YHVH + Jesus + Holy Spirit

[Dutch41]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hoi Ponder,[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I hope I can gave you an answer at all your reply..[/FONT]


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That is totally incorrect and just about every scholar will disagree with your conclusion here. ALL CHURCHES did not just speak ONLY Greek nor were the Scriptures they used only in Greek. Jesus Christ did not speak in Greek when He went into the Temple and the Synagogues in Jerusalem or Judea or in some of the other surrounding towns in order to teach or debate with the Pharisees. They probably would have thrown Him out or outright stoned them on the spot in some of those places.

And neither did the Apostles when they were doing the same thing in the same places. And neither was the Septuagint used exclusively in those places.

On the other hand, the Jews of the Diaspora, living in Greek cities and other nations, would have been the ones more in need of a Greek version of the OT.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well, actually I didn't say: they ONLY, speak Greek. I said: All the churches spoke the Greek language. And I think the most of the scholar agree with me with this. The common language was Koine Greek. (I think every scholar do agree with me) (for more information you can use wikipedia). Not everybody spoke Latin, or Aramaic.. but everybody spoke Greek.[/FONT]


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The languages spoken at that time were Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and likely Latin as well. The Jews were and still are very zealous of their heritage and they would have used Hebrew to communicate with each other. In fact, the Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The most Jews in Israel in the time of Jesus didn't speak Hebrew. Sorry.. it was mostly Aramaic. You said. In fact the Gospel of Matthew is written in Hebrew.. Well, there are some scholars who think this.. But the most of them, they think it is in the Greek languages. But we have to understand, that if it was written in the Hebrew languages, it was written in a dialect languages.. or probably Aramaic. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But to say: the gospel is written in Hebrew languages.. that is what we can't prove.[/FONT]


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On the other hand, the Jews of the Diaspora, living in Greek cities and other nations, would have been the ones more in need of a Greek version of the OT.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yes, sure.. I agree complete with this.. but we have to understand that allmost all of the new believers in Christ,.. spoke Greek...and not Hebrew. So they need the Greek version too. I don't think you can't deny this. There was a version in the Bible that all believers understood.. and that is the Septuaginta.[/FONT]


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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To prove this I will show some, what is written in the book of Corinthe:
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

The Septuaginta
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent.

The MT (Masoretic Text):
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

And I will show another quote:

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Septuaginta
Psalms 93:11The Lord knows the thoughts of men, that they are vain.

MT
Psalms 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity. [/FONT]

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But the question I have is what exactly are you trying to say by pointing all this out?

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What I would say by this? Well I will explain: When there is written: There is only one Kurios... that mean.. there aren't more Kurios as one.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Like you say in the text in 1Cor 8:6[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord (Kurios) Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I will take for example the text in 1 Cor 3:20. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Kurios knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Paul use this quote from the OT, from Ps 94:11. And the Hebrew text said:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]YHWH knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Septuaginta said: The Kurios, knows the thoughts of men, that they are vain.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The point is.. if Paul say: There is one Kurios... like he said in 1Cor 8:6.. that mean.. all the text with the title Kurios is meaning that is Jesus. So 1 Cor 3:20 is meaning Jesus knoweth the thought of the wise, that they are vain..[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And when you read, the context: Vs 19.. it said[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness";[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]20 and again, "The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You can understand that with the word... the Lord.. is meaning God. Or actually.. the word Kurios is meaning... God.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The answer is: Jesus is the Kurios and He is God.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If Paul didn't thaught not an different teaching, he said: Jesus is God.[/FONT]


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The same question I have asked you above applies to your comments here as well.

But let’s look at your Mark verse in more detail and let’s quote a bit more of the context. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, was having a question and answer debate, if you will, with the Sadducees and Pharisees in the temple. I will use the Greek equivalent in place of “Lord”. I will also use Matthew’s version of the account instead of Mark’s. It says the same thing:

Matt 22:41-45 “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `KURIOS,' saying: `The KURIOS said to my KURIOS, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him `KURIOS,' how is He his Son?"

Verse 37 in Matthew and verse 29 in Mark, are direct quotes of:

Psa. 110:1 “A Psalm of David. The KURIOS said unto my KURIOS, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now, who do you suppose is David’s “KURIOS”? And who is “THE KURIOS“ that is instructing David’s “KURIOS?

By the way, which language do you think Jesus was using when He spoke in these verses?

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well I think with this text you prove Jesus is God well done. And the same you can see in the Hebrew languages..[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How many Lords did David know?... And can you answer this? If David calls Him (Jesus) Kurios, how can Jesus be His son.. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Read the complete context and pray.. and you will see.. that it mean, Jesus is God.[/FONT]


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The Corinthians would have thought exactly what Paul said to them: that in the heavens and in the earth there are many THEOS and many KURIOS but that TO US there was ONE THEOS, the Father and ONE KURIOS, Jesus Christ and that NOT MANY knew this fact.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well the demonic powers called them self theos, and kurios... but actually there is one God, and Kurios.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And when we read the Bible with open eyes,.. we will see that..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As example I will quote;[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid. Have not I told thee from that time and have declared it? Ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Yea, there is no God. I know not any."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is one of the many verses that there is one God. And no one else...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Pls read vs 5)[/FONT]


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4 Concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but One.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5 For though there be what are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many "gods" and many "lords"),[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]6 yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we by Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Some are called gods.. but they aren't... the same is for Lords.. And this mean..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]when we read the Shema in the Pentateuch:[/FONT]
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Hear, O Israel, The Kurios our God is one Kurios

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So the context of this verse showed you.. that you have to change your vision about this. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus is Lord and God..[/FONT]

 

[Dutch41]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hoi Ponder[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

But I did give an answer to that question in posts 72 and 76 but you just did not have the “eyes” to see it. You are so intent in examining the bark on the tree that you are unable to see the tree itself.

Let me try and do this in another way. Jesus Christ, the Lord IS:

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• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The WORD (VOICE) of the SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER, who no one has heard. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The BEGINNING of the creation of the SUPREME GOD, THE FATHER. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The SON of the LIVING GOD, THE FATHER, Who is the SUPREME GOD. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Called GOD because HIS FATHER IS THE SUPREME GOD Who is HIS GOD. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Referred to as YHWH because HIS FATHER’S NAME IS YHWH and He REPRESENTS THE FATHER to HIS CREATURES. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Are you able to “see” yet?

[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well I see what you write. But maybe you are right and I don't have the eye's like you. So please made it some simple for me.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The question is simple: Who was Jesus before He became a human? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There are 4 easy possibility's[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A: He is the Lord[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]B: He was an angel[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]C: He was a human[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]D: He was nothing.. [/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When you say: He is the firstborn, what do you mean by this.. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Do you mean: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A. He is the first creation?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]B. Do you mean He is the first heir[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Old Testament is clear.. There is one God, nobody else is called God. Beside YHWH..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus was God, and became a human.. (Phil 2:6)[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

When you say Jesus is God, are you saying that He is God the Father? That Jesus is the ALMIGHTY God?

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Well I don't say it.. it is the Bible that say that. I hope the Lord will open your eyes to make it clear to you. [/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

It must be nice to be able to take a trip like that. Have an enjoyable a safe trip.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It was really a good trip. [/FONT]

 

[mpaper345]

That bewilders people,how Jesus can be God when He was in flesh,for people view God as greater than that.

That is what threw off the Jews is how can Jesus be God,when God is an omnipresent Spirit,for Jesus did claim to be God when He said,before Abraham was,I am.

The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God.

No matter how high the highest heaven,God is bigger than that.

When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh it means that God manifested all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,making the man Christ Jesus the literal human body of the one true God,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for the heaven of heavens cannot contain God and God cannot be separated.

God manifest in the flesh does not make another God,but it is the human manifestation of the one true God and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.

Take a tub of water and submerge a cup in that water,the water fills the cup and the water in the cup is still connected to the water in the tub.
That is like Jesus,God's Spirit cannot be separated.The Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.It does not make Jesus another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and is God's personal human body that He will keep for all eternity,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

People are trying to make Jesus a created god or a second person of a trinity,when Jesus is God the Father in a bodily manifestation,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God is in all and through all,and we are in God and we have our movement and being because of Him.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 43:10-11).

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

Jesus is The everlasting Father according to His deity,and He is the Prince of Peace according to His humanity.

13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:13-16).

God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same throughout His omnipresent Spirit with no distinction of persons.

God is in all and through all.

God cannot be separated.

God manifest all His attributes to His Son,the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,is God the Father's permanent human manifestation,and now a glorified body,and the way the saints will see the invsible God.

It does not make Jesus a created god or second person of a trinity,but God the Father robing His Spirit in flesh so we can see God the Father,a bodily manifestation of the invisible God.

The Bible says nobody can see Jesus according to Him being God the Father,but we can see Jesus the Father in a bodily manifestation.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so it is the name of both God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?(Proverbs 30:4).

The Father and Son would share the same name when God appears in flesh.


3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they(Hebrews 1:3-4).

The Father's name is Jesus and the Son inherited that name from His Father.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive(John 5:43).

Jesus came in His Father's name which is Jesus.

Jesus is our heavenly Father,who created all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the hearts of the saints.

Jesus is telling us in the book of Matthew to baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost which is Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).

God the Father is saying when He shows up in flesh,He will speak to His people,behold it is Him,God with us,if you have seen Jesus then you have seen the Father.

Honor Jesus for who He is,the one true God,and stop making Him second place or a created god.

Matt

 

[Dutch41]

That bewilders people,how Jesus can be God when He was in flesh,for people view God as greater than that.

That is what threw off the Jews is how can Jesus be God,when God is an omnipresent Spirit,for Jesus did claim to be God when He said,before Abraham was,I am.

The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God.

No matter how high the highest heaven,God is bigger than that.

When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh it means that God manifested all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,making the man Christ Jesus the literal human body of the one true God,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for the heaven of heavens cannot contain God and God cannot be separated.

God manifest in the flesh does not make another God,but it is the human manifestation of the one true God and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.

Take a tub of water and submerge a cup in that water,the water fills the cup and the water in the cup is still connected to the water in the tub.
That is like Jesus,God's Spirit cannot be separated.The Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.It does not make Jesus another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and is God's personal human body that He will keep for all eternity,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

People are trying to make Jesus a created god or a second person of a trinity,when Jesus is God the Father in a bodily manifestation,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God is in all and through all,and we are in God and we have our movement and being because of Him.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 43:10-11).

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

Jesus is The everlasting Father according to His deity,and He is the Prince of Peace according to His humanity.

13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6:13-16).

God is an omnipresent Spirit and is the same throughout His omnipresent Spirit with no distinction of persons.

God is in all and through all.

God cannot be separated.

God manifest all His attributes to His Son,the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

The Son,the man Christ Jesus,is God the Father's permanent human manifestation,and now a glorified body,and the way the saints will see the invsible God.

It does not make Jesus a created god or second person of a trinity,but God the Father robing His Spirit in flesh so we can see God the Father,a bodily manifestation of the invisible God.

The Bible says nobody can see Jesus according to Him being God the Father,but we can see Jesus the Father in a bodily manifestation.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so it is the name of both God the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?(Proverbs 30:4).

The Father and Son would share the same name when God appears in flesh.


3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they(Hebrews 1:3-4).

The Father's name is Jesus and the Son inherited that name from His Father.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive(John 5:43).

Jesus came in His Father's name which is Jesus.

Jesus is our heavenly Father,who created all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the hearts of the saints.

Jesus is telling us in the book of Matthew to baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost which is Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost comes in the name of Jesus.

Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).

God the Father is saying when He shows up in flesh,He will speak to His people,behold it is Him,God with us,if you have seen Jesus then you have seen the Father.

Honor Jesus for who He is,the one true God,and stop making Him second place or a created god.

Matt

Hoi Matt I agree with you!

 

[Ponderer]

Hoi Dutch,


I see you are back.

I hope I can gave you an answer at all your reply.

I was hoping that you would have too but, sigh, you didn’t.

Well, actually I didn't say: they ONLY, speak Greek. I said: All the churches spoke the Greek language. And I think the most of the scholar agree with me with this. The common language was Koine Greek. (I think every scholar do agree with me) (for more information you can use wikipedia). Not everybody spoke Latin, or Aramaic.. but everybody spoke Greek.

Well, actually you did. And I was not arguing what Greek dialect was in vogue at the time. You should have quoted the rest of what you said, but let me help you out and do that for you now. This is what you said in post 96. Note the bolded portions:

“We have to understand that all of the Churches in that time, spoke the Greek language. And their Bible was actually not the Hebrew Bible, (because they couldn't read and speak it), but the Greek language”.

If by you saying that all of the Churches couldn’t read or speak but the Greek language, then what else were you trying to say?

Look, my point in the first half of the post, was to show you that the Septuagint was not the ONLY Bible that was used, especially in those places I mentioned.

I also know that your intent is to make the Septuagint as the only form of Scripture that was available at the time and on that score you are totally WRONG!

In addition, I did not disagree that: GOD = LORD = KURIOS = YHWH. How about that!

However, you lack understanding of the relationship that the Scriptures reveal exists between those titles and that Name and who is who and why.

Incidentally, the Wikipedia is not exactly the most scholarly work around.

The most Jews in Israel in the time of Jesus didn't speak Hebrew. Sorry.. it was mostly Aramaic.

As I pointed out in my post, they spoke and understood BOTH! Otherwise why say this in the Scriptures?

Luke 23:38 “And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

Now, why would they do something like that if everybody knew Greek anyway??

Acts 21:40, 22:1-3 “And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying, Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith, I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.”

Here again, why would Paul not speak in the Greek language so that EVERYBODY could understand him? Because he was talking to a specific group of people.

Acts 2:6-11 “And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans? And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.

See also: John 5:2; John 19:13,17, 20; John 22:2; John 26:14; Rev. 9:1; Rev. 16:16.

But to say: the gospel is written in Hebrew languages.. that is what we can't prove.

That is……until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.

Like you say in the text in 1Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord (Kurios) Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So far so good!

You can understand that with the word... the Lord.. is meaning God. Or actually.. the word Kurios is meaning... God.

You are still doing okay here, except for one minor detail. It is true, Jesus Christ is the Lord and He is God also……but……..HE IS NOT THE GOD. HE IS NOT THE MOST HIGH GOD! The Most High God is HIS GOD and HIS FATHER. But you already know that, don’t you?

The answer is: Jesus is the Kurios and He is God.

That is what the Scriptures teach alright…….but they also teach that……..HE IS NOT THE GOD. HE IS NOT THE MOST HIGH GOD.

If Paul didn't thaught not an different teaching, he said: Jesus is God.

Yeah, but Paul didn’t say Jesus Christ is THE MOST HIGH GOD!


Ponderer

 

[Ponderer]

Hello Dutch,

The same question I have asked you above applies to your comments here as well.

But let’s look at your Mark verse in more detail and let’s quote a bit more of the context. Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, was having a question and answer debate, if you will, with the Sadducees and Pharisees in the temple. I will use the Greek equivalent in place of “Lord”. I will also use Matthew’s version of the account instead of Mark’s. It says the same thing:

Matt 22:41-45 “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `KURIOS,' saying: `The KURIOS said to my KURIOS, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him `KURIOS,' how is He his Son?"

Verse 37 in Matthew and verse 29 in Mark, are direct quotes of:

Psa. 110:1 “A Psalm of David. The KURIOS said unto my KURIOS, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now, who do you suppose is David’s “KURIOS”? And who is “THE KURIOS“ that is instructing David’s “KURIOS?

Well I think with this text you prove Jesus is God well done. And the same you can see in the Hebrew languages.

It sure does…….but…….JESUS IS NOT THE MOST HIGH GOD!

How many Lords did David know?... And can you answer this? If David calls Him (Jesus) Kurios, how can Jesus be His son.

Now you are getting confused because that is exactly what Jesus Christ was trying to point out to the Pharisees. See my next comment.

Read the complete context and pray.. and you will see.. that it mean, Jesus is God.

Oh okay, but just to let you know again, even though Jesus is God, He is NOT the MOST HIGH GOD. Now, let’s do this one more time but with a commentary to go along with it.

In Matthew 22:41-45 while the Pharisees were all gathered together, Jesus Christ asks them what they thought of the Christ, WHOSE SON is He?

Did you catch that? The KURIOS asks them WHOSE SON did they think the Christ is. To be a SON suggests having a FATHER??

And just like the “blind bats” that they were, the Pharisees tell Him that His father is David, that He is the Son of David. Well, Jesus now had them were He wanted them and proceeds to expose their “spiritual blindness”.

Jesus then says to them, so if the CHRIST is the Son of David then how is it that David, by inspiration of Holy Spirit, calls Him (Christ) LORD, by saying: YHWH (the Father) said to my LORD (Christ), sit at my right hand (YHWH’s) until I (YHWH) make your (CHRIST’s) enemies your (CHRIST’s) footstool.

Remember, the topic of discussion is: Whose SON is the CHRIST!

Worth repeating:

Psa. 110:1 “JHWH saith unto my LORD (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”


Matt 22:41-45 “While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `KURIOS,' saying: `The KURIOS said to my KURIOS, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him `KURIOS,' how is He his Son?"


Therefore:

1Cor. 8:6 “Yet to us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through whom are all things, and we through him.”

…..... but actually there is one God, and Kurios.

No, no, no, not according to the Scriptures because it teaches that there is One God, the Father (out of Whom) and One Lord (i.e. the SON) Jesus Christ (through Whom).

Once you understand how “out of one” and “through another” works, your understanding of the Scriptures will improve considerably!

By the way, are you saying that Jesus Christ, the Lord and the Father, the Most High God are one and the same being? YES or NO?

So the context of this verse showed you.. that you have to change your vision about this.

And when you change your vision to the Truth of God’s Word, you will understand the Majesty and Glory of the Most High God, the Father and that of His Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ.

Jesus is Lord and God..

Again I ask you:are you saying that the Most High God, the Father and Jesus Christ, the Lord, are one and the same being? YES or NO?

I asked you in my last post for you to tell me who do you say is:

A – The Most High God, the Father – Is He Jesus Christ, the Lord? YES or NO?

B – The Lord Jesus Christ – Is He the Most High God, the Father? YES or NO?

C – The Son – Is He the Most High God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord both? YES or NO?

D – Holy Spirit – Is the Holy Spirit the Most High God, the Father and Jesus Christ, the Lord? YES or NO?

but you did not respond. I will ask you again so that a simple YES or NO will suffice. Thanks.

Ponderer

 

[MahogonySnail]

The bible says Jesus was under the Father's authority while on earth:

Joh 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I am leaving, but I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I.


THe bible says that Jesus is under the Father's authority in heaven and will be for all eternity:

1Co 15:28 But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

Therefore Jesus is NOT the Father and not equal in authority or power except as the Father gives him that authority and power.

 

[Ponderer]

The bible says Jesus was under the Father's authority while on earth:

Joh 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I am leaving, but I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I.


THe bible says that Jesus is under the Father's authority in heaven and will be for all eternity:

1Co 15:28 But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

Therefore Jesus is NOT the Father and not equal in authority or power except as the Father gives him that authority and power.

MahogonySnail:

Excellent comments and references, short and to the point. I wish I could do that!

 

[ibewhoibe]

The bible says Jesus was under the Father's authority while on earth:

Joh 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I am leaving, but I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I.


THe bible says that Jesus is under the Father's authority in heaven and will be for all eternity:

1Co 15:28 But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

Therefore Jesus is NOT the Father and not equal in authority or power except as the Father gives him that authority and power.

Greetings,

OK Then Guys, Looks like we have Check-Mate Again,

Thank You MahogonySnai for doing it so simple!!!

I Love The Lord Jesus Christ, and Our Father who is in Heaven,

Praise God!! and His letter to us The Bible!!

" I Be a Disciple Of Jesus Christ "

 

[livingbygrace]

The bible says Jesus was under the Father's authority while on earth:

Joh 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I am leaving, but I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I.


THe bible says that Jesus is under the Father's authority in heaven and will be for all eternity:

1Co 15:28 But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

Therefore Jesus is NOT the Father and not equal in authority or power except as the Father gives him that authority and power.

It is good to see the plain truth of scripture being put forth

 

[forerunner]

It is good to see the plain truth of scripture being put forth

You do realize Mahogony was a hard ore trinitarian who believe those who were not were not saved

 

[livingbygrace]

You do realize Mahogony was a hard ore trinitarian who believe those who were not were not saved

I am not commenting on all of Mahogany's beliefs, only what he has written in this post

 

[forerunner]

I am not commenting on all of Mahogany's beliefs, only what he has written in this post

Understood...........

 

[livingbygrace]

You do realize Mahogony was a hard ore trinitarian who believe those who were not were not saved

The Pharisees and Saducees spent much time condemning others. If anyone was doctinally pure it had to be them. But they did not know the most important things of all.

Mercy, justice, compassion and of course love

I am sure many of them would have said that in love they were simply telling others the truth. But they were driven by a certain charictaristic. And it was this that was their downfall

I do not say I am always right. The Apostle Paul said he knew in part, then he would know fully. I know that the part I know is far less than the part he knew.

But it is in the heart we are justified as Pater said. And if we come humbly before God with a contrite heart this is what pleases him. An Evangelist once said.

If we believe that Jesus is the Son of God that he died for our sins on the cross and that if we repent of our sin and ask him into our lives as Lord and Saviour we are saved. Whatever other differences we may have we should be able to unite around this core of our faith

But as in Jesus time many do not understand what is most important. Maybe it is because the same charicteristic that drove the Pharisees and Saducees then drives many also today

 

[TheManofGod]

I read this and it is very interesting and something I want to study further. But I am trying to fit one scripture into this theory and it isn't making sense...

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

That would make Lord and God the same being. Not God and Lord seperate?

The Word "LORD" in Mark 12:29 is a quote from Deut. 6:4 "Hear O Israel, The LORD (YHWH) our God is one LORD (YHWH).

Exodus 6:3 KJV "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (YHWH) was I not known to them."

 

[TheManofGod]

Technically speaking:

YHWH+ YHWH (Jehovah) is Salvation + ELOHIM (God is Spirit John 4:24) = God, with a distinction on Salvation so you could say JESUS CHRIST

YHWH was the name of God revealed in the First Covenant with the Children of Israel.
Iesous/Yehoshua is the name of God revealed in the New Covenant (testament) with the Church (called out ones)


When you say Jesus you proclaim the Salvation of God (for He shall save His people from their sins).

When you say Christ you refer to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World. Note: The name of God is only mentioned in covenant. The title Christ (as the Lamb of God) is a direct reference to the door and way by which we perceive the Love of God (1 John 3:16 and Romans 5:8). Christ (the Lamb) is the propitiation for our salvation and the mediator between us and God (1 Tim. 2:5, 1 John 1:1-2). The word Christ means "anointed one". God can not be anointed (unless you go outside of God or are equal with God), He (God) is the anointing. Hence, Christ is always referring to the sacrifice of God.

When you say Son of God you refer directly to the incarnation of God in Christ (the MAN the Christ). For in him dwells the fulness of the Godhead (divinity or Godness) bodily (see Col. 2:8-9). The Word was MADE (genomai = to cause to exist, to begin, etc.) flesh and dwelt amongst us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth (see John 1:14). It is He (the Son of God) who declares the Father (see John 1:18) and when you have seen Him (the Son of God) you have seen the Father (see John 14:9) because He (the Son of God) is the exact expression (express image) of the invisible God (see Heb. 1:3, Col. 1:15).

When you say Son of Man you refer directly to the MAN Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time (see 1 Tim. 2:5-6). He was born of a virgin and MADE (genomai = to cause to exist, to begin, etc.) of woman (see Gal. 4:4, Luke 1:27-35, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6). For it pleased the Father (the Holy Ghost was the father) that in Him (the Man Christ Jesus) should all fulness dwell (see Col. 1:19). The Man Christ Jesus was tempted in all points like we are but He did not sin (see Heb. 4:15).

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

And Jesus spent a good deal of time correcting the Pharisees and Saducees. You see he didn't like false teaching. They didn't appreciate it either.

Oneness and the word "person" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[TheManofGod]

And Jesus spent a good deal of time correcting the Pharisees and Saducees. You see he didn't like false teaching. They didn't appreciate it either.

Oneness and the word "person" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[TheManofGod]

What was wrong with my post? Was it not how you would say things? Do you assume I am of a particular group/sect of believers so you assume I am a pharisee? or are you just bantering AgeofKnowledge?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

What was wrong with my post? Was it not how you would say things? Do you assume I am of a particular group/sect of believers so you assume I am a pharisee? or are you just bantering AgeofKnowledge?

I was just responding to a post from another person. You picked up on it. No worries. God bless them with truth and God bless you in every way The Man of God. Nice to meet you by the way. Peace.