues but have no idea of what this is and
are in the wilderness (so to speak).
We have the opportunity to explain to them what they have received and show
them the scriptures. Then they are invited to come in and to get baptized in water
and to become a member of the body of Christ (as they learn and grow and become
more mature in their walk with the Lord in the Spirit).
The body of Christ is the Spirit-filled church - where we learn, we grow, we share our
burdens and have love and compassion one for another.
Also where we pray much for others with needs either spiritual or worldly.
I received the indwelling Holy Spirit when I was 11 years old way back in 1966,
I stood up from reading comics on our lounge seat and spoke in tongues.
At the time I had no idea what was happening to me.
I may have gained a God consciousness but I was certainly not a member of the
body of Christ and walked in the flesh as well as any other worldly person.
Thirty years later Jesus himself brought me to the Revival Fellowship [a 100%
Pentecostal church] and I spoke out in tongues again; but this time I knew what
it was about and for.
Now I am in a community, in a church, in the body of Christ and can now commit
myself to my walk and to sound doctrine.
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Stunnedbygrace,
I asked the “What do you think speaking in tongues is for?” question because while I was praying about some other things, that question popped up as the single question I should ask you. (I failed in that I couldn’t bring myself to post it verbatim.)
Meanwhile, I went back through some old postings and decided I won’t just throw scriptures back and forth from a heavily defended position. In other words, I’m not willing to shake off the dust of my feet and write you off as though you are just hard-headed and a lost cause.
For similar reasons I didn’t just step in for Waggles and directly answer your query to him. I’ve learned from interactions with others that some direct answers do not bring greater understanding...rather they just bring an end to the conversation. If given a direct answer, without the understanding of WHY, an answer may seem inflamatory, hateful and/or directly contradictory to truth. In other words, I didn’t want to do that and have you wipe off the dust of your feet against ME, and write me off as though I am just hard-headed and a lost cause.
So, in spirit of honest communication, I’ll also volunteer what I mean when I refer to “speaking in tongues” and what I understand it to be for, and how it does or doesn't benefit me in reality, in order that you might understand why I would be so bold as to suggest everyone should have it...and would even say they need to have it. (It just might take more time than I have right now so please grant me some time and grace between posts. Of course, you’re welcome to continue posting...and to send questions my way.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I asked the “What do you think speaking in tongues is for?” question because while I was praying about some other things, that question popped up as the single question I should ask you. (I failed in that I couldn’t bring myself to post it verbatim.)
Meanwhile, I went back through some old postings and decided I won’t just throw scriptures back and forth from a heavily defended position. In other words, I’m not willing to shake off the dust of my feet and write you off as though you are just hard-headed and a lost cause.
For similar reasons I didn’t just step in for Waggles and directly answer your query to him. I’ve learned from interactions with others that some direct answers do not bring greater understanding...rather they just bring an end to the conversation. If given a direct answer, without the understanding of WHY, an answer may seem inflamatory, hateful and/or directly contradictory to truth. In other words, I didn’t want to do that and have you wipe off the dust of your feet against ME, and write me off as though I am just hard-headed and a lost cause.
So, in spirit of honest communication, I’ll also volunteer what I mean when I refer to “speaking in tongues” and what I understand it to be for, and how it does or doesn't benefit me in reality, in order that you might understand why I would be so bold as to suggest everyone should have it...and would even say they need to have it. (It just might take more time than I have right now so please grant me some time and grace between posts. Of course, you’re welcome to continue posting...and to send questions my way.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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This isn't true.
The Holy Spirit comes in as soon as you repent & receive Christ.
It is a down payment/guarantee of our salvation to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [SUP]22 [/SUP] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
There is a Baptism in the Holy Spirit, but that's a different matter altogether.
The Holy Spirit comes in as soon as you repent & receive Christ.
It is a down payment/guarantee of our salvation to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [SUP]22 [/SUP] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
There is a Baptism in the Holy Spirit, but that's a different matter altogether.
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Because the Holy Ghost REGENERATES the sinner, and the New Birth occurs at the moment of believing on Christ (John 1:12,13; Tit 3:4-7). To be saved is to be regenerated, and unless the sinner is baptized WITH the Holy Ghost and thus receives the gift of the Spirit, there can be no regeneration. Please note, I did not say "of" or "in" but with the Holy Ghost.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (Mt 3:11).
On the Day of Pentecost.
ACTS 2
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (Mt 3:11).
On the Day of Pentecost.
ACTS 2
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
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Being born of the Spirit & the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are separate events.
Being born again means born of the Spirit, & that happens immediately at salvation.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event, usually happening later to those who believe in it & are seeking for it.
The disciples were saved when Jesus arose from the dead & put his own blood on the mercy seat in heaven.
He then told the disciples to go to the upper room & stay until endued with power from on high.
Being born again means born of the Spirit, & that happens immediately at salvation.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event, usually happening later to those who believe in it & are seeking for it.
The disciples were saved when Jesus arose from the dead & put his own blood on the mercy seat in heaven.
He then told the disciples to go to the upper room & stay until endued with power from on high.
Yes they are.
Yes, that is when God started talking with me.
I had asked God to allow me to speak in tongues, He said yes. It took a couple of months, but He made good on His promise.
Or maybe when He first called them, that is when it was sealed though not accomplished.
Do we really know when they got part or all of the Holy Spirit? I think we should use our own examples.
Yes, that is when God started talking with me.
I had asked God to allow me to speak in tongues, He said yes. It took a couple of months, but He made good on His promise.
Or maybe when He first called them, that is when it was sealed though not accomplished.
Do we really know when they got part or all of the Holy Spirit? I think we should use our own examples.
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Hi Dave & SoberXP;
I've been struck, I guess, by the Holy Spirit, but, not like it sounds. Rather, intrigued, I guess is a better word.
I heard this sermon by Martin Lloyd-Jones who said we, as Christians, generally speaking, tend to think of Him - the Spirit - as an "it". I might, once, have been guilty of that. But no more. I've never forgotten that and I've been wanting to do a Scriptural Study only on Him, but haven't, unfortunately.
I know one can quench and/or grieve the Spirit. I personally think that ties in with your "surrender" comment, Dave. In surrender (i.e., obedience), we open ourselves to Him and His Instruction, Etc.; thereby glorifying the Father Whose Light shines through us. No doubt that's ideal.
I also think we have to ask Him - well, Jesus First, of course, to come in - but do we also ask the Holy Spirit, too? If we do, is that a regular thing or a one-time thing? What God does - again, I only think - is to pour out the Holy Spirit in a Grander Way, like He did at Pentecost and the Great Revival of the 1850s; or thereabouts.
Thanks!
I've been struck, I guess, by the Holy Spirit, but, not like it sounds. Rather, intrigued, I guess is a better word.
I heard this sermon by Martin Lloyd-Jones who said we, as Christians, generally speaking, tend to think of Him - the Spirit - as an "it". I might, once, have been guilty of that. But no more. I've never forgotten that and I've been wanting to do a Scriptural Study only on Him, but haven't, unfortunately.
I know one can quench and/or grieve the Spirit. I personally think that ties in with your "surrender" comment, Dave. In surrender (i.e., obedience), we open ourselves to Him and His Instruction, Etc.; thereby glorifying the Father Whose Light shines through us. No doubt that's ideal.
I also think we have to ask Him - well, Jesus First, of course, to come in - but do we also ask the Holy Spirit, too? If we do, is that a regular thing or a one-time thing? What God does - again, I only think - is to pour out the Holy Spirit in a Grander Way, like He did at Pentecost and the Great Revival of the 1850s; or thereabouts.
Thanks!
Hi Lewiz,
I don't think it's derailing the thread to talk about tongues, because some believe receiving speaking in tongues is the evidence of someone receiving the Holy Ghost...and as such would be directly tied to a discussion about receiving the Holy Ghost ... BUT, if Soberxp asks me to rather start a new thread, I would honor that request.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I don't think it's derailing the thread to talk about tongues, because some believe receiving speaking in tongues is the evidence of someone receiving the Holy Ghost...and as such would be directly tied to a discussion about receiving the Holy Ghost ... BUT, if Soberxp asks me to rather start a new thread, I would honor that request.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Is the question only for Stunnedbygrace? I'll join nevertheless.
What is the purpose of speaking in tongues?
It was to help in spreading the gospel of the kingdom to all nations as a witness to them. Speaking in tongues is speaking in real languages that happened in two ways:
1. They would speak in their own languages but people from different nationalities and tribes would hear them speak in their own language and therefore understand.
2. They would speak in a foreign language (that they themselves did not understand) but the hearers would understand because it is their own, all these for the glory of God.
Speaking things that the speakers don't understand and the hearers don't understand and doesn't help in any way the kingdom of God is not a sign of anything.
What is the purpose of speaking in tongues?
It was to help in spreading the gospel of the kingdom to all nations as a witness to them. Speaking in tongues is speaking in real languages that happened in two ways:
1. They would speak in their own languages but people from different nationalities and tribes would hear them speak in their own language and therefore understand.
2. They would speak in a foreign language (that they themselves did not understand) but the hearers would understand because it is their own, all these for the glory of God.
Speaking things that the speakers don't understand and the hearers don't understand and doesn't help in any way the kingdom of God is not a sign of anything.
Nehemiah6,
If the Holy Ghost must be given immediately upon belief starting at the day of Pentecost then God didn't get that memo (so to speak) because in the very next occurrence stating WHEN the Holy Ghost was received (Acts 8:5-17) they did NOT receive the Holy Ghost at belief (v.12) or even baptism(v.12) but rather at the laying on of hands (v.17).
And as you know, this same type of delay (although I'm guessing a shorter duration) happened at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-6)
(I'm not posting the verses for sake of space but I pray that people will actually look it up and SEE that it truly is recorded with that much clarity of chronology)
So I’m standing by the statement that receiving the Holy Ghost is a specific, observable event that can happen at some time after belief... before or after baptism… because that’s what the biblical examples support.
Again, I encourage people to look it up for themselves.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
If the Holy Ghost must be given immediately upon belief starting at the day of Pentecost then God didn't get that memo (so to speak) because in the very next occurrence stating WHEN the Holy Ghost was received (Acts 8:5-17) they did NOT receive the Holy Ghost at belief (v.12) or even baptism(v.12) but rather at the laying on of hands (v.17).
And as you know, this same type of delay (although I'm guessing a shorter duration) happened at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-6)
(I'm not posting the verses for sake of space but I pray that people will actually look it up and SEE that it truly is recorded with that much clarity of chronology)
So I’m standing by the statement that receiving the Holy Ghost is a specific, observable event that can happen at some time after belief... before or after baptism… because that’s what the biblical examples support.
Again, I encourage people to look it up for themselves.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Noose,
Thank you for replying. Yes, you are welcome and invited to comment. Please forgive the brevity.
Example #1, misses both clarifications of 1 Corinthians 14:2 about speaking in tongues. A) Not speaking to men. B) No man understands him.
Example #2 also misses both clarifications of what speaking in tongues is, but you did get it right as far as the speaker goes... He is uttering language(s) that he himself doesn't understand. (And you are giving an accurate explanation of what I understand to be the gift of diversities of tongues, which is speaking in earthly languages not because you've learned them but directly by unction of the Holy Ghost)
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Thanks.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thank you for replying. Yes, you are welcome and invited to comment. Please forgive the brevity.
Example #1, misses both clarifications of 1 Corinthians 14:2 about speaking in tongues. A) Not speaking to men. B) No man understands him.
Example #2 also misses both clarifications of what speaking in tongues is, but you did get it right as far as the speaker goes... He is uttering language(s) that he himself doesn't understand. (And you are giving an accurate explanation of what I understand to be the gift of diversities of tongues, which is speaking in earthly languages not because you've learned them but directly by unction of the Holy Ghost)
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Thanks.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
I noticed too late that in my reply the word "unknown" was not italicized. In the KJV, words that are italicized were added to hopefully clarify meaning. You probably already knew that but I added this comment for anyone that didn't.
I noticed too late that in my reply the word "unknown" was not italicized. In the KJV, words that are italicized were added to hopefully clarify meaning. You probably already knew that but I added this comment for anyone that didn't.